62 replies to this topic

[KuruptU4Fun]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

Hell I can poptart one and go over 50. (these are without speed tweak)

Poptart:


Non tart:

Those are with 2 Gauss and one ERPPC, I was saying an Illya can boat 2 Gauss/ and 2 PPC...

[Sprouticus]

mania3c, on 19 July 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Serious question..but was 2PPC + gauss ever a problem? I can't remember time when this combo was overpowered.. it could be pretty strong on stationary target at long range..but in real brawl or long range combat with a lot of movement.. it's pretty sub-optimal to shoot everything at once..

As someone pointed out, it was an issue when combined with jump sniping. I dont think many people consider it a problem currently. If they do they need their heads examined. There are far too many soft and hard counters to it. (fast medium and assult brawlers being the best.

One side note:

If you have player, or can play, a 4 PPC, 6 PPC, or 3 PPc/gauss mech and do well in it, i salute you.

Guess what....most people can't. Most people suck at managing their heat.

So sure, some people will run those configs and continue to tear **** up. But then again, there are still jump snipers out there too, and some of them are amazing. Yet no one complains about them. Because we all know it takes a high level of skill to do it well.

[Mystere]

One Medic Army, on 19 July 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Or we might actually see people using largelasers at high levels of play O_O

Psst! I quickly mastered a JM6-A packing 1 AC/20 and 2 LLs. Sure, I died a lot. But, I also killed a lot as well.

Edited by Mystere, 19 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[3rdworld]

KuruptU4Fun, on 19 July 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Those are with 2 Gauss and one ERPPC, I was saying an Illya can boat 2 Gauss/ and 2 PPC...

oh. That would be a squeeze.

[KuruptU4Fun]

3rdworld, on 19 July 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

oh. That would be a squeeze.

Yeah heat efficiency is crap, and it's biggest engine was an XL225. Ammo was a problem too.

[Tarrasque]

Waking One, on 19 July 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

2PPC+gauss is not that much of a problem, never has been, never will be. Or to be more precise, it was a problem because of poptarting only. Sure it's high damage but it's manageable and PPCs explode easily.

40 damage alpha is where the problem really starts, with random lucky headhots and **** like that

btw arguments about flanking snipers and all are positively moronic, its not like ERPPCs gauss etc. are any weaker up close. *facepalm* especially with the seismic sensor around lol

Might I add that it's asinine to even compare them to 'snipers', as a sniper attempting to shoot a mid to close range enemy with their rifle would be killed rather quickly and easily, not perform exactly the same way if not better than they were at range.

[Noxcuse]

the patch wash ******** , nothing has real changed..nice work IGP ..thx for again nothing

[mack sabbath]

Homeless Bill's vids are empirical evidence if PGI will look them over.

Edited by Die Primate Die, 19 July 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Warge]

SkyCake, on 19 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

brawling has returned...

Due to SRM damage =2.

[SkyCake]

Ningyo, on 19 July 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

you do realize only 3 mech builds have been significantly affected by the heat scale modifications.
6 PPC stalker
AC/40 jagger/pult
4+ LL

everything else can make minimal to no changes as do exactly like before, including:
Gauss +2 PPC
Gauss +2 PPC + ERPPC
Gauss +2 PPC +2 ERPPC
2PPC +2 ERPPC
6ML + 3 MPL/LL/SPL (hunchback)
2 Gauss
AC/20 + PPC combos
AC/20 + gauss

in other words the heat scale modification was 99% useless at addressing what it was made to address, BUT it makes the game far more confusing to new players and others that have not read the forums. Overall it is the travesty a large portion of the players said it would be on the forums.

6 PPC stalker
AC/40 jagger/pult
4+ LL

you do realise that these three builds alone were responsible for the bland and one dimensional play ruining the game as of late... the fact that the patch invalidated these builds over night without wrecking the game, in fact improving it, is nothing short of astonishing....

Gauss +2 PPC + ERPPC
Gauss +2 PPC +2 ERPPC
2PPC +2 ERPPC

these arent much of a problem now and will NOT be a problem when ppc and erppc get thrown into the same boat....

Gauss +2 PPC
6ML + 3 MPL/LL/SPL (hunchback)
2 Gauss
AC/20 + PPC combos
AC/20 + gauss

these builds were never a problem and certainly arent now... reticle shake has taken care of poptarting... two gauss is slow, XL dependant, easy to kill, and their relatively slow projectiles... ac/20 ppcs combos run hot and are actually bad together due to the ppc losing all effectiveness in close quarters....

i find it hilarious that most people in these forums seem not to notice the glaring contridictions made when commenting on game features concerning their effects on new players... for instance, most people here oppose 3rd person view being implemented in this game because it caters to noobish play... then in another post they'll opine about an elegant solution being implemented in the game becuase it makes the game harder to understand for noobs.... im sure now that these forum posters couldnt give two p00ps about newbies... they only use the noob argument to further their own agendas...

in conclusion... brawling is back, sniping is still legit without being op, lights are surviving, mediums have been rejuvenated... this patch is a huge success!!!

