341 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

It has NOTHING to do with groups or not.

Anyone can solo-drop with the right mech and "new players get to experience MWO-style fights for only 10 seconds once battle starts." You are talking about a game-balance issue, not a "premade vs pug" 'issue'.

Stop blaming people who group, for PGI's lack of being able to properly, and efficiently, balance this game.


I understand where you're trying to go with this, but they shouldn't do it.

There's should be as much 'fog of war' in this game as we can put in it. No one should know who is grouped on the "other side". Similar to how you can't see what mechs your opponents are driving, initially, this would be too much info.

The only place I would even consider supporting this idea, would be for the end-game screen. Definitely at no point prior.

Edit: Spelling.

Correct because not being dumb and walking in to 8 Mechs by your lonesome expecting your team to save you is unreasonable.

I watch in drops where games start out coordinated. Then the PUGs start getting that OMG I HAVEN'T SHOT NYTING cept Lugh's back since the beginning of the game....I better shamble over here and ZORCH...8 Mechs obliterate him.

Pug 2 Oh Wow the enemy team is over there, let me see what happens if I ZORCH and he dies too...

Pug 3 and Pug 4 think Lets go to the opposing team's base by our lonesome and then they die.

The 4 man team is now facing off v 8 barely damaged mechs.

Massive fighting ensues. The 4 man may even kill 4 or more of the enemy using focus fire, but that requires the 8 men on the other side to be massively overconfident.

Putting in a Solo Only queue will do the above, only the 4 solo guys that stuck together will be left facing the 8 opposing guys that stuck together.

[Tsenado]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc?

No. The reason why the playerbase is, and has been shrinking, is because of all of the stupid crap that PGI has done over the last 10 months or so.

It's a mixture of both, I am not saying you are, but there are definitely elite players out there likes the idea of roflstomp on players thats totally not in the same ELO as they are, I have seen it more then often, but we all have no data to back it up thanks to the "behind the scene" work.

so yes, like everything is life, everything happens like a butterfly effect.

[PropagandaWar]

Lugh, on 29 July 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Correct because not being dumb and walking in to 8 Mechs by your lonesome expecting your team to save you is unreasonable.

I watch in drops where games start out coordinated. Then the PUGs start getting that OMG I HAVEN'T SHOT NYTING cept Lugh's back since the beginning of the game....I better shamble over here and ZORCH...8 Mechs obliterate him.

Pug 2 Oh Wow the enemy team is over there, let me see what happens if I ZORCH and he dies too...

Pug 3 and Pug 4 think Lets go to the opposing team's base by our lonesome and then they die.

The 4 man team is now facing off v 8 barely damaged mechs.

Massive fighting ensues. The 4 man may even kill 4 or more of the enemy using focus fire, but that requires the 8 men on the other side to be massively overconfident.

Putting in a Solo Only queue will do the above, only the 4 solo guys that stuck together will be left facing the 8 opposing guys that stuck together.

Hey now that's not fair when I turn a corner on 8 mechs and get blasted to where all thats left is a mecha toe in one FF salvo thats their fault for being a premade lol. Sheesh more than once I've gotten a little to ahead or behind of the group only to be "Thwapped, Zzzzzt, BAP, Dakka, Fwoosh, BOOMED". Gotta be a premades fault.

[No Guts No Glory]

I'll bring this up once again:

No Guts No Glory, on 28 July 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

All PGI has to do is have MM force a similar number of grouped players onto each team with groups being indicated in the scoreboard. They can then remove group size restriction. Doesn't split the player base so no terrible queue times. Players can drop with any number of friends. There is no valid argument anyone can make against this.

Is there any reason anyone wouldn't want this?

[Kunae]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 29 July 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

And how would a new player know that any of those things have changed?
You are talking strictly about player retention, but there is always going to be player churn. Not only is it loosing existing player base for the reason you mention, but it is not attracting new players, because the frustration level is so high for new players.

And that frustration level has nothing to do with the community. PGI has designed themselves into this mess, and only they can fix it.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Since it's been indicated that groups are primarily playing the game. But no indicator is to which size whether it be 2-3-or 4 man groups. How exactly is the MM supposed to match teams up without using single players or taking a longer times to match those teams up? If it can't use SP's to fill those holes than that time frame could be extraordinarily long.

Why can't those single players notice who are running in a group and simply stick with those people (especially if in the same lance)? If you can't talk to them, then take a few seconds to watch what direction they go in? If they split up, then look at who has the higher armor/damage percentage and go with them, unless of course they're diving into an 8 man group and nothing else is around them. You can also use your Tab button to see who has more mechs still alive and go by that..

basically, use your own tactics to keep yourself alive as much as possible.

[XphR]

Cathy, on 29 July 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

lol the reason I can't stand ts/viop

if its going to be used use it clearly concisely for help and warnings not for screaming into

I should have clarified, it was a private Skype to a mixed company of my mercs and an allied company that have been working together from somewhere around openb and the random assortment of people we have each gathered along the way(some have signed on to one side or the other{some have reserved open pilot status until cw is a bit more clear}).

We play a more reserved mic when needed (public rooms {until the general consensus is madness}). However for the most part in the closed environment we talk about our day, catch up on life, get rude, taunt one another and have a hell of a good time. Each and every one of us knows you can always ask for a 'tone down' or alert us to possible young ears/other sensitivities.

The particular instance however started with the usual, me calling out over v-com names I possibly recognize from the forums or other noted memorable players from previous encounters(some of our best open pilots Ive met when they took a respectable last stand in a hopeless situation and died like a champion {others beat me to a pulp and accepted my complements respectfully}).

