175 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

ICEFANG13, on 17 June 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Did you know that 150 is a smaller minority?

Here, lets do some fun math!

Now, it would make sense the final result would be different, but it would not make sense to assume that it would be (you cannot assume it would be different based off the poll). So lets say there's 100,000 players who play this game, and we forced them to do this servery about 3rd person. It has a few options, yes I want it, no I don't want it, and I would prefer not to answer.

The old poll had about 3000, 150, 50 people who voted in those categories, so for the first 3200 people, we know their votes.

Now we ask the next 3200, what would we assume? I mean I understand that you like this 3rd person thing, but you don't take the same thing and expect the opposite. Of course it wouldn't be exactly 3000, 150, 50, but to expect it to be extremely different, well there's no logical reason to.

Of course! If there is support, even if I don't like it, they should put it in correct? Where is PGI getting this info from? The silent players?

Face it, they haven't done an Email poll or servery, they are asking Facebook or Twitter? Why aren't they showing this? I haven't seen one on their facebook about 3rd person?

So if I asked the next 3200, I would assume that they would answer in a similar manner to 3000, 150, 50, because there is no evidence to support any other thing.

Now you say that 3000 is 5% of the player base, ok, what is 150? Oh yeah .25% So are you telling me that the .25% are more correct? Why?

Acutally, as a game developer, I am familiar with such metrics. It is a well documented fact that forum goers that post regularly in any given game's forum typically fall into the following metrics...(these numbers have been analysed many times in the industry, they're pretty standard):

1.) Forum posters represent typically 1-5% of player populations

2.) Forum posters are typically the "elite" or "hardcore" players (the 1%ers if you will)

3.) Forum posters typically are far more opinionated and say things like..."rage quit" and "broken" when the average player does not know any issue exists

4.) The opinions typically differ on this last bit, but forum posters typically represent the ideas of roughly 10-25% of the playerbase. An extreme edge case would be forum posters represent the ideas of 1 in 3 players...(33%).

So, essentially, everyone here is a minority of opinion...that's the way it is.

Sorry.

If you think the numbers are wrong...next time you drop...join a PUG and ask all the PUG players how they feel about 3PV. Most would enjoy it, I can imagine and would say so...

[ICEFANG13]

Gyrok, on 17 June 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Acutally, as a game developer, I am familiar with such metrics. It is a well documented fact that forum goers that post regularly in any given game's forum typically fall into the following metrics...(these numbers have been analysed many times in the industry, they're pretty standard):

1.) Forum posters represent typically 1-5% of player populations

2.) Forum posters are typically the "elite" or "hardcore" players (the 1%ers if you will)

3.) Forum posters typically are far more opinionated and say things like..."rage quit" and "broken" when the average player does not know any issue exists

4.) The opinions typically differ on this last bit, but forum posters typically represent the ideas of roughly 10-25% of the playerbase. An extreme edge case would be forum posters represent the ideas of 1 in 3 players...(33%).

So, essentially, everyone here is a minority of opinion...that's the way it is.

Sorry.

If you think the numbers are wrong...next time you drop...join a PUG and ask all the PUG players how they feel about 3PV. Most would enjoy it, I can imagine and would say so...

Ok so do that for 3200 players and we can add it to the mix. Although I don't think most players can find 3200 different players to poll.

[Name140704]

Zerberus, on 16 June 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Becasue the netcode Team and the features team are exactly the same people, despite dev posts and Obvious differences in qualifications to the contrary *facepalm*

There was no point to your response since it added nothing to the discussion. That exact comment has been made a dozen times. We call a big pool of resources a budget here, and everything gets pulled out of that budget. That is what I was talking about. Not some nonsense you implied from a bad sentence.

This is the second poorly thought out troll post I've gotten from you in the last 48 hours. Can you get better or move on?

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Tombstoner, on 17 June 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I dont care.... I want a game that is fun to play. 3PV is such a minor issue. What really concerns me is that some DEVs do seem to value the opinion of the competitive crowd more then the casual.

It's actually the other way around, which has been causing way too many problems.

Casuals want to win with the least amount of effort, Every change that has been made to the game has been made in favor of Casuals, the Jump Jet change that broke Physics which brought back jump sniping. It's not the tryhards that jumpsnipe, it's the casuals who want a quick win.

3rd person view is targeted towards the currently non-existant possible playerbase that will come rushing to MWO once 3rd person is included... IE another casual crowd. Removal of Knock Downs, because being stunlock sucked [the system we had was better than no system at all] casuals. Making BAP hardcounter ECM even though we had the PPC counter ability and ECM counter ability, meaning that ECM now has 3 hard counters instead of 2. [not that this is a bad change mind you, but still, casuals.]

Every single change that has been made to this game that's been viewed in a negative light by the community, Consumeables, 3rd person view, ECM changes, SRM changes, LRM changes, PPC changes, Jump Jet Changes [save for the recent shake nerf] can all be attributed to Casual players.

Edit: Also in regards to the old 3rd person view poll that had thousands of people voting on it.

