344 replies to this topic

[HansBlix WMD]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Oh look. I did read. "Trying to play with 7... vs two groups of four" That's fairly ******* clearly placing the author's point of view as part of one team made entirely of 'mouthbreathers' versus a pair of four-mans.

Oh Look. You Can't Read. Put yourself in the shoes of a soloer, with 7 other soloers, vs two 4 stacks. That is the norm. Whether it's "me" or some other soloer, what does it matter? That person is going to be more likely to leave the game.

[Asmosis]

One Medic Army, on 28 June 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

No, seriously, this exact thread was created on a daily basis throughout most of Closed Beta and for several months into Open Beta. Matchmaking is, for the random solo player, hugely improved versus older versions. Hugely improved meaning you can still expect to lose in 50% of games, and probably die in 75% plus of games, because you know that's about average. If you don't like everyone running off to the 4corners alone to die, take command (hit B, click the button) and put up some waypoints for everyone to group at. It works.

Very true. the current MM is leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be, due to premade teams having (mostly) inflated ELO rankings from winning so much initially, they are mostly in the high/top ELO brackets now so get matched against other teams or groups of pugs that can function well together. In the low/mid ELO brackets you really *don't* encounter teams much at all.

As for taking command, more people should do it. Had a game last night where someone did that, 2 minutes into the match I realized I had no idea where the enemy was, but darn it I was keeping up with the waypoints! (tourmaline, ended up flanking enemy team without been seen and had a close range brawl for once).

Edited by Asmosis, 28 June 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[TheGreatNoNo]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Did you confirm they were synched? It'd be the first time I've seen Elo synched past, though if the same eight regularly play together they'll probably average out to a similar Elo. That said, it's entirely possible it's just two four-man Steiner groups. Not like the House tag implies membership of a clan or anything.

One of them flat out said it was. However, he could have been a troll out to ruin everyone's fun, but I doubt it because I`m bitter!


Edited out their names just in case they were not a synch drop, but again, I`m bitter and I doubt the chances of them not being.

Edited by Lost One, 28 June 2013 - 08:51 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Oh Look. You Can't Read. Put yourself in the shoes of a soloer, with 7 other soloers, vs two 4 stacks. That is the norm. Whether it's "me" or some other soloer, what does it matter? That person is going to be more likely to leave the game.

My point is that 8x1 vs 2x4 isn't something that routinely happens. The matchmaker will, in my experience, vastly prefer 1x4+4x1 vs 1x4+4x1. And that's ignoring the high probability of 2 or 3 man teams being involved. Whether or not mouthbreather no.8 is you or not is irrelevant (although I do find the suggestion that you were on the same team as a pair of 4-mans while pugging slightly dubious for some reason).

Lost One, on 28 June 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

One of them flat out said it was. However, he could have been a troll out to ruin everyone's fun, but I doubt it because I`m bitter!

Wow. Time to arbitrarily hate on anyone with a Steiner tag as a synch-dropping pub-stomping tryhard methinks.

That said, I do genuinely find it interesting that they managed to synch drop and ended up on the same side. I synchdrop sometimes with some of the guys I generally drop with and, because our Elo is so similar, if we end up in the same match it almost always dumps us on opposite times.

Maybe they were maphacking to increase their chances of dropping in the same match?

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 28 June 2013 - 08:53 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The problem is that there are not enough premades dropping to balance them to each other or themselves. That's the reality of it.

The other reality is that no matter what PGI or anyone else does the vast bulk of players will never, for any reason and at any time, use VOIP services like teamspeak. They absolutely will quit the game first. That's not going to change.

If you balanced teams to teams it would end up like 8-mans and people would leave. The truth is that people who drop in premades with VOIP don't want to be balanced with other teams using VOIP. If people wanted a challenge everyone would bubble up to 8-mans, which was the original concept. The opposite has happened because you give people a chance to play in an environment where they have an advantage and they'll take that over playing somewhere challenging.

So what does PGI do? They've got a huge segment of the population (pugs) who want to just play the game and test their own skill. Then you've got a tiny, tiny segment of the game that's dedicated teams who want to play in organized groups against other teams. Then you've got a slightly larger group than that who wants to play in teams, but what they really want is to play against other people they can beat. Quite a few people spend a bit of time in each group.

