161 replies to this topic

[Villz]

Threads so good even facebook wants in on them.

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

LoL is fun to play on a non-competitive level, and is balanced around it quite frequently. They listen to non-competitive players all the time, because they know that is the majority of the player base. Less than .1% of LoL players are at that level, and they want the other 99.9% to be happy.

Apply that logic here.

Implying he knows how Riot Games operates.

[MaddMaxx]

lartfor, on 04 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

So wait, stating that people who have more knowledge on a subject generally have a better opinion is now elitist?

Nope, not at all. Dismissing people from a debate because you "think" you know better, and then blatantly telling them that, is likely the real issue.

State your opinion, if valid it will hold up. If not, then perhaps it may need some revision. If you can't, or won't, let your thoughts stand on their own merit, then why in hell do you think anyone should else think they have merit either?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 04 July 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[FullMetalJackass]

This is interesting b/c I have dropped 8v8 against some of the more competitive units and they seem to be the ones playing the current PPC meta the most.

[Fate 6]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Implying he knows how Riot Games operates.

You're joking right? Go on the LoL General Discussion forum and count the number of threads in which Riot employees are having meaningful discussion about champion changes. I think it's around 5 unique threads, if not more. Riot clearly values player input. Heck, I myself have actually made a real change to the game through a suggestion thread I made concerning a mechanic with a few champions I played.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion you should take your head out of your *** for once, instead of sabotaging your chances of appearing to have a brain inside that thick skull.

PS - they've also stated several times how much they listen to the players, and more than that they show it. PGI could say they listen to us, but we still wouldn't believe it because there is no meaningful interaction on the forums.

Edited by Fate 6, 04 July 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Chavette]

FullMetalJackass, on 04 July 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

This is interesting b/c I have dropped 8v8 against some of the more competitive units and they seem to be the ones playing the current PPC meta the most.

If pink bubblegum machine guns would be the most useful weapon, thats what they'd run.

You are confusing someones weapon usage choice with their supposed attachment to them, and my first point pretty much invalidates that.

Edited by Chavette, 04 July 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Villz]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

You're joking right? Go on the LoL General Discussion forum and count the number of threads in which Riot employees are having meaningful discussion about champion changes. I think it's around 5 unique threads, if not more. Riot clearly values player input. Heck, I myself have actually made a real change to the game through a suggestion thread I made concerning a mechanic with a few champions I played.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion you should take your head out of your *** for once, instead of sabotaging your chances of appearing to have a brain inside that thick skull.

Resorted to name calling. Bottom teir of discussion. Anecdotal evidence on the fact riot employee's post of the general LoL forum to make the casual player base (their majority) feel taken into account. Sounds like sound marketing to me.

But comparing MWO to LoL is rediculous. MWO is definatly not the the casual friendly runs on any computer experience that MWO is. LoL is no where near on the complexity level of MWO.

Also LoL is 1000% catered to the casual market itself being a less mechanically intensive MOBA in comparison to DOTA2. Everything about riot's business model is mass casual player appeal in its requirements and complexity level. The E-Sport revolution itself is purely forms of player involvement and advertising. Upto full on incentive with cash prizes.

MWO will never be LoL

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 09:12 AM.

[Cubivorre]

Great post, Villz. You DV8's keepin' it realz, yo. /imtotallygangstadawg

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"If you want to have an intelligent discussion you should"

not speak down to the rest of the audience like they were simply ignorant simpletons. It creates bad karma and make you look like a f'ing "douche".

If that is what you really think of everyone else, then put on your best Fire retardant underwear as even a simpleton knows a "personal slight to themselves" when one reads one.

[Villz]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

not speak down to the rest of the audience like they were simply ignorant simpletons. It creates bad karma and make you look like a f'ing "douche".

If that is what you really think of everyone else, then put on your best Fire retardant underwear as even a simpleton knows a "personal slight to themselves" when one reads one.

If your going to use the word karma perhaps using it in the correct context would be preferable whilst attempting to maintain somewhat of an articulate rapport.

