1084 replies to this topic

[Ralgas]

Braggart, on 11 July 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

really ***.......................................... Cause they cant make a change to the damage values when the fix go lives? Do you see what I did there. I thought about the situation. They will know when they fix the issue, and before they put it live, they can tweak damage values down some at the same time.

Or we can sit around and do nothing for who knows how long and have worthless SRMS............................................... Great googley moogley.

you missed the part where he said it's going to be inconsisant yeah? it least if this change sux he can wave tis hread in our faces and say "i gave you the choice!"

[Kunae]

Monky, on 11 July 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I am fine with a 2.0 damage per missile combined with the heat penalty for now. This combined with reduced or removed splash would be acceptable until the hit detection issue is sorted. However it must be re-evaluated once that is fixed!

3SRM6, 3 SRM 4, A1's.

Not that much different than a standard splat, with better heat efficiency.

[Master Q]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

They're wrong for wanting that too. The system itself is just dumb. If they want to nerf PPC and ac40 alpha builds than they should just do so directly, rather than trying to implement some sort of idiotic cure all by upping the heat of all weapons, some of which traditionally generate almost none. There are plenty of solutions here, the ones PGI keeps trying just happen to be the worst possible.

Well the best fix would be to eliminate instant/perfect weapon convergence because convergence is the root of every problem we are seeing.The problem is that PGI seem to have giant blinders on them and refuse to acknowledge this point. Blanket penalties to alpha-boating is a mid-gap fix and not as good as actually fixing the convergence issue but at this point until they wake up to that realization there's nothing to do.

Fix convergence issues so that an AC/40 Jager's alpha hits two panels instead of one and you make every aspect of the game better.

[Shumabot]

Kunae, on 11 July 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

Why are AC20's on the list? The only two mechs that can run 2 AC20's have distinct vulnerabilities, built in.

K2: Head hitbox the size of France. Slow.
Jaeger: XL engine is pretty much mandatory, and with it's large, easy to hit, side torsos, this mech is easy to kill with accuracy.

It also doesn't help that the exponential heat increase for firing 2 AC20s would have to be insane, practically overheating the jager in a single shot just for shooting a second ac20. Otherwise in the cooldown period it's going to cool down almost completely, thus making the heat scaling change utterly pointless and stupid.

[Kunae]

Accursed Richards, on 11 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Just let this myth die already. Everything is easy to kill with accuracy.

What myth? Jaegers are stupidly easy to kill.

[Shumabot]

Master Q, on 11 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well the best fix would be to eliminate instant/perfect weapon convergence because convergence is the root of every problem we are seeing.The problem is that PGI seem to have giant blinders on them and refuse to acknowledge this point. Blanket penalties to alpha-boating is a mid-gap fix and not as good as actually fixing the convergence issue but at this point until they wake up to that realization there's nothing to do.

Fix convergence issues so that an AC/40 Jager's alpha hits two panels instead of one and you make every aspect of the game better.

I agree that convergence would help with ac40 and PPC boating to an extent, but those builds would still be much better than non boated builds on the same chassis. Boating provides far more benefits than just easy convergence.

[MountainCopper]

Zerikin, on 11 July 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Heat scaling will not fix the alpha strike meta. The core of the problem is the ability to have all the damage hit a single point.

What are you trying to propose? Something like multiple shots fired at the same time can't hit the same component/area of the Mech?
Like, firing 2x AC20 and they are forced to hit two different parts of the Mech? The same for 4x PPCs?

Sound interesting and very good to be honest. Would like that to be considered at least.

[soapyfrog]

This heat scale thing is really not good. It's unneccesarily complex and produces some damn weird results. Is the intention here that 2x ERPPC + 2x PPC will produce less heat than 4x PPC? Because that is the kind of unintentional consequences that come out of this. Instead of an SRM6 cat you'll have a 3xSRM6, 3xSRM4 cat. Is that the solution you are looking for? A mech that can still wreck an assault class mech in 3 volleys? How about Gauss Rifles? How about the fact that this does zippo to eliminate the one of the most overpowered loadouts in the game right now, 2xPPC + Gauss?

Pinpoint alpha strikes can be fixed instantly by introducing a stacking accuracy penalty for simultaneously fired weapons (fired within less than 0.5 seconds). This fixes the boating problem, the pinpoint alpha problem, and does so without massively disrupting weapon balance.

It is an elegant solution rather than this arcane heat scale thing, and it will promote a wider variety of valid mech designs, higher battlefield survivability for all mechs, and more interesting gameplay. This heat scale solution will result in there being a handful of good builds (weapon combinations min-maxed for maximum alpha and minimum heat scale penalty).

Surely you must have discussed internally an accuracy penalty instead? What are the reasons for avoiding that much nicer solution?