The reality is that if they make group A happy by balancing teams out group B is happy because there isn't enough people to play with. There isn't enough people to play with because group C will only play when they have an advantage. They sure don't want to play competitively and deal with a 50/50 win/loss rate on average. They want to play with an advantage, have a high win rate and pretend that it's their personal skill and not a built-in tactical advantage that got them the victory.

If they make group C happy there's enough people to keep group B happy to play with because the C folks will drop against the B folks - sometimes, but quickly tire of getting beaten by teams that are actually skilled in their own right before they go back to farming group A as much as they can. Group A however is unhappy because they have no interest in the commitment that group B effectively needs and has nothing but utter (and justified) contempt for group C, so they leave.

So PGI is trying to play both ends. Let group C play with their advantage but reduce the frequency with which any group A folks tend to drop against group B and C folks. The problem is that the B folks are bored now because the C folks realized they don't actually have the skill to play with B and it strokes their egos to play with A. The A folks are trickling out now and the B folks sound like they've left in droves while crazy enough a bunch of C folks have left too because they don't get to play against A folks often enough - they win enough and they start dropping against the B folks more often and get confronted by the reality of their own lack of skill on a level field.

So now what? For one thing groups are not as common as some folks think. I see accusations of 'sync-dropped premades' still when I absolutely know it isn't the case. I tend to drop with and against the same folks again and again and again and you quickly put together who drops in groups and who doesn't. There's about 8 or so 4-mans at my Elo level that drop together often, maybe a dozen 2 or 3 mans and they win slightly more often than they lose. Many of them also pug. There's one, maybe two groups that I see who probably try to sync-drop but it doesn't often work.

The real issue is that group C pays money and PGI doesn't want to throw them out because they can be hard to separate from the B folks - who often spend a LOT of money. They're invested. They are however relatively toxic to the environment. So now what?

I dunno. I think splitting premades from pugs for a weekend would be hilarious and settle a lot of these conversations out but it wouldn't change anything. I think a lot of premade groups would refuse to play and pretend they had some excuse. The reality is though... what options are there?

[TheGreatNoNo]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

Wow. Time to arbitrarily hate on anyone with a Steiner tag as a synch-dropping pub-stomping tryhard methinks.

That said, I do genuinely find it interesting that they managed to synch drop and ended up on the same side. I synchdrop sometimes with some of the guys I generally drop with and, because our Elo is so similar, if we end up in the same match it almost always dumps us on opposite times.

Maybe they were maphacking to increase their chances of dropping in the same match?

Hating on people that use the tag? Nah, I may not like House Stiener in mech warrior/battle tech but MWO is kind of a different thing. If i wanted to hate on them some i would have left their names in and posted the results, but like I said, even though one of them flat out said they were synch droppers he might have been a troll or joking, those things can at times be hard to read over text. And yes, I`m bitter, but not at house stiener, but in general (*points to his sig*) but eh, my sense of "humor"is ****** and leads to more trouble then its worth.

[HansBlix WMD]

Here's an option. One queue for soloers. Another queue for everyone else. Simple easy.

[Gaan Cathal]

MischiefSC, on 28 June 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

The problem is that there are not enough premades dropping to balance them to each other or themselves. That's the reality of it.

My observation is that this is basically not the case. If there is a degree of Elo-tiering then whatever my tier is sees plenty of premades. If not it may be a timezone effect.

Lost One, on 28 June 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Hating on people that use the tag? Nah, I may not like House Stiener in mech warrior/battle tech but MWO is kind of a different thing. If i wanted to hate on them some i would have left their names in and posted the results, but like I said, even though one of them flat out said they were synch droppers he might have been a troll or joking, those things can at times be hard to read over text. And yes, I`m bitter, but not at house stiener, but in general (*points to his sig*) but eh, my sense of "humor"is ****** and leads to more trouble then its worth.

Oh I'm just thinking given that ~50% (data provide by Office of Fictional Statistics) of people sporting a House tag are emotionally invested in the tag I see it as provocation to increase the success chance of squirreling the gits.

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Here's an option. One queue for soloers. Another queue for everyone else. Simple easy.

