366 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

Roland, on 09 June 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Ultimately, you can't really go by the TT rules regarding this...

Yes, you can! The rules clearly state that a torso can only twist for 120°. Not a degree more! There is no rule how fast that twist is, so implementing different turning speeds is possible without violating the rules. If you want to stay true to the rules, something microsoft obviously didn't inted to do, but PGI wants to, you implement a stop of your torso at that very angle.

It gives every single mech a weak spot, no one can ever evade. It is balancing in itself, because it makes fast mechs with good turning speeds (probably light mechs mostly) viable against slow turning behemoths. If they had to outrun turning and endless torso twist, they would stand no chance.

This is not the arcade shooter MW4 has been. This is a totaly new and unkown beast.

[Meldarth Sunphot]

Ok one this is not MW4 or MWLL - ugh.......in TT there was no 360 twist.......MWO; dev have said is staying as true as they can to TT; no thank god no 360........its way too powerful and no way to bounce.......

[Skulls n Guns]

Zoggy, on 09 June 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

360 deg torso twists are pretty rare. What about the rear mounted lasers and the arms with no lower actuators being able to fire behind you?

I'd like to see that functional, would be interesting.

[Roland]

Ok doke.. not really gonna convince the folks who irrationally fear differences in torso twist.

But, for the record, "Staying close to the TT rules" does not imply that the developers are going to tie their hands and not implement differences from the TT rules. Things like differences in torso twist are almost certainly going to be in the game I would guess.

The fact that the rules, created for a totally different method of gameplay, say one thing in this regard really doesn't matter.

[Rabid Dutchman]

Egomane, on 09 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

The [TT] rules clearly state that a torso can only twist for 120°. Not a degree more! There is no rule how fast that twist is, so implementing different turning speeds is possible without violating the rules. If you want to stay true to the rules, something microsoft obviously didn't inted to do, but PGI wants to, you implement a stop of your torso at that very angle.

This argument is sounding similar to the argument Warhammer 40,000 players had (myself included) when Dawn of War first released. There were systems in Dawn of War that flew in the face of the original 40k rules (tank shock, jump-trooper movement, etc).
However, even though Dawn of War diverted from the source material in places, it was still AMAZING. Any real-time video game based on a TT is going to be different in many ways to accommodate the shift in pacing and the difference between luck of the dice and pilot skill.
I for one loved that the Vulture had 360 twist in MW4, as it had very light armor for its class. The full twist gave it an edge that kept it viable in combat.

My point is that, yes, the Devs said they are going to stay as close to the source material as possible and I believe them. But if they have to choose between sticking to the rules of what is an entirely different game, or making a tweak to make their game more balanced and/or better, do you really think they'll go with rules that apply to a completely different game genre?

[Frostiken]

Egomane, on 09 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes, you can! The rules clearly state that a torso can only twist for 120°. Not a degree more!

Yeah, it wasn't a "degree more" because it was played on hexes, and each side represented 60°, so it was either 120° or 240°, with nothing in between. Additionally, the flip your arms around and rear-firing weapons were options we don't have as well. Plus, you could fire off-boresight as well.

I have no problem with variable twist ranges, it will help balance to some degree and add variety.

Edited by Frostiken, 09 June 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Roland, on 09 June 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ok doke.. not really gonna convince the folks who irrationally fear differences in torso twist.

But, for the record, "Staying close to the TT rules" does not imply that the developers are going to tie their hands and not implement differences from the TT rules. Things like differences in torso twist are almost certainly going to be in the game I would guess.

The fact that the rules, created for a totally different method of gameplay, say one thing in this regard really doesn't matter.

Its not a fear - 360 doesn't exist in canon, pretty simple.
The Devs aren't tying their han'ds by staying close to the TT rules, which are vast and expansive if you're using the advanced stuff. Theres a running joke that in Battletech, "There's a rule for that".

But since none of us are devs, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Dhimmi]

i would say yes for the scout mechs ( they are quite vunerable anyway) but not for the other classes would unbalance the entire thing imho

[Namwons]

Meldarth Sunphot, on 09 June 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Ok one this is not MW4 or MWLL - ugh.......in TT there was no 360 twist.......MWO; dev have said is staying as true as they can to TT; no thank god no 360........its way too powerful and no way to bounce.......

you can also easily say this isnt TT. TT has that restriction because there are only 6 sides to a hex. there are no hexes in MWO

[SMDMadCow]

Namwons, on 09 June 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

you can also easily say this isnt TT. TT has that restriction because there are only 6 sides to a hex. there are no hexes in MWO

How does a 6 sided hex prevent a 360 torso twist - it doesn't. Your argument makes no sense.

