471 replies to this topic

[Kaspirikay]

I don't see this game progressing atm. It seems like it stagnated and is now about game play balance alone. However without a goal in mind., game balance becomes moot as people get tired of the simple matches and leave.

[Sephlock]

FupDup, on 24 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Am I understanding your viewpoint correctly or am I getting it wrong?

You're getting it wrong.

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

You're getting it wrong.

Alrighty then. What is the correct version of your viewpoint, then...for reference purposes.

[Sephlock]

FupDup, on 24 June 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Alrighty then. What is the correct version of your viewpoint, then...for reference purposes.

What you said + sometimes people just overreact, resulting in epic nerfage that makes me very, very sad inside.



Incidentally, @ the whole "more than one" weapon system being viable thing... since the latest nerf, has the number of viable weapon systems increased or decreased?

How about on Alpine?

Edited by Sephlock, 24 June 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[FupDup]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

What you said + sometimes people just overreact, resulting in epic nerfage that makes me very, very sad inside.



Incidentally, @ the whole "more than one" weapon system being viable thing... since the latest nerf, has the number of viable weapon systems increased or decreased?

How about on Alpine?

By "latest" nerf do you mean the LPL? If so, then the number of viable weapons seems to be identical to the way it was prior to that (the LPL wasn't very good prior to nerf, so nerfing it didn't really affect it much). Nothing has really changed for quite some time (PPC meta has been solid for quite some time other than the Lurmageddon interruption).

Alpine is the same as every other map: long-range, high-alpha trench warfare for the first ~4-5 minutes and then some minor brawling (usually led by Jagerbombs).

Edited by FupDup, 24 June 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Asmosis]

I'm curious what makes people think they dont check configurations used by players in the top elo brackets or watch these matches from time to time, I'm assuming they have the functionality to drop in and spectate a live match.

[Sephlock]

Asmosis, on 24 June 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I'm curious what makes people think they dont check configurations used by players in the top elo brackets

Machineguns.

Also flamers, LBX, pulse lasers.

Oh, and SRMs.

[FupDup]

Asmosis, on 24 June 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

I'm curious what makes people think they dont check configurations used by players in the top elo brackets or watch these matches from time to time, I'm assuming they have the functionality to drop in and spectate a live match.

Part of it might be that PGI is deciding to target the 6 PPC Stalker with the upcoming boating nerf, even though top players realize that 4 ERPPC is much more optimal. Maybe it's because they also want to nerf Medium Laser boats, which I'm guessing aren't really that rampant in high elo tiers (or even lower ones). It could also be due to their stubbornness to buff SRMs, the LPL nerf, and a host of other changes that pretty much everyone sees the flaws in.

[Lord Ikka]

I just see the lack of communication as frustrating. Weapon balancing is a constant, and has improved over the past six months. What really annoys me is the silence, the using of alternative sites/media to get information to us, and the bad justifications for both.

[Asmudius Heng]

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I wrote up a post talking about some more of the balance issues in the game, but then I just deleted it because I don't think it's actually gonna change much to talk about it.

I know that feeling.

It is like beating your head against a brick wall going into details about why convergeance is the issue - I make the mistake sometimes of bringing the TT game into the discussion which makes some people fly off the handle despite the fact it needs to be mentioned insofar as the rules and consequences of how damage is dealt and hitting applies.

Keep up the good fight man - i dont have time or energy for this anymore but I hope you and others who know the score keep on posting and hopefully make a difference.

[Dredhawk]

Only thing I'm complaining about is the Lack of community Warfare/CW/Faction wars......adding a few maps here and there and mech's doesn't cut for me...

[RG Notch]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I play to stay up for at least 24 hours when the Clans are introduced, so I can get every last drop of fun out of the game before the whiners get it nerfed (like they did with LRMs).

Exploit early, exploit often. Good watchwords for the min maxer!

Roland, on 24 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I wrote up a post talking about some more of the balance issues in the game, but then I just deleted it because I don't think it's actually gonna change much to talk about it.

That's not stopping a lot of other people sadly.

[Andrew Cranston]

Lord Ikka, on 24 June 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

I just see the lack of communication as frustrating. Weapon balancing is a constant, and has improved over the past six months. What really annoys me is the silence, the using of alternative sites/media to get information to us, and the bad justifications for both.

I don't know that I would agree that it has. Honestly if they had put in gauss explosions the game would have been pretty damn balanced prior to ECM. ECM happened and the game honestly has never truly felt as balanced since to me. I remember the best sniper in our unit used to take a 4 PPC Atlas occasionally, but he was one of the few people we would let drop in one because the penalty for Alpha'ing and missing was so high. After one or two shots he had to essentially back off for a minute or so to cool down. 4 ER PPC's was simply not viable. 2 Gauss builds allowed for 30 pinpoint and 3 Gauss builds were practically unusable. That was pretty balanced to me. They've regressed, not improved IMHO.

A lot of people are giving it one last hurrah Notch. I'm not exactly a prolific poster.

[Asmudius Heng]

Victor Morson, on 24 June 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

First off I want to be the very first person to say yes, previous MechWarriors had balance issues. Balance issues that were mostly addressed in expansions - in particular the MW4:Hardcore Mektek fan project. Medium lasers in vanilla made flamers here look good, and the machine guns were even less damaging while weighing almost 2 full tons after ammo each!

I don't have rose colored glasses on. However, what you aren't looking at is things have changed with gaming a lot since MechWarrior 4. Balance patches are now something that could be pushed daily without interruption if they were so inclined, and stuff can be tweaked on the fly. Again, a lot of people still had 28.8 modems in MW4 and this wasn't an option. Patches took hours to get and were difficult to install.

