419 replies to this topic

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 July 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Basic non-answer. And you still haven't really outlined how you practice it, just talked in very high level generalities.

A little civility would be appreciated. I gave a very specific answer detailing exactly (in two posts no less) why one would use a cap, including hypothetical examples of why one would be motivated to do so. I drew one such example from a common event in many competitive 8-man drops. I've also never said that capping was 'exciting' in and of itself, but a win by the hair-of-the-neck can be. I mostly just stated that capping is a tool... and I get the impression you didn't really follow my discussion points at all. Please, if you don't like a mechanic, by all means continue the crusade, don't be so dismissive of other opinions just because you don't agree with them; I gave you credit for your preferences, a little mutual respect would be nice.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Arrachtas, on 21 July 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

A little civility would be appreciated. I gave a very specific answer detailing exactly (in two posts no less) why one would use a cap, including hypothetical examples of why one would be motivated to do so. I drew one such example from a common event in many competitive 8-man drops. I've also never said that capping was 'exciting' in and of itself, but a win by the hair-of-the-neck can be. I mostly just stated that capping is a tool... and I get the impression you didn't really follow my discussion points at all. Please, if you don't like a mechanic, by all means continue the crusade, don't be so dismissive of other opinions just because you don't agree with them; I gave you credit for your preferences, a little mutual respect would be nice.

Thanks for the discussion.

Not civil with people who play a game in a way that promotes terrible mechanics.

I use capping, it happens. But I sure as hell know it sucks in this game.

It's not fun AT all.

Games are supposed to be fun.

Winning just to earn whatever stupid loyalty points they come up with just makes this game a damn grind.

It was supposed to be a thinking man's shooter. Except no thought goes into anything we do. That's why I don't need to "practice" capping, because it's pretty mindless to know when it's best to do it.

[Novakaine]

Just to be a jack.......
Plain and simple.
And there is always one.

[Galenit]

Viktor Drake, on 21 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Here is the thing. A base rush is not outsmarting your enemy. It is about who gets to the base fastest, no more, no less. Additionally a base cap happens so fast, especially if there are more than one mech sitting on the base that even if a team wants to, it can't make it back to the base to defend it.

You own the base first, you dont need to rush, you dont need to go to your base and dont need to be fast.
If you stay there, no base cap happens and you dont need to make it back to defend.
I promise you, the enemy will come, in the most cases, to you.

Edited by Galenit, 21 July 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[soarra]

Galenit, on 21 July 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

You own the base first, you dont need to rush, you dont need to go to your base and dont need to be fast.
If you stay there, no base cap happens and you dont need to make it back to defend.
I promise you, the enemy will come, in the most cases, to you.

im guessing you never ran into 2 teams that both base camped.. its a boring 15 minutes

[Taemien]

Viktor Drake, on 21 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Here is the thing. A base rush is not outsmarting your enemy. It is about who gets to the base fastest, no more, no less. Additionally a base cap happens so fast, especially if there are more than one mech sitting on the base that even if a team wants to, it can't make it back to the base to defend it. Additionally, leaving people to defend the base is not an option because if you happen to run into the entire enemy team, your toast in a 4 vs 8 or 6 vs 8 situaton. So what are you suppose to do. You manuver and hope that the enemy OR EVEN YOUR OWN DAMN TEAM doesn't rush to base to cap. Also I am not saying that base capping is a bad thing or needs to be removed but by god it needs to be a hell of alot more difficult to do than it is now. It should be hard to capture a base and take a team, not just one or two light mechs base rushing early in the match. There needs to be time for a team to send people back to base to defend. In the end every match should be a slugfest even if one team wins by capping, I mean that is what we are all here for, to engage in a game centered on mech COMBAT right?

Stay back and defend? Thats what I do if I suspect an incoming base cap. In fact one of the most effective strategies in Assault is an 8 man defense. You obliterate any fast movers that come near the base and turn the game into a 8v7, 8v6, or 8v5 right off the bat.

