1084 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

Also, I do not see UAC5 or AC2 or similar on this heat list. Perhaps they will come later? Perhaps they only started code for what they feel are worst offenders or something?

A clarification post on the main thread by Paul on plans to include all weapons or not would be nice.

[HitTheCity]

I've been a lurker on the forums for some time, but I think this might be my first post. I feel compelled to add my voice to the chorus of those stating this new 'MaxAlpha' system is a bad idea.

Adding yet another system (and a hidden, non-intuitive one at that) to try and address balance issues is bad. Especially since logical arguments as to why this system won't be effective in addressing the problem it is trying to solve have been stated many, many times. Instead of listening and spending time and effort implementing any of the many superior ideas to solve the issue, PGI seem hell bent on plowing forward anyway, to hell with the consequences.

PPCs are OP, that is why the current meta exists. Instead of introducing this new system, why not try bumping the heat and slowing the projectile speed on them instead. And maybe increase the projectile speed of the gauss at the same time so their respective speeds are different enough to make alpha sniping from long range with gauss + PPCs much harder?

Also, I like the idea of heat damage occuring as soon as 100% heat is reached, but as somebody else stated, for goodness sake don't allow damage to occur if you're shutdown. It takes away the decision on whether to override shutdown or not. Why would you ever NOT override if you're going to take damage anyway?

[Xenon Codex]

Hmmphh. I don't feel my 4 LL Flame is oppressive but apparently it is.

Seems like they're trying add heat penalties on a range/damage scale factor. 30 damage at 270m (6 ML), to 18 damage (2 LL) at 450m, to 20 damage (2 PPC) at 650m, to 20 damage at 850m (2 ERPPC). Oh wait, something's amiss...those PPC's are still the better weapon. Pinpoint damage and longer range.

Laser's already provide a pretty effective heat deterrent vs. pilot skill to pinpoint. I'd petition to remove them from the equation entirely and only factor in instant-damage pinpoint weapons. Or come up with an alternative heat system that factors in all weapons equally that hardened veterans and newbies alike can understand. Maybe Paul will have an epiphany this weekend, one can hope.

[Too Much Love]

WTF?!

First, everybody crying about high aphas and etc., and then almost 80% of people vote to kill Atlas in 2,5 volleys.

Prepare for the next round of "nerf SRM whining".

By the way, Paul, thx for the explanation and for the reaction on the community needs. It's better late then never.

Anyway, it shows that PGI tries to listen to the community and do as it wants. But sometimes community just reacts as a little babies...

[Zordicron]

Lindonius, on 11 July 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

What's gonna happen when new players spend REAL MONEY on this champion mech?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=85&l=stock

It's STOCK LOADOUT will melt them quicker than an ice cube in hell and they will have no idea why. Unless you add health and safety banners on the log-in screen explaining how they can't use the mech with the default weapons that you supplied them with because it will make the mech EXPLODE!

Pretty sure the stock loadout also has weapons split in like 4 triggers. Therefore, by design, it should not be using enough lasers to instate the penalty unless more then one trigger is fired. I might be wrong on this, as I havent bought that particular variant(not the C one anyway). Splitting weapons into groups on multiple triggers to establish range and heat managment is a key point of battle tech PC game play, much like chainfire. It is part of the mechlab warrior aspect.

[hammerreborn]

Eldagore, on 11 July 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Pretty sure the stock loadout also has weapons split in like 4 triggers. Therefore, by design, it should not be using enough lasers to instate the penalty unless more then one trigger is fired. I might be wrong on this, as I havent bought that particular variant(not the C one anyway). Splitting weapons into groups on multiple triggers to establish range and heat managment is a key point of battle tech PC game play, much like chainfire. It is part of the mechlab warrior aspect.

Don't correct him, he's rolling.

[Lindonius]

HitTheCity, on 11 July 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Instead of listening and spending time and effort implementing any of the many superior ideas to solve the issue, PGI seem hell bent on plowing forward anyway, to hell with the consequences.