That said, the one reason I will disagree and say that honestly I feel vanilla MW4 was actually more balanced than MW:O right now is that, and this is big, each class of weapon had effective options. Sure small and medium lasers were a joke in vanilla MW4, but the Large Laser was great. Ballistics had LBX/10 and LBX/20 as viable (again, UACs were balanced very poorly in the first incarnation) weapons. LRMs were solid, even if the IS versions were vastly inferior - something we're likely to see again here when the Clans show up, if LRMs are made good in the first place. (I'll be the first to admit 6 ton LRM/20s would absolutely dominate the field right now, unlike the almost double the weight IS versions).

Now, as MW went on, more and more weapons were made viable. Black Knight rebalanced many of them, and Merceneries went on a wholesale cleanup. But again, this was how big patches were done back then: People rather wait for an expansion and buy a disc than spend hours downloading at potentially long distance, by the hour rates. (Sidenote: The 90s/early 2000s kinda sucked like that.)

So yes. Previous games had balance issues, but they also accommodated Snipers, midrange, brawlers and support right out of the box.

Frankly I think I'd have a lot less problem with a few broken guns (I'd still lobby to fix them eventually) if each category was great. If the LBX/10 was awesome, for example, it might do a lot to help brawlers even if the other infighting guns remain inferior. (AC40 will only be a credible threat when the Victor rolls out, if it can support it as predicted.)

EDIT: Another reason I think the community has a unique perspective on why things work / don't work in a MW title is we've been through it all before. While this is a different game, many realities from past games are still here.

MW4 got to a point where there were enough competitive weapons and mechs across the IS and clans to give everyone a diverse range of roles on the battlefield.

This did not mean the weapons were balanced though they were not - just that there were enough counters to create an interesting metagame - however ERLL still dominated overall.

MWO has better overall balance between weapons, but the mechanics of the game have led to a much more stagnant metagame.

I think that better brawling weapons would help bring a semblance of that meta-balance - but it would still not have the same depth as a game with a better system of convergence where boats were not as optimal as they currently are and will always be.

[Sephlock]

RG Notch, on 24 June 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Exploit early, exploit often. Good watchwords for the min maxer!

It's not a matter of exploitation, it's a matter of wanting to get a bite of cake before they **** all over it.

[RG Notch]

Sephlock, on 24 June 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

It's not a matter of exploitation, it's a matter of wanting to get a bite of cake before they **** all over it.

Not if you're talking about LRMS.

[Roland]

Asmudius Heng, on 24 June 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

I think that better brawling weapons would help bring a semblance of that meta-balance

Agreed.

While I believe SRM's were indeed overpowered in their earlier incarnation, their nerfing, combined with prior nerfing of ML's and SL's, and the relative uselessness of the LBX10, makes it kind of limited in terms of infighting weaponry right now.

You got the AC20, but it's such a huge investment of tonnage that it means you're limiting it to only a few mechs (especially given its size in terms of slots). And this comes from someone who used the AC20 a ton.

[FupDup]

This is what happens when the forums suggest something to PGI:


(Forumers = Lois, PGI = Peter)

[BlackIronTarkus]

Sudden Reversal, on 24 June 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

More of a ramble than a rant, but all of it poignant.

BTW, I'm one of the bull-headed players that insist on playing persistent damage over time mechs rather than alpha-strike dominators.

Getting harder every patch. Good times.

Exactly the same for me. Summing up all my thoughs about this specific subject.

Actually Im using a doule LB-10X/3 medium lasers ilya muronet with a 340xl. Trying to brawl with UP weapons at that... I must be maso-chist(its censored).

Edited by BlackIronTarkus, 24 June 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

I wish that mektek was still working on MW:4 and that MW:LL was still being updated because those games were honestly more balanced than MW:O. PPCs, ECM, TAG, BAP, and Boating should all be totally revamped. They thought the idea of HARD-counters was good. This is not the case. SOFT-counters are far superior. This is because an lrm boat with ecm and tag in current game is unbeatable. You cant stop his lock on and he can stop yours. But if he had ecm and tag with SOFT-counters he would be a regular guy. He can still get hit by lrms, he can still fire lrms. His lock will be accelerated because of tag but if someone has ecm his lock wont be totally stopped if he didn't have room for tag. PPCs are just plain OP i don't think they should counter ecm. There is no reason for it. Their heat should be raised ever so slighty and ERPPC heat should be lowered an even slighter amount. This is because it is more heat efficient to run 4 PPCs with 10DHS than it is to run 2 ERPPCs and 2 med lasers. This means that ERPPCs are very hot, which they should be but they seem a bit too hot. They could also leave heat alone and increase RoF again. Just spit ball-ing(ball ing is censored for some reason) here but PPCs seem a bit OP and ERPPCs seem a tad bit underpowered(but i guess if the heat was lowered then we would see more 6 ERPPC stalkers) Also ac20 boats and gauss boats need to be stopped. They are the single most prevalent builds around. I have not been in a game the pact 3 weeks without a jagerbomb and / or gaussjager. Which is absurd though they need an XL engine or a small standard they have great heat efficiency and massive DPS that no other builds can contend with (other than some Uac5/ac5 omets and ctf-4xs) I think boating should be an option but not one without consequences. I think if you want you should be able to put 5ppcs and a gauss in your cataphract-1x (i have its fun, only mech capable currently) but i have ungodly bad heat and a tiny engine with no armor. You should be able to run a 3erppc raven (i have) with bad heat and a small engine with low armor. Three gauss rifles in a muromets (i have) small engine, low ammo, low armor. But to be able to run a pair of extremely high DPS weapons with no consequences is just bad. I am starting to believe that MW:O needs a slot system. Which still wouldn't fix all these boating issues but would thin the pack enough so that they can be fully resolved.

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 24 June 2013 - 06:33 PM.