And that is a **** poor excuse, "we're all here for mech combat!" I've tested this. My group has ran behind enemy lines and announced our presence. Telling the enemy that if they do not withdraw from their sniping positions that we would cap their base. They either are always daft and think we're bluffing. Or afraid to fight 2-3 people.

Sometimes we got one or two to come back and fight us. But it was rare.

The fact is, most are here to get into a dedicated sniping position and wish to stay there.

[John Decker]

In an imperfect world ....

The current mechanic is broken, but hey we are playing a Beta, so it's not supposed to be perfect. Yet we already have a lot of protectors of capping because they don't want a change. Ok so if you are happy with the way things are fine, debate away, it's your right. But if you aren't if you feel it's silly to walk to a point to start combat only to have to walk all the way back to your base at 56kph. If you think it's ridiculous that people get into a match just to run to another's base( I mean what the hell is this Mech Walk in the freaking park?). If you think it's ludicrous when you travel all the way to another team's entrenched position and destroy them only to be capped because you don't have any lights left and their remaining light makes it to base, if you think it's messed up when people start capping just to pull one or two of your mechs off so they can jump you with their pre-made, if you feel put off because people here with all kinds of stuff under around and glowing through their name say this is the way it should be..just because we said so, it our plan so quiet down etc..then please please please don't stop pushing for a change in this area..because it sucks..and I'm no sniper point camper..I'm a Brawler, that snipes when he has to.

[John Decker]

Arrachtas, on 21 July 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Capping is only easy against a disorganized team. Capping is very challenging against a team that actually plays defense - as a team should (either passively or actively). Capping is going to be a more-rewarded part of the game, in future, and practicing it as a strategy is worthwhile; figuring out how to position the enemy to gain an advantage and to apply pressure to them by making them think that you will take their base is an intelligent thing to do that transcends the base FPS mentality of "SHOOT ALL THE THINGS". This is an important game mode going forward; it needs to be embraced.

Now, as to your reasons that you list for not like capping - they're very personal:

1. Time it takes to queue
2. C-Bills missed out on (lost?)
3. My stats
4. It isn't fun

Those are all personal reasons. I don't see a minute or two between games as a problem; I do not need to be constantly killing things every waking second to enjoy the game. I also don't see C-Bills as the only thing that matters - I have plenty, and if I am low, can earn more very easily. Regarding stats, just because not every game is an out-right slug-fest does not mean that I cannot test my builds or build an impressive K/D/R. The amount of 'downtime' between games is minimal. Regarding your last point, fun is very subjective; I would posit that it's pretty fun to snatch a victory from the jaws of defeat, regardless of how one achieved it.

Personally, we can agree to disagree. I'm not saying you're wrong in your preferences, but they're YOUR preferences - not everybody's. Most importantly, capping, regardless of whether you or I like it, is still tactically valid and many teams would like to have that option rather than not have it.

I fail to see how a boring ridiculous mechanic like this is ever going to be rewarding as it currently stands , but ok you've said your bit.

[Purlana]

Stop using 700 ton groups and maybe you can stop them from capping? Also people who are concerned with making money usually don't pilot light mechs.

Edited by Purlana, 22 July 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[Farix]

John Decker, on 22 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

In an imperfect world ....

The current mechanic is broken, but hey we are playing a Beta, so it's not supposed to be perfect. Yet we already have a lot of protectors of capping because they don't want a change. Ok so if you are happy with the way things are fine, debate away, it's your right. But if you aren't if you feel it's silly to walk to a point to start combat only to have to walk all the way back to your base at 56kph. If you think it's ridiculous that people get into a match just to run to another's base( I mean what the hell is this Mech Walk in the freaking park?). If you think it's ludicrous when you travel all the way to another team's entrenched position and destroy them only to be capped because you don't have any lights left and their remaining light makes it to base, if you think it's messed up when people start capping just to pull one or two of your mechs off so they can jump you with their pre-made, if you feel put off because people here with all kinds of stuff under around and glowing through their name say this is the way it should be..just because we said so, it our plan so quiet down etc..then please please please don't stop pushing for a change in this area..because it sucks..and I'm no sniper point camper..I'm a Brawler, that snipes when he has to.

