73 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok due to all the hype, I decided to boat up and test a Quad PPC Stalker.

My build:

Quad PPCs
20 DHS
300 Std Engine
Max armor I could load out.

Only ran it about 3 matches so far but plan to play it alot more tonight but in those 3 matches I just don't understand why all the hype.

First I was supprised at how heat manageable they were though you still couldn't continious fire more than 3 burst without overheat and I found myself having to alt fire pairs at least 50% of the time. Heat was definately still an issue but I would rate it mostly manageable.

However I didn't see an significant increase in the amount of damage I could do compared to a mix build, nor did I see an elevated kill count.

My best kill count match was 3 Kills where I had 5 enemy mechs in the water near theta on river city. I just stood back and sniped, completely open with no one shooting at me. However I only managed about 380 damage which I could have easily done on my standard build of 2 LL, 4 ML and 2 LRM15+Artemis.

The next two matches were only one kill each with only one of the two matches exceeding 500 damage again nothing I couldn't do with well really any other mech I own all of which run mixed builds.

Additionally I felt like I was actually killing mechs slower due to the fact I am use to using faster firing lasers rather than PPCs.

Now I know 3 matches isn't enough to judge but I felt that all three matches I played were solid matches, in fact two of them were downright easy matches where the enemy was right out in the open and easy to hit.

I guess I honestly don't see why this is suppose to be the ultimate, uber competitive build. I mean it was easy to use but other than that there was just nothing special that stood out about it.

Edit: Before anyone mentions it. I can aim and aim well. Hitting the enemy wasn't an issue.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[The Mechromancer]

its easy to use/get good results.

dont have to worry about ammo (limit, explosions, case weight)

all damage is in 1 spot.

Edited by The Mechromancer, 10 July 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Mechromancer, on 10 July 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

its easy to use/get good results.

Agree completely but my impression based on all the posts I have read is that this build dominates the meta and is Overpowered. Easy does not equal OPed.

[FupDup]

It can one-shot lights and sometimes mediums. Mediums that survive are going to lose a pretty big hunk of armor or sometimes a whole section (i.e. arm or leg).

Edited by FupDup, 10 July 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[InRev]

LL or missile builds often score higher damage numbers because they spread the damage around, often uselessly. With good aim, a PPC Stalker can solo core 3 Atlases but only do about 350 damage, and that's if nobody else is shooting. With teammates, it's not impossible to get 4+ kills and score under 400 damage just because you are a good shot and hitting where it matters.

That is why PPC Stalkers are so feared. They're precision ordinance. They can remove a gun from the field at long range in only a few volleys due to their ability to dump pinpoint damage where it counts.

Edited by InRev, 10 July 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[FupDup]

Oh and by the way, you can fit in a STD 305 if you upgrade to Endo Steel and reduce the leg armor to 65--while still keeping all 20 DHS.

More Optimal PPC Stalker

Edited by FupDup, 10 July 2013 - 09:48 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

InRev, on 10 July 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

LL or missile builds often score higher damage numbers because they spread the damage around, often uselessly. With good aim, a PPC Stalker can solo core 3 Atlases but only do about 350 damage, and that's if nobody else is shooting. With teammates, it's not impossible to get 4+ kills and score under 400 damage just because you are a good shot and hitting where it matters.

That is why PPC Stalkers are so feared. They're precision ordinance. They can remove a gun from the field at long range in only a few volleys due to their ability to dump pinpoint damage where it counts.

I agree about the LRMs but I have no trouble usually with being very precise with Lasers, especially against heavy and assault mechs and usually with mediums as well. However I also mention that my kill counts didn't go up. Now this part will have to bear further investigation because 3 matches is absolutely not enough to judge.

Also I am comparing this against all my mechs, not just my other Stalker build with LRMs. The vast majority of my builds are not LRM builds and only a rare few rely on PPCs for their main punch.

Again I will need to run 20-30 matches on the Quad PPC Stalker to really say for certain but preliminary evidence is showing that the only advantge I can find is Quad PPC builds are easier to learn and use, not that they are definatively better than any other build.

[FrDrake]

FupDup, on 10 July 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

It can one-shot lights and many mediums. Any surviving mediums are most likely going to lose a body section.

You're flat out lieing about mediums..........

Lights I'll give you, but the only 1 shottable medium is the Cicada, which we can all agree is just a light in medium's clothing.

Hunch's take at least 2 alphas just to take the hunch off, you can go for CT first but if you do they will start twisting on you and you're more than likely to get one shot CT, then one shot side torso, one shot arm, then another shot CT when they think they're close enough to fire on you. To kill a Cent in 2 alphas would take close to aim botting skill, that CT is so small.

The only time you're "1 shotting" mediums is if they turn their back to you and you're going through rear armor, but if you're using that argument then you have to throw in heavies as well, because you can side torso rear core a jager with one alpha as well.

They are pinpoint damage, and people don't twist and stand still more than they should. Play a decent medium pilot and they're not getting taken down that fast.