[verybad]

Ningyo, on 19 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

@ Steelclaws: Yes but he said this patch fixed them. And even on the 30th when you can't combine PPC+ERPPC to get around it, the heat scale modifications will still be near useless. They just will further force players towards the already very powerful Gauss+PPC combos.

Gauss +3 PPC will be able to have 2 fire groups a Gauss +2 PPC and a full alpha. For regular firing just use 2 PPC+ gauss for a near heat neutral 35 dmg. And when you line up a better shot take the extra heat for your 45 dmg hit.


And yes the medium laser boats are no problem, they weren't before and this as I said had minimal affect on them.

Yeah, and isn't the whole point to reduce boating? Gauss + PPC isn't boating. It's combining two different weapons for a purpose...

Edited by verybad, 19 July 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

Match occurred about a half hour ago... it speaks for itself:


Easy/cheese mode enabled

The worst part of the match was that I killed someone that was in the trial atlas... it died by ammo explosion. I felt bad because, the ammo placement is craptacular as I've stated in the Atlas-RS (Champion) thread. Go figure.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 July 2013 - 02:55 PM.

[jakucha]

Sprouticus, on 19 July 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

@skycake,

You will never get the haters to agree, I have given up trying. Some folks actually want to talk about fixes, but most of these guys are either

1) Looking for a reason to complain.
2) Have a pet change they want implemented and will hate anything that is not 'their' fix.


oh, forgot one

3) will complain about the rate of change, even if they do agree. (mind you I agree that PGI needs to increase their rate of change, I just don't see the value in whining about it).

This is true. In gameplay balance, ego is king.

Deathlike, on 19 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Match occurred about a half hour ago... it speaks for itself:


Easy/cheese mode enabled

The worst part of the match was that I killed someone that was in the trial atlas... it died by ammo explosion. I felt bad because, the ammo placement is craptacular as I've stated in the Atlas-RS (Champion) thread. Go figure.

I've been managing numbers up to and around 899, with kills in my 4sp. PPCs still need some fixing, but they're not the only weapon to use now.

Edited by jakucha, 19 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Chavette]

Sprouticus, on 19 July 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

cite some actual numbers or I call I BS.

The simple fact you need citement tells we're not on the same page and have nothing to talk about.


The reason we have more brawling now(because we do have more brawling now, thank god) is because of the SRM buff, not the alpha nerf.

Edited by Chavette, 19 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

Die Primate Die, on 19 July 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Homeless Bill's vids are empirical evidence if PGI will look them over.

Other things to note about those videos:

• I didn't cherry-pick those rounds. I did a couple games in the 732 to warm up and see what was going on, and then I shot those three videos in the next three rounds: 732 --> 3D --> 3F. After that, I got in my Pretty Baby and never came out. **** yeah brawling.
  
• I intentionally exercised poor fire discipline to incur the penalties. Look at the Stalker video: towards the end, I'm alpha striking the Cataphract for no reason, practically begging to die. With some smarter brawl-shooting to avoid the heat penalty, it would have been business as usual.

[Deathlike]

jakucha, on 19 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've been managing numbers up to and around 899, with kills in my 4sp. PPCs still need some fixing, but they're not the only weapon to use now.

That's good. I think the SRM buff should stay even when they fix HSR. The thing is that brawling had suffer for a while and the community IMO voted correctly (for the SRM buff). I did see some splatcats, but I think some people have forgotten their existence and also don't recall how to counter them. The SRM buff was needed to bring back brawling and some weapon diversity.. but we're still kinda somewhat there for complete weapons balance (besides PPCs, there's the MG, MPL, LPL, Flamer, and a few others I'm forgetting that still need help).

[Ningyo]

Explained everything in Bold Italic

SkyCake, on 19 July 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

6 PPC stalker Was a mediocre build before is weak now
AC/40 jagger/pult Was a mediocre build before is weak now
4+ LL Was a crap build before, is even worse now

you do realise that these three builds alone were responsible for the bland and one dimensional play ruining the game as of late... the fact that the patch invalidated these builds over night without wrecking the game, in fact improving it, is nothing short of astonishing....

Gauss +2 PPC + ERPPC Was one of the strongest build before was unaffected
Gauss +2 PPC +2 ERPPC Was strong before is strong now
2PPC +2 ERPPC Was one of the strongest builds before is unaffected

these arent much of a problem now and will NOT be a problem when ppc and erppc get thrown into the same boat....