Then drop in a medium or light mech yourself instead of a heavy or assault mech. If you are part of a group, drop with a mix of weight classes. If your mech can only do 56kph, change its loadout to use a larger, faster engine. This is the depth of play that base capture introduces. Without it, there would be considerably less depth of play as there would be little incentive to drop in anything other than assault mechs with the biggest guns.

PS. I do, however, believe that the C-bill reward for winning by caps should be restored. Make it at least the equivalent of killing the last two mechs. Then there would be less rage about winning by cap.

Edited by Farix, 22 July 2013 - 04:50 AM.

[CravenMadness]

Be the Change you want to see. ... It took me about a month of play time to realize that folks who play this game don't seem to understand what resource management and base capping actually is. Anyone who's ever played world of warcraft pvp maps, team fortress two, or any number of other player vs player games out there, understands that there are always going to be multiple ways of winning a match.

Took me even less than a month to figure out the a-typical charge paths that the cattle-herds like to follow.

The 'training' and 'practice' that goes into playing a light mech, are the piloting skills that enable the light to get around and through enemy lines without being blown apart at a glance. Cutting sharp corners, learning which areas of the maps favor their movement and profile, quickest routes to points to assist in defenses or assaulting unguarded points.

Base capping to 90% is a favorite tactic of mine while in a light. Not only does it usually bring back enemy team lights to me, thus stopping them from tagging my own base, but it typically ends up castrating the opposition by getting those mechs out of the fight even if I end up dieing.

As for the -how- of practicing a light mech piloting skills? It's called trial and error. Lots of error. But these days I generally make it off the field with about 30-40% of my mech still in tact, I consider that having done work.

[John Decker]

Farix, on 22 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Then drop in a medium or light mech yourself instead of a heavy or assault mech. If you are part of a group, drop with a mix of weight classes. If your mech can only do 56kph, change its loadout to use a larger, faster engine. This is the depth of play that base capture introduces. Without it, there would be considerably less depth of play as there would be little incentive to drop in anything other than assault mechs with the biggest guns.

PS. I do, however, believe that the C-bill reward for winning by caps should be restored. Make it at least the equivalent of killing the last two mechs. Then there would be less rage about winning by cap.

Ive dropped lights as my main mech for months...then I did mediums where I was fairly successful as a Centurion. I'vve worked my way through the 'ranks' as an Assault and now I run an Assault and a Heavy. I don't have the time or resources to have every kind of mech. Good move trying to put the whole thing right back in the face of the OP and anyone supporting it by ignoring the issue completely and telling people to jump through every hoop on the way to stupidity. It doesn't solve the issue. Base capping as it stands is broken. It doesn't provide the proper reward for the time and effort invested. It should take longer or offer better reward. I'd like to see it make some sense. As it is it makes none. When I was a light I didn't employ capping as a main strat. I felt it was too exploitative, I challenged myself to take out heavies mediums and assaults with my light and of course do the spotting, that is where the real challenge lies, where the real pilots roam. Not sure what the thrill or challenge is to capping as a light. I frankly have no respect for pilots that employ that as any kind of a main strategy. As a Warrior, I figure capping is fine if you've beaten the other team otherwise it's just plain cowardice and spite. Call it a team ethic. I am not the only one that posses it. Show some backbone, it's about time someone does if you can't face us, then go play another game.

[Purlana]

John Decker, on 22 July 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Show some backbone, it's about time someone does if you can't face us, then go play another game.

Capping is part of the game. Deal with it. If your scouts are to lazy to RTB, it's not our problem.

Edited by Purlana, 22 July 2013 - 06:33 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Viktor Drake, on 21 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

So what....everyone just cares about win rate? How about damage per match? How about K/D? How about the satisfaction of having a good fun match?

What the Frak does Win rate mean....ZERO. Oh yeah wait, it means you can pilot your mech very fast across the map....hurrah for you!!!

This is especially so since ELO is designed to keep you at a 50/50 win ratio so Winning means NOTHING!!!

win rate means your team wins.

and that is more important than KDR, damage, or anything else.

that's just how the world works

[Kaldor]

They never should have taken the rewards away for winning via cap. It needs to be a viable strategy, and needs to be defended against.