The last time I'd looked before the poll was taken removed, over 5000 players [nearly 5500] had voted NO on 3rd person view. With only aproximately 500 in favor of 3rd person.

Edited by Jade Kitsune, 18 June 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[MeatForBrains]

At the end of the day it isn't 3PV that really matters its the fact that we don't have many active players to begin with, so fracturing an already small community makes no sense.

[Galen Crayn]

Yesterday i have installed "Hawken", a Battlemech game in 3PV... After playing it was clear why PGI wants this mode so badly - they want to top "Hawken" and want all the player disappointed by it. With 3PV Mechwarrior would be a direct competitor to "Hawken". This game is more popular, more 3PV, will release the same time and it is WORSE. So that would be THE chance for PGI but they have to hurry. I think that is the main reason for the fast 3PV action of PGI.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

MeatForBrains, on 18 June 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

At the end of the day it isn't 3PV that really matters its the fact that we don't have many active players to begin with, so fracturing an already small community makes no sense.

The reason we don't have that many active players is because PGI drove everybody away.

Consumeables, Hero Mechs, ECM bs, 3rd person view, Jump Jet's breaking laws of physics, Horrible persisting meta that takes 3+ months to fix, Bugs that have been in the game for over 9+ months. Breaking away from design pillars. Toxic responses from the devs [Player:When are we getting Team Deathmatch? Bryan:When you stop touching yourself at night.] Broken promises and shattered dreams. Dev cycles that are slower than molassas in janurary...

When it takes over 9+ months to figure out your HUD is broken and to track down a bug that thousands of your players are experiencing. There's a problem, and it's not with your playerbase.

Seriously though, at the end of the day, 3rd person matters a TON because it's up to PGI to not screw it up if they do impliment it... and well, look at the current track record... oh lets not forget the LRM screwup's with flightpath that they've screwed up 3 TIMES... 3 DIFFERENT TIMES, SAME MISTAKE 3 BLOODY TIMES!!!!

[LanceUy]

Really frustrated they will be putting up 3PV despite all the uproar. That said, I wish they can limit that to spectator mode and record/reply mode only and not while during gameplay. That way, PGI gets to have many community produced video they wish to help market the game and still not affect gameplay.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

LanceUy, on 18 June 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

Really frustrated they will be putting up 3PV despite all the uproar. That said, I wish they can limit that to spectator mode and record/reply mode only and not while during gameplay. That way, PGI gets to have many community produced video they wish to help market the game and still not affect gameplay.

But they don't want that LanceUy... they want the non-existant Cowadooty crowd that's clamoring on Facebook and Twitter and Reddit for 3rd person view, the people that can't be bothered to come to the official forums to voice their opinions, yet expect to have a voice.

[MustrumRidcully]

ArmandTulsen, on 15 June 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Wasn't it their "internal testing" (what consists of this anyway?) which concluded that ECM was balanced and totally not OP when they introduced it last year?

I only remember something by Bryan Eckman, I believe, that said ECM was currently in internal testing and was borderline OP Or something to that effect.

Just remember "working as intended" could still mean "we intended it to be overpowered" or "we intendend it to be underpowered".

[Ari Dian]

KingCobra, on 16 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

IM sorry here fella but us silent majority players do want 3rd person view.3rd person view has been a MechWarrior standard since Mechwarrior2 and all PC MechWarrior games and expansions since. The only thing previous MechWarrior games did was give you more options than MWO has. PGI needs to make FPV or 3rd person view a checkable option so there not played together in the same battles. That would give the 3rd person players a advantage but if the queues are separate there is really no problem at all with having both views. Now if PGI could just make the mechs maneuver like in MW4 fix the mechlab with savable configurations we make add a live chat lobby and private leagues and games we would be in fat city and the fun could begin.

The silent majority cant be a majority as long as it is silent .

All polls that have been about 3PV so far about said really clear WE DONT WANT 3PV. And with 99% against it.
I have NO idea where PGI take the idea that a majority want it when there was no poll about it. And especially if there was no poll about it that proof that a majority want a 3PV:

Right now, the only real poll were the ones on this forum that were showing that no want want it.


And spliting the community into "hardcore" and "normal" can only HARM the game. Like some said already, you are splitting up the players.

Local servers.
Assault /Conquest
8 Team Premade / all other
Normal / Hardcore
And on Top: Elo and Mech weight.

This many splits will lead to a really low player pool. Especially for a game like MWO that dont has the same numbers other games have (like LoL or WoT).

[Ari Dian]

Pando, on 17 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Murdering their game for the 3,000 that voted , and claim majority...out of the 480,000? Yeah, MURDER! Game is dead, dying. YEP.



This.

First of all. 480k players? HHAHAHAHAH. Good joke.
480k registered players is NOT the same as 480k players.