I also find it ironic that the mods are deleting posts in this thread for being "unconstructive" when it's just been made abundantly clear how much the developers have valued our "constructive" feedback with regards to this issue over the last 3 months.

Edited by Lindonius, 11 July 2013 - 06:40 PM.

[kesuga7]

well theres gonna be lots of abusers until the 30th (ppc+er ppc with gauss)

the developers are not that blind that whats goin on guys



abusing a weapon to prove its overpowered is pointless when there is a confirmed fix coming


May the Ac 40 jaggers and ppc boaters be purified upon tuesday!!

May our patch prayers come true!

Praise Russ!


edit: thats why 'that' was in bold

Edited by kesuga7, 11 July 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[Too Much Love]

I wonder, who was horrified by 3 or 4 LLasers? Why I can't fire 3 or 4 without penalty?

And what about other wheapons types, like Pulse Lasers and LRM 20?

[Aslena]

Fix HSR!!
The rest is all meaningless until it is fixed, and the heat stuff is over complex garbage

Edited by Aslena, 11 July 2013 - 07:35 PM.

[Lindonius]

Eldagore, on 11 July 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Pretty sure the stock loadout also has weapons split in like 4 triggers. Therefore, by design, it should not be using enough lasers to instate the penalty unless more then one trigger is fired. I might be wrong on this, as I havent bought that particular variant(not the C one anyway). Splitting weapons into groups on multiple triggers to establish range and heat managment is a key point of battle tech PC game play, much like chainfire. It is part of the mechlab warrior aspect.

And how does grouping the weapons like that tell the new player that if he fires all the weapons at once he's gonna roast like a pig on a spit?

You know new players are gonna instantly regroup their weapons so that they can fire the alpha because there isn't anything inherent in the game that tells them that they shouldn't.

Edited by Lindonius, 11 July 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[Master Q]

kesuga7, on 11 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

the developers are not that blind that whats goin on guys

Given that they won't address the root cause of all these issues (instant/perfect convergence), yes there is.

I suggest they view these two videos:

PA Extra Credits: Balancing For Skill http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

PA Extra Credits: Playing Like A Designer Pt 2 http://penny-arcade....-designer-pt.-2

Please watch them. Pay extra attention to the problem of First-Order Optimal Strategies. That is what your insistence on keeping the clear design flaw of instant, perfect convergence with certain weapons is creating.

It'll take you 20 minutes to understand what's really going on. Take some advice on game design from someone outside your little echo chamber and outside the realm of your {Noble MechWarrior} suckups for once.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

This is just plain stupid.
Just raise PPC and AC/20 heat back to what they were before.
This convoluted system is just asking for trouble and exploitation.

[Phemeto]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 11 July 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

This is just plain stupid.
Just raise PPC and AC/20 heat back to what they were before.
This convoluted system is just asking for trouble and exploitation.

I agree....

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

I have a better idea, how about instead of putting it to your drooling community to vote on, you hire someone competent enough to have a long term vision for weapon balance and fix them accordingly?

[Spazzy Pete]

This max alpha thing seems like a very poor idea. Why are you jumping up to increase complexity and add a wierd new system to the game? Have you stopped to consider if this will be fun? How will this make any sense to a new player happily spending their first Cbills? How will it even really make sense to vets?

Just increase Mech health and fix brawling. You need to fix SRMs, and fix them now - increase the damage right now while you work on the hit detection, fine, but you need to increase them anyway. Fix pulse lasers so that there is a reason to carry them. Get brawling working, and then watch the meta and see what happens. Nerf PPCs a little bit, a touch more heat or slower projectile again. Why are you so convinced these simple changes won't work?

Multiple play styles should be viable. Sniping should still be a thing, so should poptarting, so should brawling. If one of those things is overpowered, make subtle adjustments and monitor the situation. Why can this not be accomplished without needlessly adding more layers to the game system?

[Skyfaller]

Paul,


I'm sorry to say this but you guys are tackling the alpha damage problem the wrong way.

Lets assume this heat scale patch went live. Right now.