[BerserX]

Davoke, on 09 June 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Thanatos has 360 degrees of twist

The Thanatos is one of my absolute favorite 'Mechs!

[BarHaid]

SMDMadCow, on 09 June 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

How does a 6 sided hex prevent a 360 torso twist - it doesn't. Your argument makes no sense.

Let's try to throw a little Battlmech construction into this fray. Mechs are built as complete skeletons wrapped in myomer muscles. A 360 degree joint is going to be a hard break between the upper and lower sections. This would weaken the overall structural integrity of the mech, adversely effect the neurohelmet balance of the mechwarrior, and frankly smacks of inferior vehicle construction.

Or at least, that's what the fake mech engineer in my head thinks.

Personally, I would love to see a wide range of torso twist, but there has to be a balancing factor. If you can twist 360, what are you sacrificing? Stability? If you have almost no torso twist, are you a super steady firing platform?

[SMDMadCow]

BarHaid, on 09 June 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Let's try to throw a little Battlmech construction into this fray. Mechs are built as complete skeletons wrapped in myomer muscles. A 360 degree joint is going to be a hard break between the upper and lower sections. This would weaken the overall structural integrity of the mech, adversely effect the neurohelmet balance of the mechwarrior, and frankly smacks of inferior vehicle construction.

Or at least, that's what the fake mech engineer in my head thinks.

Personally, I would love to see a wide range of torso twist, but there has to be a balancing factor. If you can twist 360, what are you sacrificing? Stability? If you have almost no torso twist, are you a super steady firing platform?

Oh i agree, my point was the limitation is not in effect because of the TT having a 6 sided hex.
The Quads are fluffed as superior platforms and they dont have a toros twist...

[GHQCommander]

There is something special about being shot in the back and having to do a bit of quick turning. Only to find the shooter, has run around you while you turn, *******, then you jump and turn or run backwards while turning.

Aw I can't wait, bring it on, I'll smash someone, I'm going to smash YOU, all of you, hell I will shoot my own mechs legs I'm so dam excited about shooting at metal !!!

Sorry I've had beers

[BarHaid]

SMDMadCow, on 09 June 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Oh i agree, my point was the limitation is not in effect because of the TT having a 6 sided hex.
The Quads are fluffed as superior platforms and they dont have a toros twist...

THAT'S what I was forgetting! Something was niggling about in the back of my head while writing. Yes, quads should have seriously limited torso twist! If/when the quads appear, I hope that they are sniper platforms extraordinaire!

[00dlez]

I hate true 360 degree swivel, I would get lost in MW4 a lot... 179 degree in each direction? Just fine, keeps my direction sense while Im firin' mah laz0rz

[Deathz Jester]

When would you use 360 torso twist honestly?

I'm sure a fair amount of the mechs will have almost 360 torso twist.

as I recall not that many had 360?

[SweetJackal]

Actually, there are unconfirmed differences in torso twist from official sources. Take a good hard look at the Screenshots, you'll see that the Atlas has a very narrow degree of torso twist. Watch the IGN gameplay footage for the different mech classes, notice how the far the Hunchback twists in the middle of combat.

[Cik]

normally i'm a lorefag, but i can deal with 360 twist. it must be rare, and 'mech specific, though. it helps the mad dog in MWLL be a useful 'mech, compensating pretty well for it's being undertonned compared to a summoner or timber wolf.

[UnLimiTeD]

This is one of the things where the devs should bend the TT rules to accommodate a real time, 3d environment.
Twists in each direction should range between 75° and 150° on mechs, with a few select able to do 360° for a small penalty to what do I know.
Maybe they need a heavy Gyro or something.

If you say it should only ever be 120°, you should also advocate for rear firing weapons, and there better not be any changes to weapons to ensure balancing. I personally think a video game of today should be able to change those kind of things a little to keep things interesting and varied.
Btw, a 360° turn is not necessarily overpowered.
Let's take a hypothetical 100 ton assault mech.
It is slightly less mobile (turning on foot) than others of it's weight class, it twists it's torso slower, and sacrifices weight on stabiltiy measures. Now yes, that turning gives him tactical flexibility, but it reduces it's weapons load and reaction speed in turn.
Thus, if drawbacks are in place, this feature would add variety.

Edited by UnLimiTeD, 09 June 2012 - 02:24 PM.