[FrDrake]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Again I will need to run 20-30 matches on the Quad PPC Stalker to really say for certain but preliminary evidence is showing that the only advantge I can find is Quad PPC builds are easier to learn and use, not that they are definatively better than any other build.

They pugstomp well because new players don't instinctively know how to defend against that build, if you're playing decent players they will punish you for mistakes and do their best to mitigate your strengths and it's just as effective as any other build. The HGH 732 is way more OP than quad ppc stalker.

[FupDup]

FrDrake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

You're flat out lieing about mediums..........

Lights I'll give you, but the only 1 shottable medium is the Cicada, which we can all agree is just a light in medium's clothing.

Hunch's take at least 2 alphas just to take the hunch off, you can go for CT first but if you do they will start twisting on you and you're more than likely to get one shot CT, then one shot side torso, one shot arm, then another shot CT when they think they're close enough to fire on you. To kill a Cent in 2 alphas would take close to aim botting skill, that CT is so small.

The only time you're "1 shotting" mediums is if they turn their back to you and you're going through rear armor, but if you're using that argument then you have to throw in heavies as well, because you can side torso rear core a jager with one alpha as well.

They are pinpoint damage, and people don't twist and stand still more than they should. Play a decent medium pilot and they're not getting taken down that fast.

There's also headshots on Centurions (who have relatively large head hitboxes). And yes I was referring to rear armor some of the time, because Cents brawling my teammates sometimes stupidly carry an XL engine and can't face two people on opposite sides--and die instantly from a side-torso pop.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but really you're overestimating just how much PPC fire a medium can take. It might not be instant death from full health all of the time, but they're gonna lose a big hunk of their armor.

Edited by FupDup, 10 July 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree about the LRMs but I have no trouble usually with being very precise with Lasers, especially against heavy and assault mechs and usually with mediums as well. However I also mention that my kill counts didn't go up. Now this part will have to bear further investigation because 3 matches is absolutely not enough to judge.

Also I am comparing this against all my mechs, not just my other Stalker build with LRMs. The vast majority of my builds are not LRM builds and only a rare few rely on PPCs for their main punch.

Again I will need to run 20-30 matches on the Quad PPC Stalker to really say for certain but preliminary evidence is showing that the only advantge I can find is Quad PPC builds are easier to learn and use, not that they are definatively better than any other build.

40 pts pinpoint damage.

You either totally strip a section on most mechs under 80 tons (and seriously hurt a bigger one) and usually have no trouble getting a second volley in (which if you are a leet twitch or an aimbotter will usually be to the same section) which can kill almost any mech. a 3rd volley WILL>

And it doesn't take much skill. Mess with your shader configs and stuff to remove all obscuring smoke, haze and other things, use advanced aim, etc, and you too can be a Metarapist.

I have one with 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC, and TBH, I usually feel as dirty when I play it as I do a 3L. (Which the current meta has me feeling much less dirty about). That said, to get legitimately good at it, you will need more that 3, or 3 dozxen matches.

Also, got a guy in my unit running 3PPC and 3 MLasers, and I would say he averages 6-700 damage and 4 kills. (Unless I steal tthem with my AC40 jager....... PPC Stalker w a AC40 Jager wingman is just scary)

[FrDrake]

FupDup, on 10 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

There's also headshots on Centurions (who have relatively large head hitboxes). And yes I was referring to rear armor some of the time, because Cents brawling my teammates sometimes stupidly carry an XL engine and can't face two people on opposite sides--and die instantly from a side-torso pop.

Ok yea, rear armor is delicious for a pinpoint mech, because your opponent only has to screw up for a split second and you've punished him for it, as opposed to most other dmg types which would need more time to capitalize.

[InRev]

Viktor Drake, on 10 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

I agree about the LRMs but I have no trouble usually with being very precise with Lasers, especially against heavy and assault mechs and usually with mediums as well. However I also mention that my kill counts didn't go up. Now this part will have to bear further investigation because 3 matches is absolutely not enough to judge.

Also I am comparing this against all my mechs, not just my other Stalker build with LRMs. The vast majority of my builds are not LRM builds and only a rare few rely on PPCs for their main punch.

Again I will need to run 20-30 matches on the Quad PPC Stalker to really say for certain but preliminary evidence is showing that the only advantge I can find is Quad PPC builds are easier to learn and use, not that they are definatively better than any other build.

Most people are pretty terrible with lasers. It's a hell of a lot easier to focus damage with Pepsis, so effective quad PPC boats are more common than effective 5 LL Stalkers. That's where the hate comes from. The number of people who can excel in LL boats is quite small, so when someone does well in them, most rational people acknowledge that it's due to pilot ability, not the chassis or build. Any ******* can dominate in a 4PPC Stalker, however.

If you can do as well, or even better, in a LL Stalker than a PPC boat, that just means you're a better player than most, so power to you. You're a rare breed, however, so LL Stalkers are not likely to receive as much hate.