You need to check the numbers of unique accouts logging into the game to get some real numbers of the players. But you will never see these .
I would be really suprissed when more than 1/4th of the registered player actual play, ever played or still play.. My guess would be more like 1/10th. And dont forget that these are over the whole day. Over 24 hours. If i have to guess i would say the actual numbers of current online players at any given time will be around 2000-4000.
And PGI even said it were the hardcore player that voted. So if these 3k hardcore players are leaving, you lose the "majority" of the current online player base. These hardcore players that play 12+ hours a day. This hurt your current online player numbers way more than you can think.



Second. There is something that is called statistics.

just a question. How much do you think would the results have been changed if twice the player would have been voted? And how much when ALL would have been voted?
You would be suprissed how similar the results would have been even when all would have voted. Sure, it would not be 99%. But it would be still a extrem majority who dont want it.


I still dont understand where PGI take the impression that the majority of the players want a 3rd PV when the players were never asked. Its like they just have to or want to bring it out, no matter what the players want. And there is NO WAY they know what the players want when they were never asked.

[Ari Dian]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 June 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

I only remember something by Bryan Eckman, I believe, that said ECM was currently in internal testing and was borderline OP Or something to that effect.

Just remember "working as intended" could still mean "we intended it to be overpowered" or "we intendend it to be underpowered".

The last time i heard something like this was with the ECM. When they said it get delayed because they have to tune it. Its to OP right now they said.
And we all know HOW it came out. If the way it came out was their way to say its balanced, i dont even want know how it was on the test servers. Maybe it caused a blackscreen to every enemy within the ECM bubble?


If they say its to OP on the test server right now it means its total broken. And when they release it it will be "just" op.

[Zerberus]

Ari Dian, on 18 June 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

The silent majority cant be a majority as long as it is silent .

So what you`re saying is that the US military and Police outnumber the population, simply because the population is not out in open protest like they are in Brazil and Turkey?

Yeah, sounds absolutely logical to me

Edited by Zerberus, 18 June 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Pando, on 17 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Murdering their game for the 3,000 that voted , and claim majority...out of the 480,000? Yeah, MURDER! Game is dead, dying. YEP.



This.

YOU are claiming a majority of the player base with only 150 votes. Which is sillier?

[Ari Dian]

Zerberus, on 18 June 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

So what you`re saying is that the US military and Police outnumber the population, simply because the population is not out in open protest like they are in Brazil and Turkey?

Yeah, sounds absolutely logical to me

I cant see your analogy at all right now.
You say the US military and Police outnumber the population because they are silent? That is by no word what i said.


No. What i am saying is that you dont know that you are part of a majority and cant say what the rest want when this "majority" is being silent and not saying anything.
This is like making a politcal party and saying that everyone, who is not going to vote, is voting me. So i have the majority (as long as there are 50% not voting people).
Someone who dont say anything, and not telling what they want is neutral and not pro or contra.

And your example, however twisted your compare to my comment is, is fitting. The "silent" are stepping up and showing that they are the majority by taking a side. If they would have been quite it only show they dont care.


The ONLY true way to find out what the players want would be poll or question on the login screen of MWO that you have to answer.
Do you want 3PV? Yes, no, i dont care!
THIS is the only way to get a representative data of what player want.

[Ransack]

Pando, on 17 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Murdering their game for the 3,000 that voted , and claim majority...out of the 480,000? Yeah, MURDER! Game is dead, dying. YEP.



This.

I'm pretty sure that Pada's comment was meant sarcastically.

(Every time he posts, I see Panda Vision. Damn old eyes)

hammerreborn, on 17 June 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Ya how dare they implement 3rd person in a mechwarrior game, which has had more games in third person than first person. Stupid PGI.

Yeah, and How Dare I say that I won't be using it.

Call the police!

[ArmandTulsen]

Pando, on 17 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Murdering their game for the 3,000 that voted , and claim majority...out of the 480,000? Yeah, MURDER! Game is dead, dying. YEP.

Statistics, how do they work?

[arkani]

Zylo, on 15 June 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

I refuse to spend any more money on MWO if 3rd person view is added and I encourage others to do the same.

Say NO to 3rd person views.

I already am, letting my money talk for me. I have not bought a simgle MC since they first let 3pv slip.
Humongus votes against and they still go and do it.
PGIIGP doesn't listen to us. Let them listen to empty pockets.

Edited by arkani, 18 June 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Sporklift]

An interesting thing about 3pv is the original reason nobody wanted it: jumpsniping. It wrecked alot of the earlier Mechwarrior games' multiplayer to have 3pv available along with customization and really really good jumpjets. A player in 3rd person could look over a hill or building, pre-aim, and jump-shoot with startling accuracy.
The reason jumpsniping was still a problem in this game (before JJ shake raised the bar) is because players didn't need 3pv to get an idea of where to shoot. This was due to the battlemech tactical data sharing system putting a little red triangle over everyone visible to a non-ecm'd spotter.
In that respect 3pv wouldn't be such a problem because the BTDS would keep the field level. Except that to get the kind of situational awareness available with 3pv (ability to see over biuldings and around corners) a 1pv player would have to use the siesmic sensor along with always having eyes on the enemy.