Not so simple or easy, this would mean 2-man groups had a huge waiting time for matches and make 3-man groups almost impossible to match. To say nothing of the fact that you'd be splitting a (by most estimates no huge) population further.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 28 June 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[Pando]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Oh Look. You Can't Read. Put yourself in the shoes of a soloer, with 7 other soloers, vs two 4 stacks. That is the norm. Whether it's "me" or some other soloer, what does it matter? That person is going to be more likely to leave the game.

This whole post is full of ignorance due to misinformation. The developers themselves have stated (if you didn't know look for it) that the by far largest majority of matches places groups +2-4 on BOTH sides. Fewer games have a group +2-4 on one side, and the FEWEST games have 1+1+1+1(+)1+1+1+1 v/s 4+1+1+1 or even rarer v/s 4+4

It would be very very very rare for you to be 1+1+1+1(+)1+1+1+1 v/s 4+4.

I understand you want gravy train in your pug games. Fact, a solo ONLY que would fix that. But, we all know that isn't going to happen because it's already been cleared that solo que is going to fill the gaps in 12v12. So, your precious little pugs are going to fill for example a +7 premade with +5 pug players. Guess what you might fight, that's right! A premade group of 12 all on coms.

Unless I'm grossly mistaken, which I'm pretty sure I'm not. Feel free to post me dev comments to prove me wrong.

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Here's an option. One queue for soloers. Another queue for everyone else. Simple easy.

Aside from the developers saying "no" since before open beta...sure "simple easy" HAH.

[Zervziel]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

Your argument from anecdotal evidence: In one game where I was in a stack, we got another stack. So what? What a crappy argument.

What I'm trying to tell you is that as a solo it's obvious when you're against a stack, and it IS NOT FUN. For anyone. YOU ARE DRIVING PLAYERS AWAY. WHY IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

Ha! I've seen more people say their premade went up against another premade group than a bunch of pugs. You're the one blatantly ignoring what people are saying. Is matchmaking perfect? Nope, but it is getting better all the time.

Why is it so hard for you to believe the game isn't out to get you. Everyone has **** luck from time to time.

[Ralgas]

i solo drop fulltime, and my win/loss runs @ around .9 with around 2000 drops down even despite the d/c's and 4 man stompings.

Edit: oh and if you're not happy with the quality of your teammates on drops now a solo queue isn't going to help

Edited by Ralgas, 28 June 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[HansBlix WMD]

More and more posts from stack-whores who feel threatened that they might actually have to fight other stacks. Cowards. But what would you expect from degenerate inner sphere scum anyhow.

[MischiefSC]

Gaan Cathal, on 28 June 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

[/size]

My observation is that this is basically not the case. If there is a degree of Elo-tiering then whatever my tier is sees plenty of premades. If not it may be a timezone effect.

Timezone makes a huge difference. I do know that if I play at peak times it's mostly teams but I tend to avoid playing at that time since I pug. It's not nearly as fun.

[Pando]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

More and more posts from stack-whores who feel threatened that they might actually have to fight other stacks. Cowards. But what would you expect from degenerate inner sphere scum anyhow.

More and more posts from probably the most nescient forum user we have. I play MAX 4 groups and MIN 8 groups daily. I roflstomp and get roflstomped. Depends on who the opponents are. I solo-drop even more frequently for the challenge. I still maintain a 3+ W/L ratio hitting over 2,000 games since ELO dropped. What's your excuse?

Please, threatened? I think you're feeling threatened on the intelligence level.

All I see from your post is

QQQ i can't win
QQQ i want things to be fair
QQQ groups ruin everything
*** insert stomping feet here ***
QQQ there should be a solo only que
QQQ this isn't a team game
QQQ this is a solo playing game
*** insert stomping feet here ***
QQQ im tired of getting my *** reamed by better players
QQQ they are all sync-dropping inner-sphere scum
NEED I GO ON

[The Strange]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

More and more posts from stack-whores who feel threatened that they might actually have to fight other stacks. Cowards. But what would you expect from degenerate inner sphere scum anyhow.

Man, I read this entire thread, and all I have seen from you are caustic replies to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Your sign-up date is 13 days ago. Maybe you should consider that you might be facing opponents that have been playing longer.