Gauss +2 PPC Was strong before is unaffected
6ML + 3 MPL/LL/SPL (hunchback) Was weak before is still weak
2 Gauss Was mediocre before is unaffected
AC/20 + PPC combos only listed as alternative to Gauss PPC combos generally considered worse but decent
AC/20 + gauss Only listed as this is a likely replacement for AC/40 and is still mediocre (often has ML with it)

these builds were never a problem and certainly arent now... reticle shake has taken care of poptarting... two gauss is slow, XL dependant, easy to kill, and their relatively slow projectiles... ac/20 ppcs combos run hot and are actually bad together due to the ppc losing all effectiveness in close quarters....

i find it hilarious that most people in these forums seem not to notice the glaring contridictions made when commenting on game features concerning their effects on new players... for instance, most people here oppose 3rd person view being implemented in this game because it caters to noobish play... then in another post they'll opine about an elegant solution being implemented in the game becuase it makes the game harder to understand for noobs.... im sure now that these forum posters couldnt give two p00ps about newbies... they only use the noob argument to further their own agendas...
The argument being made against this is that it did NOT nerf high pinpoint alpha sniper builds which were OP especially in the hands of good players. It did nerf bad to mediocre builds that did not need nerfed. AND it will make the game HARDER to balance. AND MOST OF ALL it is very newbie unfriendly. AND do not say these people don't care about new players, some of them myself included often post in the new player help forum when a new player has a question. And often people try to come up with ideas to improve the new player experience. The majority of good players do realize that a game requires a large player base because they do a lot of gaming, and thus they try to promote it (admittedly some are just skilled {Richard Cameron}). And 3rd person view causes many complex balance issues due to a changed field of vision, though hopefully they did it in such a way as to avoid the many pitfalls.

in conclusion... brawling is back, sniping is still legit without being op, lights are surviving, mediums have been rejuvenated... this patch is a huge success!!!
Brawling is only back because many good players beyond tired of sniping all the time finally have not completely crap SRMs to play around with. Sniping is still OP.

Oh and until this patch I NEVER had played a high alpha sniper (well except a 4 PPC cicada mostly as a joke to see how OP they are). I made a Gauss+ 2 ERPPC + PPC HGN-732 and proceeded to slaughter everything that poked its head into view. It is an extremely OP build. Far more powerful than AC/40 jagger ever was. (oh and sold this mech to make room for a fun not as good one already)

[Sprouticus]

Chavette, on 19 July 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

The simple fact you need citement tells we're not on the same page and have nothing to talk about.


The reason we have more brawling now(because we do have more brawling now, thank god) is because of the SRM buff, not the alpha nerf.

You missed my entire point. Let me explain more directly.

Any one players experience is almost useless. My experience shows that the more abusive boats are somewhat viable but no longer so powerful that they dominate play. Your experience is that they are still quite powerful.

NEITHER ONE OF THOSE OPINIONS IS VALID.

The only real numbers that count are the numbers in the PGI database. The usage for each mech and weapon would be great numbers to have. I wish PGI would give us access to them (although I do understand that they fear a confirmation bias if they release the numbers).


But like many people, I think that even numerical evidence would not convince you. You are going to believe what you want, regardless of evidence to the contrary. You are correct, we have nothing to talk about.

[Corvus Antaka]

Steel Claws, on 19 July 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

I would add combining the LRM 10/15/and 20 combos as well as SRM 4/6 combos to the list for the patch on the 30th and then I think the game would be fairly acceptable. A 30 - 35 point alpha is nothing. You can do that in a Jenner and every medium in the game so I fail to see why people cry about it from Heavies and assaults. The problem wasn't the weapons, it was the ability to boat weapons in larger numbers that 2 and use them with impunity.

Given Pauls post today It looks like every type of gun is being linked to others in it's class and flight time.

games already better than it has ever been. dmg across the board is just fine.

too many assaults on the field is a much bigger issue to even try to talk about gun and pinpoint balance beyond this for the time being. Yes, you can still alpha a variety of different weapons in 1 shot, and against slow mechs this can still pinpoint well. However against fast and mobile pilots this tends to spread damage everywhere, thus promoting more mobility on mechs in general. Again, a good thing.

It may well remain an issue to pinpoint dmg of 2 Pulaser, 2 LLaser, 2 ERPPC on a stationary atlas, but then again, an atlas should be himself trying to spread those shots, and at least with beam time he has better odds than vs a 4-6 ppc pinpoint alpha.

[DYSEQTA]

SkyCake, on 19 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

***snip*** ...Good Job PGI!

+1. It's really starting to feel good. Still a ways to go yet but they are cooking with gas now