[Gallowglas]

Most of this sounds fine, but I think the LL cap needs to be 3-4, not 2. Otherwise, I think we'll just see a shift to ML boating. Frankly, I'm not convinced that LL's even need an adjustment or cap at all. Was anyone really complaining about them? From what I have seen, they seem to be almost universally considered the most balanced weapon.

What about the other weapons (AC/2, UAC/5, MPL, etc?). For balance's sake, won't these need the same treatment?

[Shumabot]

Kunae, on 11 July 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

What myth? Jaegers are stupidly easy to kill.

Yeah, with heavier PPC boats or other ac40 jagers. Anything less and you're going to get crushed.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Kunae, on 11 July 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

3SRM6, 3 SRM 4, A1's.

Not that much different than a standard splat, with better heat efficiency.

Yeah, the Heat System Penalties will not "stop" splattering or anything like that. I always ran my SplatCat as 4SRM6 + 2SRM4 anyways to save some weight and heat.

In fact, this heat system is not intended to be the sole means by which to curb PPC+Gauss Sniping, either. More changes are inbound. It's folly to get up and say "This System Won't Stop the Meta!" because the heat penalty system, alone, is not intended to stop PPC+Gauss sniping. That's like complaining that "The Airbag failed to save me from a fuel explosion."

Edited by Prosperity Park, 11 July 2013 - 12:24 PM.

[Kunae]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yeah, with heavier PPC boats or other ac40 jagers. Anything less and you're going to get crushed.

Pft.

They are easy meat for any Jenner that's not built stupid. Also for any other mech that effectively engages them from beyond 300m. Basically anything with Large Lasers.

[Padic]

If it helps with the diagnosis of the hit-detection issue, I suspect it has existed since before the introduction if HSR.

Before the big missile nerf, following LRMageddon (Which I believe happened before any HSR, let alone HSR for missiles), I have vivid memories of occasionally, watching an SRM12 one-shot a tiny mech (Commando and Jenner stand out), and occasionally watching an SRM12 bounce off a tiny mech (Ravens stand out).

Of course, because these mechs were small relative to the potential spread of the missiles, and tended to move faster, AND HSR was not yet implemented, I can't really speak to whether or not my missiles were actually striking home.

Good luck, testers. Good luck, coders.

[Gallowglas]

BTW, may I suggest that you not drop the cap to 100% at the same time that you put in the weapon heat caps? It sure seems like you're going to get a huge, disruptive swing if you do both at the same time and maybe you find out that the first fix was fine on its own. Frankly, I think a better implementation would be to have 100-119% heat just give you a penalty (larger reticle) for a few minutes after shutdown. Save the bigger penalty for the larger heat overage.

[Troggy]

Um...you know that's a PGI dev build, right? He is making fun of it, in order to enhance his point...which you have very clearly missed.

--
Troggy

Braggart, on 11 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

why not go for something a bit more useful to the team such as lrm 15s and large lasers.

Your other option is fire 2 volleys with .5 inbetween each volley, and then you negate the heat penalty. Please think before you post.

[Mister Blastman]

DisasterMedic, on 11 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

For those of you wondering if PGI even understands how the mechanics of their own game works, I present to you:



If they actually knew anything whatsoever about their own product, they might stop wasting time on non-issues and focus on sensible balance fixes. Since they do not, it's kind of pointless having another thread filled with better solutions to the alleged problem which will be summarily discarded and ignored.

Annnnnnd WE HAVE A WINNNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shumabot]

Kunae, on 11 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Pft.

They are easy meat for any Jenner that's not built stupid. Also for any other mech that effectively engages them from beyond 300m. Basically anything with Large Lasers.

Except when they hit you in your little xl side and you explode in one shot.

[Gallowglas]

Shumabot, on 11 July 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Yeah, with heavier PPC boats or other ac40 jagers. Anything less and you're going to get crushed.

My LL Stalker or even my 4 ML, 2 AC/10 K2 would beg to differ. I wrecked three of them in a single game last night with my K2. Yes, that's anecdotal. Yes, the ac40 Jaeger needed an adjustment, but they're not some unstoppable juggernaut.

Granted, if you manage to let one catch you in close range then, yes, you're going to get crushed. We're talking about a situation in which you've placed yourself at a strategic disadvantage though.

Edited by Gallowglas, 11 July 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Braggart, on 11 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

why not go for something a bit more useful to the team such as lrm 15s and large lasers.

Your other option is fire 2 volleys with .5 inbetween each volley, and then you negate the heat penalty. Please think before you post.

Ummm... you completely missed his point!

The Developer has 2 TAG lasers...

TWO OF THEM.

[Marineballer]

PPC and ER PPC should be one group. When not, the Stalker will drive 2 PPC and 2 ER PPC and Highlander, Phracte, Viktor will take 2 PPC and 1 ER PPC.

Problem isn't solved