233 replies to this topic

[Hellcat420]

MeiSooHaityu, on 14 June 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I use Catapults quite a bit (my favorite mech currently in the game), and I do not get head shot that often. I must have played about 20 games last night with various Cats (C1, K2, and A1) and did get head shot once.

It definently has higher odds (because I don't get head shot in ANY other mech), but it is far from a huge hinderance.

If you don't want to get head shot, keep moving. The only time I seem to loose my head, is when I am popping over cover (lining up a shot) to shoot PPCs or LLasers and I am looking straight at the target with no side-to-side movement.

Actually when I brawl (moving around, circling, and ducking in and out of cover), I almost never get head shot.

Basically, sniping can be dangerous with the Cat but actually mixing it up doesn't seem to be too bad.


P.S. People who say Cats like the C1 can't brawl, have never really tried. They just believe that for some reason. My 2+ KDR as a PUG with this mech says otherwise *shrug*

its not that they cant brawl, its that they were not made to brawl, which is why the cat has the drawback of a huge cockpit that is a downside when trying to brawl with it.

Edited by Hellcat420, 17 June 2013 - 09:56 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

...Regardless of the "support mech" label people are tossing out, the K2 doesn't fit into that category...

The other Cats don't necessarily fall into that role either. A mech fills the role you make it for. If I wanted a JJ 2 LRM15 Cat C1, I would make one and fill a support role. If I wanted a C1 w/ 2 ERPPCs, 2 MLasers, and no missiles (just DHS), I could make a sniper. If I wanted (and do have) a 2LLaser, 2MLaser, and 2 SRM6+Art Cat C1, I could make a Brawler.

This is the same for any other mech. There might be mechs harder to tweak to any specific given role, but well rounded loadout mechs will fill the roll you make for it.

The head hitbox currently on the Catapult doesn't nerf it into a LRM boat only. I, like many people, have not had huge head shot issues with the mech. Just need to stay mobile and hard to hit.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hellcat420, on 17 June 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

... drawback of a huge cockpit that is a downside when trying to brawl with it...

Disagree. The head hitbox is often less of a problem when brawling. The Cat suffers headshots MORE as a sniper or a LRM support mech because it ISN'T MOVING, or is moving back and forth and not side to side.

Actually, that is more of an argument against the head hitbox if anything. If the Cat is only supposed to be a support mech, it shouldn't be that easy to one shot while being stationary.

[ExtremeA79]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 June 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Disagree. The head hitbox is often less of a problem when brawling. The Cat suffers headshots MORE as a sniper or a LRM support mech because it ISN'T MOVING, or is moving back and forth and not side to side.

Actually, that is more of an argument against the head hitbox if anything. If the Cat is only supposed to be a support mech, it shouldn't be that easy to one shot while being stationary.

Indirect fire?
If a mech is standing still, able to be shot by anyone who has high alpha, the catapult would be destroyed or almost destroyed if it hit the head or the Center Torso. It makes no difference.

[Skyfaller]

No it is not too big. The thing is it is easy to hit by people shooting at the CT of the catapult.


There is an easy way to avoid cockpit shots: Dont aim low. Keep your nose above horizon and CT shots will hit the CT not the 'pit.

[Gallowglas]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 June 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

I, like many people, have not had huge head shot issues with the mech. Just need to stay mobile and hard to hit.

Being mobile doesn't prevent a Catapult from being easily cockpitted. Yes, you can make them pretty fast, but there are plenty of mechs out there that can keep up and unless you intend to keep your back to them (which introduces a weakness of a different sort), they're going to be able to headshot you. It's enough that I actively seek it out every single time I engage one.

Honestly, I wish I had a good solution for collecting some video evidence. It's a moot point since the devs are correcting it, but I swear sometimes it's like people are playing a completely different game. With Elo differences, that may even be so.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Indirect fire?
If a mech is standing still, able to be shot by anyone who has high alpha, the catapult would be destroyed or almost destroyed if it hit the head or the Center Torso. It makes no difference.

Well, it would probably survive 1 CT hit at least, but definently die from headshot.

Point is, a stationary mech is easier to line up shots, and therefore easier to hit the head. I play a Catapult ALOT, and when I have been headshot most, is when I am PPC boating a K2, or poping up over cover to line up some LLaser shots. I am not moving too much and presenting an easier target. If I am moving around and zig zagging around enemies, I have never been headshot (that I can recall anyway).

Just don't present the enemy with an easy target. Standing spamming missiles or sniping does present that easy target.

[Odins Fist]

Lachsi, on 14 June 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

"Headspot Of Catapult Too Big?"

ANSWER: NO

That will be all.

[Gallowglas]

Odins Fist, on 17 June 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

ANSWER: NO

That will be all.

Well, the devs disagree, so I guess that will be all. Just not the "all" you envision.

[Volthorne]

I still have not seen one good argument (or even one VALID argument) for leaving the cockpit hitbox as-is, nor have I seen any proof of these mystical "advantages" the Catapult is supposed to have. It's all "well you must not be playing it right" or some variation thereof.

Edited by Volthorne, 17 June 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[ExtremeA79]

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 June 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Well, it would probably survive 1 CT hit at least, but definently die from headshot.

Point is, a stationary mech is easier to line up shots, and therefore easier to hit the head. I play a Catapult ALOT, and when I have been headshot most, is when I am PPC boating a K2, or poping up over cover to line up some LLaser shots. I am not moving too much and presenting an easier target. If I am moving around and zig zagging around enemies, I have never been headshot (that I can recall anyway).

Just don't present the enemy with an easy target. Standing spamming missiles or sniping does present that easy target.