Edit note: Really, forum-overlords? REALLY? s-c-h-m-u-c-k is auto-censored? What in the hell?

Edited by InRev, 10 July 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[xDeityx]

InRev, on 10 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

Edit note: Really, forum-overlords? REALLY? s-c-h-m-u-c-k is auto-censored? What in the hell?

Ridiculous, no? ***** is censored but the plural idiots is not.

Nothing says "treat your customers with respect like adults" like a draconian chat filter.

ESRB already provides the CYA (cover your a**) with "online interactions are not rated."

[armyof1]

OP bro, do you even hillhump?

Sorry just had to be said. As for the 4xPPC Stalker, it's by far the best KDR I've had with an assault, and I'm comparing mastered Atlas vs the 3F Stalker while I was working through the basics. The thing is too easy to use as long as you handle PPCs fairly well. Just peek a little bit over cover, slam home up to 40 damage, duck back down. Rinse and repeat until all opponents are dead, or if you're unlucky enough all your team-mates have suicided and you're going to get surrounded. You'll probably already have 2-3 kills even then.

[xRatas]

I used to run 5 large laser stalker when they were introduced to game. Still seems popular choice, and if you're more into lasers, it might work better for you?

Meta often focuses on one thing and rises it above the level it actually is. PPC and Stalker are both like that. Yes, PPC is really good, boating always works, and Stalker is better than rest of the assaults for damage dealing. No surprise it is now the target of all the QQ.

Try using pair of those laser or PPC stalkers with a friend, and have fun instagibbing anything that comes your way. Lone, it is not the deus ex machina people say it is, but gunline made of those is truly horrifying. Also see how easily it beats any other mech in 1vs1 situation, if they don't get a jump on you.

[John MatriX82]

5-6 PPCs are overpowered, but at least have some downsides (XL engine, uber heat, internals taking damage).

We need an hardpoint restriction system, imho up to 3 PPCs should be fine, starting from 4 and above it shouldn't be allowed anywhere, but then everyone would switch to 3PPC 1 GR (what will happen when they'll introduce those silly heat penalties that won't fix the problem). Any boat it's going to destroy any weapon system, like LRMs above 50, and when PPCs will get nerfed we'll start whining for 4-5-6 LL builds. This hardpoint freedom is likely, but we players simply exploit it, so it shouldn't simply be allowed..

[xRatas]

Have to tell a fun story about 6PPC stalker. Me and my lancemate were circling enemy mech, while third guy from our lance unleashed his PPC fury on that enemy too. Rays went through my back, enemy mech, and finally killed the other medium too. That's most solid shot I've ever seen in this game, 3 kills with one shot. Too bad it was 1 enemy and 2 friendlies though... :-)

[Tennex]

does about the same damage as the AC40 (2x20dmg)

4xPPC = (4x10dmg)

used to run 4 ppcs on my catapult but could only get 3 shots off max b4 overheating. i imagine its a lot bette ron the stalker

Edited by Tennex, 10 July 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 July 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

40 pts pinpoint damage.

You either totally strip a section on most mechs under 80 tons (and seriously hurt a bigger one) and usually have no trouble getting a second volley in (which if you are a leet twitch or an aimbotter will usually be to the same section) which can kill almost any mech. a 3rd volley WILL>

And it doesn't take much skill. Mess with your shader configs and stuff to remove all obscuring smoke, haze and other things, use advanced aim, etc, and you too can be a Metarapist.

I have one with 2 ER PPC and 2 PPC, and TBH, I usually feel as dirty when I play it as I do a 3L. (Which the current meta has me feeling much less dirty about). That said, to get legitimately good at it, you will need more that 3, or 3 dozxen matches.

Also, got a guy in my unit running 3PPC and 3 MLasers, and I would say he averages 6-700 damage and 4 kills. (Unless I steal tthem with my AC40 jager....... PPC Stalker w a AC40 Jager wingman is just scary)

Keep in mind, I got over 1700 matches played so aiming isn't an issue. I am not some nub off the boat that doesn't have a clue how to hold aim and I learned on lasers which require even more percision in aiming to be successful with.

The 3 matches are just with a Quad PPC build which isn't any harder to use than a dual PPC build or even a single PPC build. As long as you can hit with one PPC, your golden as far as the actual skill involved is concerned.

As far as 40 points in a single volley, thats not too hard. My Dragon Slayer with a Gauss, ER PPC, 2 ML set up can pound out 35 damage to a single section easily and that is not even counting extra damage from the streaks I have that may or may not hit where I want them to. I will grant you that I can't do it past 270m because of the MLs but the DS is also a hell of alot more mobile than the Stalker so getting to those ranges isn't often an issue.

I guess that is my point, I just don't see how the Quad PPC set up is actually better or even perhaps not enough better to justify all the rage, controversy and praise that it gets here on the forums.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 July 2013 - 10:28 AM.