276 replies to this topic

[Halfinax]

Miles Tails Prower, on 09 November 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

Away with your notions of logic and alternatives, you will frighten those afraid of change.

This problem of Clan tech being powerful is not even a new issue to the history of games. Take Warhammer 40K for example, they have a solution for customization.

Each game is just capped with a certain point max and every unit/weapon has a different value. You can juice up 1 vehicle with the maximum most badass weapons that will crush anything 1v1 100% of the time, too bad the other team will be fielding like 60 units to your 1.

Think tonnage caps like in Mech Commander, but instead of it being based solely on the weight of the mech, have it be based on total value of chasis + equipment.

That's Battle Value in the Battletech mechanics, and I agree whole heartedly.

[Sartris]

Halfinax, on 09 November 2011 - 09:27 PM, said:

That's Battle Value in the Battletech mechanics, and I agree whole heartedly.

Atlas AS7-D - 1897 BV
Timberwolf / Madcat Prime - 2737

[Dozer]

It would seem that BV is the basis for balance, and is a tried and tested method.

[Sartris]

It's not a perfect system. TT fans have debated the relative merits endlessly. I find it adequate... but as we all know, this isn't the TT game. Until we see the mechanics of MWO, it is impossible for anyone to say whether BV will be an sufficient measure.

Edited by Sartris, 09 November 2011 - 09:43 PM.

[Kudzu]

Sartris, on 09 November 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

It's not a perfect system. TT fans have debated the relative merits endlessly. I find it adequate... but as we all know, this isn't the TT game. Until we see the mechanics of MWO, it is impossible for anyone to say whether BV will be an sufficient measure.

Unless everyone is forced to use the exact same mech there will not be a perfect balancing system. BV, if done right for the platform and tested well, comes close enough.

[Xhaleon]

Sartris, on 09 November 2011 - 09:34 PM, said:

Atlas AS7-D - 1897 BV
Timberwolf / Madcat Prime - 2737

Yup. For every three Timber Wolves you field, its four Atlases with extra points leftover that you can bring to the table.

[Fameth Sathronaveth]

For myself, I would very much like to see this game stay close to canon, as it is really the lore and the canon that brings the game to life. The Clans coming into the Inner Sphere were unexpected unknown, devastating... and considerably feasible. I think that it will be quite possible for the devs to come up with gameplay that is balanced - balanced not in the sense of IS mechs necessarily being able to take on Clan mechs - but rather balanced according to the lore, to the canon. Balanced according to what happened. Clan mechs one on one or numerically even should typically be able to rip their IS counterparts into metallic shreds. And balanced according to BV [or whatever system is used, BV being, perhaps, our best bet at the moment, players' skill/ranking not withstanding], the IS should be able to make a good, stand against the Clans, more often than not ending perhaps even in victory.

In my mind it is not a question of whether or not the devs should do this, but instead, how well they will do it. So: How well Will they do it? Considering how much Battletech and Mechwarrior experience this Piranha team has, I have high expectations. [Thunder Rampage had a very good point.]

[SteelSpectre]

I'm gonna say that with one of the BTech creators on board, and with them consciously choosing the year of the clan invasion as the time frame, that the Clans will be in the game.

However, there is no reason that the Clans have to be an "alpha class", as they can simply be computer-controlled opponents.

I think it actually makes for a very cool opportunity to have player vs. NPC missions that the Houses employ us in, instead of just "deathmatch"-type battles. We can all take part in the clan invasion, which would be pretty epic, IMO. It also provides a source for powerful equipment and mechs that can balanced by making them rare and difficult or expensive to maintain.

[Mad Pig]

Mine is bigger.... mine is better... blah blah blah look how shiny my clan tech is... makes no difference if you can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag

[Steel Spectre]

Mad Pig, on 09 November 2011 - 10:40 PM, said:

Mine is bigger.... mine is better... blah blah blah look how shiny my clan tech is... makes no difference if you can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag

Yeah, but it makes a difference between two people who can (or can't).

[Glare]

That's why typically battles involving Clan units have about 50% more people on the side that isn't Clan, if there is one.