I have seen the match maker in this game do some stupid stuff. I have seen 8-mans sync drop, 4-mans on one side but not the other, 200+ tons in weight difference, etc. It does happen, but not very often. Generally speaking, it will balance a premade on one side with a premade on the other. Not all players that have the same house tag are in a group. Sometimes those lone wolves are the ones that are grouped. You can't tell just by looking at the team screen.

Throughout this topic I have seen some long time players try to give you a hint, just to watch you attempt to insult them when they aren't telling you what you want to hear. Well, maybe you should take the hint. If you want to know the real reason you are getting stomped, go look in a mirror. Get a little more experience, learn to play the game, and maybe you won't have that problem anymore.

[Deathlike]

Here's a thought to pugging in general.. and it has less to do with premades than it has to do with communicating with OTHER HUMAN BEINGS... or lack thereof.

PUGGING is hard. It's not meant to be easy and it certainly is NOT FORGIVING. It is an experience where people will go through just to grind... especially when they have no friends available to play with them. It can be an experience in "hating on the last option possible". It's not the end of the world.

This game by far endorses and LITERALLY FUNCTIONS on teamwork. So, if you ever decide to make a random friend on the Internets, it's not a bad thing to do. You should really consider it, AND my suggestion does NOT require you to get any sort of voice chat (but, for your own benefit, you should strongly consider it).

The thing is, this game sometimes can be... unplayable w/o any semblance of teamwork. It doesn't mean you need to be right next to hugging distance to another person... it simply means you need to figure out how to work together. The thing about premades is that they are willing to play together... it's not all of them willfully stack just to screw with you (a portion will, but the majority does not). They just want to enjoy each other... challenge each other... HELP each other.

The problem that primarily exists with MWO is that we have no PUG/TEAM feature that unifies them like some sort of in-game audible messaging system (I don't mean voice chat). I mean vsay type of messages used in various games. While the current lance system still needs improvements (because, it's still kinda lackluster in effectiveness at times), people don't develop a routine to get better... and this game provides little to no training on how you can get better, outside of spectating others while dead... which still doesn't always provide the insight required for a player to get better. It's not that PUGs aren't willing to help other PUGs... but the current system doesn't really produce a method to formalize training. It's almost like you need a heightened skill level or understanding of this game to begin with to even become reasonably adequate in pugging. This is not impossible to teach, but it's difficult to convey through the limited time while pugging.

In sum (or TL;DR), the game even with the nature of the awful trial system can easily make one /ragequit (and it's not hard to do). What YOU and the COMMUNITY has to do (while PGI seemingly refuses to understand and help improve the game) is to help each other out. Yes... helping the PUGs that are in their godawful trial mechs is a effectively a requirement. Otherwise, all we end up doing is a very bastardized version of a "Trial By Fire" where everyone trying to PUG is forced to have a backbone to survive or... just stay alone in this cruel world of pugging. It doesn't hurt to MAKE FRIENDS in this game (and you don't need voice chat to do it with). So for the honest truth, you really should take that option or continue in this vicious cycle...

The best you can do is really do is complain to PGI about how the other systems (not MM related, but more of game functionality) should be improved to promote teamwork... because that's really PGI's problem, not yours.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 June 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

Only weak sissies join groups. They can't take the buttjob in pugs.

[Zervziel]

HansBlix WMD, on 28 June 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

More and more posts from stack-whores who feel threatened that they might actually have to fight other stacks. Cowards. But what would you expect from degenerate inner sphere scum anyhow.

Raege less, it's not good for your health. All you've done is act ****-annihilated when people disagree with you. I play on my own plenty of times and have won and lost an equal amount of times. I don't need the ELP to play, I just find it fun to have people I like to play with.

It's been said before and will be said again: This is a team game. When you run solo completely, you stack the odds against you. As it is, it's not hard to find people on C3, Vent, or TS3 who are willing to form a temp group with you.

Edited by Zervziel, 28 June 2013 - 10:44 PM.

[Novakaine]

Jebus! Stop the moaning.
I truly wish they would separate us.
I pug as much as I play with my Company.
If I win I win, and if I lose I lose.
But this incessant moaning is killing us.
I guess next you'll be asking for instant respawns?
Please just stop it.
Soldier up and enlist.
Or go play COD.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I b pug 4 too long so. I rZ confuzed.



(may that be a bloody good response for a PUG?)