95 replies to this topic

[Skylarr]

I have never really played Warhammer 40k. Friends of mine and players in my unit argue which would win.

ProtoMech vs Breadnought

Elemental vs power Armor

[Adridos]

No point in comparison, my friend.

As a general rule of a thumb, Warhammer 40k always wins no matter what.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Yep. WH40k and BT are incomparable. First of all, the Empire would take one look at mechs and call in the Titan legions. The smallest "scout" titan is around the size of an Atlas, fasters, and capable of killing entire tank divisions.

The big ones are capable of firing munitions the size of a SDR.

[Stormwolf]

40K I suppose, you can't really compare the two though.

[Nerroth]

If one fudged the period of overlap between the Age of Terra and the (Dark) Age of Technology, one could place the current BT setting as being akin to the future-history of the other franchise's Earth prior to the dawn of "true" Warp travel; only without the Emperor working behind the scenes to usurpguide the course of human development. (Before humans developed the Navigator gene, the kind of Warp travel possible at that time was arguably no better than, say, the "Warp dives" developed for use by the Kor'vattra on the other side of the galaxy in a later time period.)

Of any of the powers of that setting, perhaps the most compatible at this point would be the Tau Empire. The kind of dive limits placed upon tau starships isn't too far off of the jump restrictions affecting standard K-F drives, while the technology base in use by the Kor'vattra and the Shas caste might be able to play a little better with the planet- and space-based military assets of the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Nerroth, 13 June 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Shumabot]

If we assume parity in technology I'd give the win to the protomech assuming the dread lacked plot armor. It's a terrible and slow design with one gun. With plot armor the dreadnaught would use its 1000 years of experience and impossible skill to move its tiny urbanmech body in a way that destroys the proto easily.

The power armored marine would probably beat the elemental because it's housing a 200 year old genius ultra skilled superman who can bench press a truck without his armor and who clots instantly and has several hearts.

[ElysianHarbinger]

Blood Angels have flying physic Dreadnought. . . . . Any argument that 'Mechs can kill Dreadnoughts, can have a Blood Lance to the face.

[Parliment]

Pointless...being a fan of both no real way to work them out fairly. to many factions in 40k to wok out vs. mehs etc etc

[Nauht]

I think the more interesting question would be which universe would you rather live in? Given you could choose what you'd be.

[mania3c]

Nauht, on 13 June 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

I think the more interesting question would be which universe would you rather live in? Given you could choose what you'd be.

I want be an ork.. can I be ork In battletech? It would be awesome..

[James The Fox Dixon]

BattleTech beats TheftHammer 40k any day of the week. FASA did their best to create new ideas in their universe while GW steals everything that isn't nailed down and claims its theirs.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 June 2013 - 06:59 AM.

[RatBast]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 June 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

BattleTech beats TheftHammer 40k any day of the week. FASA did their best to create new ideas in their universe while GW steals everything that isn't nailed down and claims its theirs.

While that is certainly true *later on*, Battletech began with the direct theft of mecha designs from other properties (Macross, etc).

[Adridos]

RatBast, on 14 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

While that is certainly true *later on*, Battletech began with the direct theft of mecha designs from other properties (Macross, etc).

It wasn't theft at all.

They legally bought the designs, just couldn't pay for the court expenses when other company that also bought them (yeah, it's the Japanese who screwed up) tried to sue them and had to remove them.

In 2009, I believe, the Japan held the court and it turned out FASA was actually the one which owned the rights and the other company was teh real stealer... but FASA was already gone for years, so it doesn't help anything besides proving our point.

[Ralgas]

even trying to give the weapons parity with regard to each other is giving me a headache.

[James The Fox Dixon]

RatBast, on 14 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

While that is certainly true *later on*, Battletech began with the direct theft of mecha designs from other properties (Macross, etc).

Repeating a lie enough does not make it the truth. FASA legally licensed the designs from Studio Nue before HG got the marketing license from Tatsunoko. Tatsunoko had given HG certain rights that they did not have like the copyrights to the mech and character designs etc... It took the Japanese Courts in 2002 to rule that Tatsunoko only owned the copyrights to the animation itself that was Super Dimensional Fortress Macross and Southern Cross while Studio Nue owned the mech and character designs. Tatsunoko appealed and in 2006 the Japanese Supreme Court upheld the original appellate decision. This is why HG's latest animation attempts do not have any mech and character designs from Macross and Southern Cross. In Shadow Chronicles they had to alter the looks of all the Macross characters to comply with the Japanese court decisions.

In 2002, HG was issued an injunction to stop producing Macross/Southern Cross mechs etc... as well as to prevent them from stopping the importation of Macross related items that were labeled as such by Big West. Big West is a partner of Studio Nue when they created Macross and Southern Cross.

Due to the Japanese court rulings, Catalyst Games has been able to bring back some of the unseen under new licenses from their creators Studio Nue and Nippon Sunrise.

One of HG's egregious actions was to trademark Macross across the world when they lacked the right to do so. This doesn't make Big West/Studio Nue happy, so they refuse to deal with HG at all.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Skoaljaw]

No way to compare them fairly unless you look at the franchises themselves. If you did, Games Workshop would mostly likely win out because they both started around the same time-frame, and only Games Workshop has retained the rights to the majority of its gaming apparatus as well as gained world-wide fame,acclaim, and monetary success. Battletech/Mechwarrior has been sold out to many 3rd parties throughout the years once Fasa gave up/lost interest in the rights to the game which I would imagine had something to do with the mech ideas that were used from Robotech.