[katadder]

clan ERlarge laser - range 25 or 750 metres, heat 12, damage 10
IS large laser - range 15 or 450 metres, heat 8, damage 8

My mech can fire 3 IS large lasers to 2 clan erLarge making a higher damage output for same heat output. yes the range differance is 300 metres, however as this isnt turn based and people will keep moving expect about 1 shot extra for the clans. ever played mechwarrior games? try keeping IS mechs out of range whilst staying in your own range, very hard to do.

[Joseph Mallan]

I realize the idea has some work needed, but could the MMO have scenarios for Clans with AI Spheroids and AI Clanners for us House warriors? That would be the "simple" solution for the debate.

Take in consideration my never playing an MMO in your responses gang

[Stonewall]

I love these emphatic threads. Ease up on the brain sweat guys, lets find out a little more about the game and how it will actually work before we get all lathered up and grab our pitch forks. If you aren't careful the devs will be numb to the firer rhetoric before the game comes out.

[Baba Yogi]

This problem could be solved easily by putting more realism in the game (also helping it out). I really want the equipment we have (mechs, weapons vs) to be destructable. Its just much more fun to have that excitement in a game. Economy would be based on maintaining your mechs which i think what devs was intending to go for in 3015 campaign.(ofc rewards have to be more than what you'd normally get and mechs/weapons shouldn't be destroyed as easily as it's in TT to balance it). Add it to the fact that clan tech will probably be extremely hard to get and maintain, it'd just balances itself. But i think bv balance in pvp would shift the odds in IS' favor greatly. Clans in TT are always outnumbered, outarmored and outgunned, eventually you'd just drop those clan tech to have a better/fair game.

[Jack Gallows]

I'm willing to see how the dev's handle it, to be honest.

I'll be playing IS before and after Clans are introduced, I think it'll be a lot more fun.

[Gaius Cavadus]

Battle Value only balances things on a per match basis. What are we gonna do, balance the entire amalgamated BV of each faction too?

Because that'll surely work

BV or not clan tech is superior in every way and every fool in the game will instantly and easily recognize that. BV solves nothing in terms of the metagame. The IS factions are still at a massive disadvantage with crappier mechs and new players will see how five clan mechs can ace twelve IS mechs and LOL hard at the IS.

It's like making a WWII game but giving the British nothing but WWI tech and then expecting there to be balance because you allow more Brit players to take the field. That methodology wouldn't work in that setting and it sure as hell won't work in this one either.

And for the love of pete, is anyone here seriously daft enough to think that if we just make clanners fight as the lore stipulates problems will be solved? And is anyone even more daft enough to presume that forcing roleplay rules onto players is even feasible?

[Havoc2]

I suspect that the Clan vs. IS issues have been addressed by the Devs and doubt that the Clans will be seen as anything other than NPCs or Devs.


I see a House Talk section on the forums, anyone see Clan Chatter?

[Havoc2]

Cavadus, on 10 November 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's like making a WWII game but giving the British nothing but WWI tech and then expecting there to be balance because you allow more Brit players to take the field. That methodology wouldn't work in that setting and it sure as hell won't work in this one either.

Please re-read your WWII history and make an accurate comparison.

German technology was superior in almost every way. It was also more complex to make, took longer to replace, and there were fewer of them.
Look to the Russian solution to the Tiger tank problem. The Russian tank was smaller, less armored, and had less fire power. So they rammed their tanks into the Tigers. Russian tanks were a dime a dozen.

As I said above, I doubt that we will see Clansmen in anything other than NPCs, but even if players can eventually play as Clansmen, the clans had less numbers and had harder times replacing lost weapons/'Mechs. It took them longer to field replacements.

Are you seriously so bad of a pilot/teammate that if you drop in 2 lances vs. a star (8v5) you will be wiped out?

I'm willing to wait and see what the devs have in mind before flipping out and crying about how bad the IS is compared to the Clans when the game hasn't even reached the point of closed beta.

[Korbyn McColl]

The devs have already stated that unit values will play a role in the game (check the interviews). As such, they simply need to have omni-mechs and clan tech have a heavier value than standard IS tech. Problem solved.

EDIT: In the history of man there has never been a war fought where both sides had equal technology and numbers. I always recommend that people interested in the subject pick up John Keegan's "Face of Battle". It's an easy read and he does a great job of explaining these differences without the blandness that so many of us historians are renowned for.

Edited by devil man, 10 November 2011 - 08:18 AM.