Well catapults have to stay mobile. You said that being head shotted happens not at brawling. That implies at range. IF you were staying still, you are a easy target. You MAY survive a CT shot but that means the next you get a full blast of a medium laser means death.
If you were moving, the snipers would have to lead the target (you) and that means a drastic decrease in the chance of hitting your cockpit, and a slight/moderate decrease in hitting you. IF they hit your head, they were either somewhat lucky, or know their gauss's and/or PPC's well.

Gallowglas, on 17 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well, the devs disagree, so I guess that will be all. Just not the "all" you envision.

Aren't the devs changing the head hit box?
If they do, don't expect all your problems to magically disappear.

[Gallowglas]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Aren't the devs changing the head hit box?
If they do, don't expect all your problems to magically disappear.

Yes, that's what I mean. Odins Fist seemed to imply that the case was closed because he pronounced that it was fine. I know it was a sardonic statement. I was attempting to be equally sardonic (or at least light-heartedly sarcastic) in my reply.

And I don't expect every problem with the Catapult to disappear with the head hitbox being fixed. It already has other limitations though and I think those are sufficient. The head hitbox reduction will simply bring it more in line with its peers in terms of risk versus reward.

Edited by Gallowglas, 17 June 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Tombstoner]

The problem with the cat hit box is that is located almost dead center of the CT. guess what that's what everyone aiming at.... it just so happens that the head is so conveniently placed for the opfor that it gets hit by accident. where as the atlas and others are positioned up higher.

This is easily solved buy making the hit box smaller and bring the hit rate in line with other mechs

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 17 June 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I still have not seen one good argument (or even one VALID argument) for leaving the cockpit hitbox as-is, nor have I seen any proof of these mystical "advantages" the Catapult is supposed to have. It's all "well you must not be playing it right" or some variation thereof.

If the catapult has none of these supposed advantages, then what do you think a hitbox change is going to do? Make it better? It would still be outclassed. If people want the Cat to be better and have these supposed advantages then hitbox is the last thing they should be looking at.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Sorry to triple post, but once again, it's too damn big. I got another three headshot kills off them with my gaussjack just by very patiently taking shots and slowing my mech down a bit.

It isnt very satisfying when it takes no effort.

[Blue Splint]

Either have the CT easy to hit or the cockpit easy to hit. Not both please.

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

If the catapult has none of these supposed advantages, then what do you think a hitbox change is going to do? Make it better? It would still be outclassed. If people want the Cat to be better and have these supposed advantages then hitbox is the last thing they should be looking at.

Have I ever said it is "out-classed"? Hell no. I can and will take on Stalkers 1v1 in my C1 after I run out of ammo for my LRMs (or if my arms get blown off). What's not acceptable is people just glancing in my direction and hitting my cockpit.

Darren Tyler, on 14 June 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

To offset its advantages?

And you still have not told me what the advantages to using a Catapult over any other 'Mech are. You claim there are some and have not provided proof.

[ExtremeA79]

Volthorne, on 17 June 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Have I ever said it is "out-classed"? Hell no. I can and will take on Stalkers 1v1 in my C1 after I run out of ammo for my LRMs (or if my arms get blown off). What's not acceptable is people just glancing in my direction and hitting my cockpit.



And you still have not told me what the advantages to using a Catapult over any other 'Mech are. You claim there are some and have not provided proof.

So you are annoyed that you are getting hit on the cockpit despite having great success in even brawling a Stalker against all odds?
Being annoyed is not enough reason to resize a hit box. I don't believe I even HAVE to list the quirks of this mech as you already have so much success with it and seem to exploit it well.

Edited by Darren Tyler, 17 June 2013 - 10:56 AM.

[Volthorne]

Darren Tyler, on 17 June 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

So you are annoyed that you are getting hit on the cockpit despite having great success in even brawling a Stalker against all odds?
Being annoyed is not enough reason to resize a hit box. I don't believe I even HAVE to list the quirks of this mech as you already have so much success with it and seem to exploit it well.

So now you're basically trying to cover for your incompetence. Good to know. Just because I'm a damn good pilot doesn't mean everyone is, so why should they be forced to "deal with" suich godawful hitboxes? And yes you DO have to list all the "advantages", considering you made the claim. That's how debates work, or did you not know that as well?

[FireSlade]

This has just degraded into one big argument that is between those that like "easy" kills or are good with the CAT and those that have a hard time with the CAT. Personally I have had nothing but great luck with it. My first mech, since I didn't want to grind with a trial mech, was the CAT-C1 and it is still my favorite in the hanger. The K2 was another favorite of mine but I miss having the JJs to help me maneuver. Since I love this mech so much I am biased in the fact that I think that the design is fine. The high alpha thing that people are arguing that hurt the huge head hitbox of the CAT is not entirely true. To be honest the only thing that scares me is lasers and LRMs. Most people miss my head with ballistics and the PPC, I have never died to an SRM barrage to the head and LBXs are too spread to pop the cockpit (unless it has been damaged first. Lasers on the other hand can trace to the cockpit and fire fast enough to hurt me fast. LRMs also suck when they go for the CT and have a high arc but that is only if they hit head on. If I had my way I would love to see PGI make all of the head hitboxes the same size as the glass of the cockpit. Meaning Centurions, Cataphracts, Highlanders, and a few others would have a much harder time being stupid. Also since when is glass as strong as armor? Centurions need a big drawback right now since there is a few glitches that pilots exploit to their advantage (a Medium mech should not be able to tank an entire team's worth of damage). Then again there would be nothing but crying how PGI ruined (mech name) and how they are leaving all over the forums. Just look at the posts that came up when PGI decided to address the Poptart meta and make JJs a little more realistic.

Edited by FireSlade, 17 June 2013 - 11:29 AM.