[Whompity]

Hindsight is probably telling you you should have taken this proposal to the devs privately.

[Villz]

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Hindsight is probably telling you you should have taken this proposal to the devs privately.

What i did was a move akin to the mantra of judo.

anticipating the incoming force and using it to generate attention to the well written out OP

method in the madness ;-)

You could almost look at this as an intricate game of bumping the thread for exposure to the important part of the thread "OP".

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[Fate 6]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Resorted to name calling. Bottom teir of discussion. Anecdotal evidence on the fact riot employee's post of the general LoL forum to make the casual player base (their majority) feel taken into account. Sounds like sound marketing to me.

But comparing MWO to LoL is rediculous. MWO is definatly not the the casual friendly runs on any computer experience that MWO is. LoL is no where near on the complexity level of MWO.

Anecdotal evidence? Now I know you're joking. Like I said, go on the forums. Unless you don't know what "anecdotal" means, you clearly aren't even reading what I'm saying.

Here's the link to the second thread regarding the issue I was talking about. It was fixed 2 patches later if I remember correctly:
http://na.leagueofle...ht=udyr+stutter

Here's one to one of several discussion about champions where the player base was asked to brainstorm ideas for what we'd like to see for the change: http://na.leagueofle...lk+about+xerath

If you think LoL is less complex than MWO then you have your head in the sand. LoL has a huge number of champions, each with 4 abilities (or more) and a passive, as well as many items, masteries, and runes. Each character has to be balanced compared to all the others and in the context of the items available to them. Game balance changes constantly. And you think MWO is more complex? MWO is based on a system designed to be customization but not complex. Sure, PGI makes it more complex sometimes than it needs to be, but that doesn't mean that balanced actually is complicated in MWO. PGI just adds unneeded complexity.

EDIT: And not only did I not call anybody names, but I'm not the person linking others to Wikipedia in a passive aggressive attempt to insult them

EDIT2: Your comment about "bottom tier (fixed that for you) discussion" is EXACTLY why people don't like you or anybody else who claims to be "high Elo".

Edited by Fate 6, 04 July 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Whompity]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

What i did was a move akin to the mantra of judo...

I guess I missed the masterful subtlety, then.

[Villz]

Fate 6, on 04 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Anecdotal evidence? Now I know you're joking. Like I said, go on the forums. Unless you don't know what "anecdotal" means, you clearly aren't even reading what I'm saying.

Here's the link to the second thread regarding the issue I was talking about. It was fixed 2 patches later if I remember correctly:
http://na.leagueofle...ht=udyr+stutter

Here's one to one of several discussion about champions where the player base was asked to brainstorm ideas for what we'd like to see for the change: http://na.leagueofle...lk+about+xerath

If you think LoL is less complex than MWO then you have your head in the sand. LoL has a huge number of champions, each with 4 abilities (or more) and a passive, as well as many items, masteries, and runes. Each character has to be balanced compared to all the others and in the context of the items available to them. Game balance changes constantly. And you think MWO is more complex? MWO is based on a system designed to be customization but not complex. Sure, PGI makes it more complex sometimes than it needs to be, but that doesn't mean that balanced actually is complicated in MWO. PGI just adds unneeded complexity.

E Z Fishin'

And as you can tell by the view count and reply count of the thread in relation to when it was created you could say its off to a great success !

And what Fate6 (good player just has bad gfx promise >.>) is getting at is that game developers have a large spectrum of players with different desires and abilities to account for.
This is basically 1st year degree level insight and for the thinking person something you would automatically take into consideration.
However it perhaps is such a new revelation to him that he gained through LoL he is really keen to share?

Who knows whats going on inside that head...

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 July 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

So does this involve you guys trying to keep the current boating PPC meta, or fixing it?

Just because it's not very clear, and all the high end teams use it so much (I'm not sure whether it's because they enjoy it or feel it's necessary).

Not normally prone to quoting myself, but I made this post and had to leave. And seems there was some misconception about what I meant.

While I'm fine with the general concept of the high end players helping to balance the game.