Let me tell you exactly what will happen:

Players will switch from the very desirable single type, front loaded pinpoint damage weapon (ballistic/ppc) to multiple weapon types that still are front loaded pinpoint damage.

Aka, a Cataphract 1x will change from boating 4 ppcs to boating 2 PPCs and 1 ac20 (or 1 gauss).

The problem is not in the heat scale (except that PPCs should be 10 heat as per canon!) but in the fact that front loaded weapons (aka anything but lasers) have perfect convergence and this allows all damage to fly into one armor section.

I refer you to a way to fix this without getting into messy heat rules which cookie-cutter the game and will only bite this game in the rear end later on.

http://mwomercs.com/...boat-spam-meta/

kesuga7, on 11 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

the developers are not that blind that whats goin on guys

You think? I can't tell.. us color blind players have been asking for a simple g-damn hud icon color change for a very long time and it never happens.

[Tarzilman]

I've read the whole thread.
For those who didn't and still think, you can choose 2 ERPPC and 2 PPC instead of 4 from each one: They will be put together in one weapon group on July 30th!

For the haters, that will uninstall the Game now: Bye bye! Several birds killed with one stone I'd say. A (little) step in the right direction plus banishing those players who used that boat-builds. Haha!

For all those smartasses, who know everytbing better than the programmers: Pls go with the haters and satisy us with your own-made MW-Game!

It's like: "You dumbasses, the game is totally imbalanced, change it, NOW!"
Then they do some changes and it's like: "WTF you dumbasses, are you kidding me? Don't do that changes!"

Maybe, heat scale isn't the perfect way to get away from boating, but at least they do something and try out something. Many players here dislike the boating situation and there are some good ideas on their way through the forums. Just let the devs try out and find the right way. For now there's a lot of work to do before release in september and the actually discussed changes can be just a temporary solution until then.

[GaussDragon]

HitTheCity, on 11 July 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

I've been a lurker on the forums for some time, but I think this might be my first post. I feel compelled to add my voice to the chorus of those stating this new 'MaxAlpha' system is a bad idea.

Adding yet another system (and a hidden, non-intuitive one at that) to try and address balance issues is bad. Especially since logical arguments as to why this system won't be effective in addressing the problem it is trying to solve have been stated many, many times. Instead of listening and spending time and effort implementing any of the many superior ideas to solve the issue, PGI seem hell bent on plowing forward anyway, to hell with the consequences.

PPCs are OP, that is why the current meta exists. Instead of introducing this new system, why not try bumping the heat and slowing the projectile speed on them instead. And maybe increase the projectile speed of the gauss at the same time so their respective speeds are different enough to make alpha sniping from long range with gauss + PPCs much harder?

Also, I like the idea of heat damage occuring as soon as 100% heat is reached, but as somebody else stated, for goodness sake don't allow damage to occur if you're shutdown. It takes away the decision on whether to override shutdown or not. Why would you ever NOT override if you're going to take damage anyway?

You should post more often. I know it's hard to take that first step when there are tons of people here still arguing for the wholesale copying of values from a table top game to a real-time computer game.

[Anjian]

I started the game on medium mechs whose main weapon was SRMs. In paper, an SRM buff is supposed to be bad for big mecchs, good for little mechs, but in my experience during the height of the SRM power, this wasn't the case. Little and medium mechs are easily obliterated point blank by combined batteries of SRMs, lasers and cannon from big mechs in those close brawls.

Smaller mechs get hotter faster than big mechs, due to the fact they can't soak up enough heat. They got less built in heat sinks, can load less additional heatsinks, especially with double heat sinks taking up three slots. Large mechs can hold larger engines that also add two, three or even more heatsinks, which are difficult for smaller mechs.

Whatever buff SRMs get that will help small mechs, it gets countered by the heat scale on the energy end, and the primary direct weapon of smaller mechs are energy.

So I am not sure if this helps smaller mechs at all. Bigger mechs on the other hand, especially assaults, are weapons versatile. They can shift to whatever weapons flavor of the month it is, PPC boat to LRM boat, etc,.