[Kaiser Thermidor]

I admit, I'm not horribly well versed on either BattleTech (I like MechWarrior, that's about it when it comes to BT), nor on Codex-approved 40k (I mostly read the novels and enjoy the lore and aesthetics, don't play TT). So, don't take anything I say too seriously, though I'll be the first to admit I had some fun trying to fairly compare the two in my own way.

On one hand, ProtoMechs and Dreadnoughts, though pretty different in their respective settings, both fill mostly the same role: an armoured, mechanized counter to infantry, or a "light" anti-armour platform, possibly comparable to modern IFVs (Infantry Fighting Vehicles). While in they have some differences in terms of how they are described, and that leads to questions about how those descriptions line up, i.e. is ProtoMech Ferro-Fiberous armour comparable to adamantium armour, or is a Twin-Linked Lascannon on par with a Medium Laser, we'll (try to) side-step that neatly by simply looking at their roles and what they are expected to do in their settings.

Starting with the one I'm more familiar with, a Dreadnought has generally two configurations: anti-infantry, or anti-armour. Assault Cannons will chew through troops, and Twin-Linked Lascannons will punch a hole in most tanks smartly. They are also expected to be able to excel in CQC, namely melee, with thier Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon (basically huge robot fist).

Then, ProtoMechs, according to what I read on Sarna.net, are mostly anti-infantry, with some capacity for anti-armour, though with their lack of heavy weapons like Large Lasers, I'm not sure how effective they might be in that role. They aren't especially heavily armoured, as I understand it, mostly being suited for resisting small-arms fire, i.e. infantry or possibly light crew-served weapons.

In the end, going back to likening them to IFVs (which may or may not be fair), it would probably go to which ever had the anti-armour weapons. Since ProtoMechs seem to lack the punch to tackle anything with a thick metal skin, it would probably go to the Hellfire Dreadnought (dedicated anti-tank type, IIRC). It's like sending a Stryker with a .50 cal against a Stryker with an RPG-7, or such.

Elementals v. Adeptus Astartes is much more reasonable, as they are essentially the same thing within their universes: elite, genetically engineered supersoliders with the best equipment they can get. Frankly, if we are going to assume technological parity between the two, it's going to be a cointoss.
Personally, though, I'd lean towards 40k, just because the setting is so grimdark. 40k is every trope every turned up to 11, so surely their "badass supersoldiers" are just that much more badass. But that's purely subjective and because I have an admitted bias towards 40k, based on aesthetics and HYDRA DOMINATUS.

But, basically...

Ralgas, on 14 June 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

even trying to give the weapons parity with regard to each other is giving me a headache.

This. ^
Though it was so worth it.

ElysianHarbinger, on 13 June 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Blood Angels have flying physic Dreadnought. . . . . Any argument that 'Mechs can kill Dreadnoughts, can have a Blood Lance to the face.

I like how I can go into a 40k thread anywhere and see you talking about your psychic flying Dreadnoughts, Harby.

[RatBast]

Adridos, on 14 June 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

It wasn't theft at all.

They legally bought the designs, just couldn't pay for the court expenses when other company that also bought them (yeah, it's the Japanese who screwed up) tried to sue them and had to remove them.

In 2009, I believe, the Japan held the court and it turned out FASA was actually the one which owned the rights and the other company was teh real stealer... but FASA was already gone for years, so it doesn't help anything besides proving our point.

I'm not referring to 'legal theft'. the criticism of GW was based upon it copying the IP of other franchises (at least, that is what I assumed was meant by 'Thefthammer'.. or at least, that is the only interpretation that makes sense). You can't be more of a 'copycat' than outright using the mecha designs from other properties instead of designing your own, which is what early Battletech did. Sure, 40k Tyranids (for example) may be heavily influenced by the Alien franchise, but they didn't outright use H.R. Giger's xenomorph design, at least.

Edited by RatBast, 14 June 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Skylarr]

Unseen/Reseen?

[James The Fox Dixon]

RatBast, on 14 June 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm not referring to 'legal theft'. the criticism of GW was based upon it copying the IP of other franchises (at least, that is what I assumed was meant by 'Thefthammer'.. or at least, that is the only interpretation that makes sense). You can't be more of a 'copycat' than outright using the mecha designs from other properties instead of designing your own, which is what early Battletech did. Sure, 40k Tyranids (for example) may be heavily influenced by the Alien franchise, but they didn't outright use H.R. Giger's xenomorph design, at least.

The difference between the two is obvious. FASA licensed the designs and built up a back story for those mechs that fit within the universe they designed. GW is famous for lifting entire premises and ideas then implementing them into their universe. A good example would be tyrannids, Sisters of Battle, etc... Tyrannids are a direct rip-off of the work of HG Geiger and Ridley Scott. Sisters of Battle are a rip-off of Renegade Nuns with Guns RPG first published in 1989. The first Codex: Sisters of Battle was published in 1997. Tau are the greys popularized by UFO stories and so on and so forth.

My favorite is GW claiming trademark status of the word Space Marine, which was first used by Bob Olsen in 1932. Yes, GW has made a legal claim to the word Space Marine and is fighting legally to protect it. GW doesn't create anything new, but steals from others freely then claiming they invented it. This is the difference between BattleTech and Thefthammer.