I would like it to be a bit more clear what the high end players think would make the game better before I push for this.

For instance, there is a lot of contention surrounding convergence.

And Villz I'm just going to use you as an example because you made the thread. No other connotations involved.

Do you like pinpoint instant convergence?

I feel that in most competitive styled games, the players want pinpoint accuracy because it tends to differentiate between good players and bad players.

In regards to MW:O, I don't think that's really the case. Because of the speed of mechs, the way armor is balanced against weapons, and the fact that they are supposed to be 20-100 ton machines able to take a lot of punishment, instant pinpoint convergence hurts the game.

So i'm not asking in an accusatory manner, I'm interested in what high end players are after?

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 July 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[RG Notch]

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Hindsight is probably telling you you should have taken this proposal to the devs privately.

But then how will the little people know from whence the wisdom came? Oh, you're under the impression this post is designed to help the game and not toot some people's horn. What would be the point of helping out fir free if no one knows about it?

[Fate 6]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

E Z Fishin'

And as you can tell by the view count and reply count of the thread in relation to when it was created you could say its off to a great success !

It was created a while back and resolved. And it was the second one created about the issue (he told me in the first one to remind him later). Why would it need to be recent or have a lot of views? It had a reply from the Riot employee it was directed at. It was a 100% success. Game was changed for the better in a timely manner with little struggle involved.

Maybe I missed your point here. Or did you even have one?

[MaddMaxx]

Villz, on 04 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

If your going to use the word karma perhaps using it in the correct context would be preferable whilst attempting to maintain somewhat of an articulate rapport.

I did.

Quote

• Destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

You were the "cause", we were the "effect".

[Fate 6]

MaddMaxx, on 04 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

I did.


You were the "cause", we were the "effect".

If you're trying to get an actual DISCUSSION out of Villz just give up. He is incapable of having a 2-way discussion. All he knows how to do is name-call and try to insult peoples intelligence. He's never going to give a real response to a counter-argument of any kind.

Honestly, Villz makes me feel really good about myself because he reminds me that I actually am really intelligent compared to the average person. Keep it up Villz, I love the self-esteem boosts you give me.

Edited by Fate 6, 04 July 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Villz]

Olivia Maybach, on 04 July 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

So we've been trolled?

If you read back closely you should be able to see a distinct difference between the correspondance of the On topic posts and the clear off topic attempts to derail the thread.

And @Nicholas well even amongst the "top" players opinions do vary. Personally i believe that hitting @ what u aim @ is an important function to raise the skill ceiling. I think the real problem right now is that long range mechs LRM boats PPC Boats etc are able to deal much to much damage to the enemy team before distance can be closed to even engage in a brawl. And also that the brawling weapons are underpowered in comparison to the brawling weapons. Heat effenciency and pinpoint damage dictates this at that point. Personally i'd like to see a slight ppc projectile speed nerf a sight heat rise and a 5 second cooldown on all large weapons perhaps even 6 (would have to play to know). AC-20's are secretly the best weapon in the game right now. Wait until the 1st assault that can use 3 or maybe 2 and a couple of other pinpoint backups (erppc's ppc's etc). We haven't even touched on double Ultra AC-20's. In battletech lore the AC's arent a single projectile its actually a burst of many projectiles emptied magazine (round) at a time. If they made AC's like a very short duration (1 - 2 second) laser like stream of projectiles it would allow for people to twist damage a bit more and add some interaction for the player to try and mitigate some of the damage to other area's of their mech. I don't think boating is the issue its meerly a symptom of weapon imbalances.By increasing the firing rate of PPC's gauss and AC-20's it would slow damage dealt down a bit and allow (correct weapon balance permitting) brawls to occur. Whilst not completly phasing out ranged tactics all together.

TLDR slower damage being dealt allowing brawls to occur. Adding ways for players to mitigate damage to further increase this effect (rolling damage) and balancing the pinpoint without adding complexity via rediculous boating changes.

But again that's just my own "current" understanding at this time

Edited by Villz, 04 July 2013 - 09:40 AM.