Yes, it irritates me when someone just base races. However, if Im in a medium or light, damn right I will go stop the cap, thats my job. Even if I delay the cap by 30 seconds for the rest of my team to roll in, I did my job. However, if Im in a heavy or assault, my job is to kill. What makes me angry is when bad light pilots dont scout, and worry more about doing damage, than doing their job, which is scouting and being mobile. Same to be said for mediums that think they are assaults, get their a_s shot off, then b_tch about it.

The other part is the matchmaker while PUGging. Herp Derp, solo drop, lets see 5 assaults, 1 light, 2 heavies on one team, 2 assaults, 2 heavies, and 4 lights on the other. Base race is the best option. Unfortunately its PGI's matchmaker trolling us at its best....

[Mystere]

Farix, on 22 July 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

PS. I do, however, believe that the C-bill reward for winning by caps should be restored. Make it at least the equivalent of killing the last two mechs. Then there would be less rage about winning by cap.

Capping used to have bigger rewards. The problem was that many teams just rushed to bases and deliberately avoided fights. Lowering the rewards reduced somewhat the zero-battle games. As such, I think rewards for capping are fine as they are.

But then again, I use a different currency for rewarding caps: tears. I cap for the vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears that it generates.

[Lykaon]

Aeten, on 20 July 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Maybe you are swimming in them, but I certainly am not.

XL 255 Engine: (a staple) 4,165,000 (41? Matches)
Centurion Mech: (entry-level mech) 3-8.5 million (30-85 Matches)
DHS: 1.5 million

To name just a few of the expensive components of MWO. I currently have no Assault mechs (too expensive to buy) and no light mechs (too expensive to equip) it's getting pretty old not being able to make very many mechs because I have no C-Bills even after spending $30 on MC so far.

Should have bought a light mech with a cap accelerator and if possible ECM.with the noob bonus from your first 20 games.

You can then base cap the enemy as quickly as possible for three times as many matches completed in the same time frame.

But I joke.

Honestly base capping as a strong tactic is really limited to circumstances.

Are there multiple fast mechs with cap accelerators on the team?

Is the map not a tiny one?like 50% of them are allowing even slow mechs to respond to base defence.
On larger maps can you get to the enemy cap before your inept team mates all die in the first 3 minutes of a battle? leaving 8 enemy mechs to counter cap you.

Enough of the game plays towards piloting the biggest baddest thing boating with the best front loaded damage alpha strikes that capping is sometimes the only alternative for players like myself who become sick of the same thing game after game.PPC+Gauss snipe fest followed my more of the same.

[Syllogy]

... To win?

[Mystere]

John Decker, on 22 July 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

Show some backbone, it's about time someone does if you can't face us, then go play another game.

I use capping to "divide and conquer" and force the enemy to make a decision: continue your assault or deal with me at your base. Unfortunately for the enemy lights sent back to "deal" with me, I am sometimes not running my lights. Instead, it's either a Pretty Baby armed with 2PPCs and 3 SSRM2s, or a Firebrand with an AC20 and 2 LLs. The lights that go back die really fast.

Also, there are sometimes two of us. Anyone sent back dies even faster.

Finally, the addition of the seismic module made this "trap" even easier as we can tell where our poor victims will be coming from.

Edited by Mystere, 22 July 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[topgun505]

TLDR.

With the current meta being what it is I most certainly cap.

Initially I don't cap with the intent to finish. I do so to put the opposition between a rock and a hard place. They need to split their forces or risk a loss.

But that is one of the jobs of a light is to be a thorn in your side that you can't afford to ignore. If they dont respond, or their entre team is composed of sluggish heavy assault mechs then that's their problem. A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency in my part. Here's a thought. Get out of the titantic-a$$ assault mech and take something with more mobility.

300-400xp for a win is considerably better than 100 for a loss when you are grinding up a mech. Especially when the pugs on your team fold instantly like a bunch of rusty lawn furniture.

Cap is not the only way to win. But you can't discount it either.