Followed by the team doing the same generally for pilots of mention(either complimentary or marks of death{some people hold grudges lol}). This is followed by structuring our lance to co-operate with the others (how are they slotted, are they attempting organization, where are they optimally attempting to move) sometimes we just read and watch for ques, other times we offer up a quick description of our force and request a starting command.

The yelling and screaming and fiery death was all part of the fun and camaraderie, at any time anyone in the group could have requested silence for organization(everyone was to into the moment enjoying the game we throw way to much money at). The match was all but over and that particular moment, nothing was to be done but enjoy the climactic end that was swiftly approaching..

Mind you in global chat we have likely passed out a myriad of call outs, inane greetings, deep space babbles, friendly threats and salutations or responses to the same from the opposition. Mind you not always humble or even civil at times.. its all in good fun and we are always able to reel it back in(or cut it loose if need be).

^hey look, I almost forgot what i was talking about...

[Master Q]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

And that frustration level has nothing to do with the community. PGI has designed themselves into this mess, and only they can fix it.

When certain players *ahem* think that NOT telling the other team "Good Game" after a match, not acknowledging their effort, basically dismissing them until they genuflect deep enough is somehow "courteous", your claim that frustration level has nothing to do with certain toxic players in the community seems rather false.

[Kunae]

Tsenado, on 29 July 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

It's a mixture of both, I am not saying you are, but there are definitely elite players out there likes the idea of roflstomp on players thats totally not in the same ELO as they are, I have seen it more then often, but we all have no data to back it up thanks to the "behind the scene" work.

so yes, like everything is life, everything happens like a butterfly effect.

The number of people, you describe, is very low.

The perception is magnified, though, by the fact that most groups, and experienced solo players. dropping need to constantly be compensating for the 4+ total window-lickers who always seem to be thrown onto the same team. This means that they are needing to always be trying to compensate for them, and at a simplest level, that's unfortunately using them as meat-shields.

I am not talking about people in trial mechs, although the number of those, recently due to the fubar Elo system they have in place, has gone up. I am referring to people in customized mechs who are still playing with arm-lock, throttle-decay, full 3x zoom on their LRM boat that has no backup weapons, and can't figure out you have to hold a lock until the missiles hit, or that you need a lock at all.

[Mystere]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Just to refresh your memory, you said:

This implicitly blames the "premade boogey-man" for the new player's "not so fun" experience. Otherwise, what is it that you are claiming that harms their experience, justifying the need for this "panacea" queue?

Do you get it now?

I could have said "newbie-only" queue instead. But, there is really no reliable way of measuring a person's inexperience with the game (i.e. people have vastly different rates of learning).

I also believe that even the mere impression that groups are stomping people in the regular queue (i.e. premade boogeyman) is already deterring players, especially via word-of-mouth. A solo-only queue eliminates the said boogeyman.

[Kunae]

Master Q, on 29 July 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

When certain players *ahem* think that NOT telling the other team "Good Game" after a match, not acknowledging their effort, basically dismissing them until they genuflect deep enough is somehow "courteous", your claim that frustration level has nothing to do with certain toxic players in the community seems rather false.

If you don't comprehend why saying "GG" as the winners of a 8-0 stomp, is a stupid, rude, and asinine thing to do, then you're an even greater fool that I thought you were, previously.

[Kunae]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I could have said "newbie-only" queue instead. But, there is really no reliable way of measuring a person's inexperience with the game (i.e. people have vastly different rates of learning).

I also believe that even the mere impression that groups are stomping people in the regular queue (i.e. premade boogeyman) is already deterring players, especially via word-of-mouth. A solo-only queue eliminates the said boogeyman.

Yes, but we need to look at the root cause. When certain people talk about a "toxic community", what they really should be doing is looking at themselves when they are poisoning new players with all these baseless QQ's about the "evil premades!!QQ".

Toxic community accusers, need to look in the mirror, methinks.

I don't think that PGI should create a solo-only queue, just to "address" an imaginary "problem". I think it dramatically hurts this game, by showing that you can get them to do anything, all you need to do is whine loud enough about some other "unicorn-fairie humping boogeyman", to get your way.

[ZonbiBadger]

Erghiez06, on 27 July 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

tl:dr - (nutshell) Premades can render the game un-fun for others, and the state of communication in Pug games is too slow to give even a remote chance of countering a well organized premade.


I understand that this is a team based game, and that it is currently in Beta, but this is just ridiculous. Now I can't argue the effectiveness of such a tactic, or the possible fun. I have to be honest with myself and submit to the idea that I would most likely have enjoyed myself if I was on the other side of the fence, but I'd also have to be aware of how unbalanced and unfair this is.

This isn't as much a rant, or tantrum as it is a question of balance and concern for the current state of the game. Take for a moment the inability for our group to coordinate our efforts due to a lack of immediate communication options aside from third party software or services, which would of course require people to submit to the same unbalanced tactic. I Pug 99% of the games that I play. I've only played a handful of games with members found via the popular Teamspeak server advertised on these forums. It works, but it does take some time to find a group willing to knowingly take on a newer player. I've tried and I usually hear talk of things such as 'ELO' and whatnot. As a new player I had to look up what ELO was and why it was a concern, and of course once I understood what it was I couldn't argue.

I have to agree with alot of posters that due to the current state of the game premade groups should only be matched with other premades until there is a better form of in-game communication or the ability to choose your Mech while the game start is pending. Thats just me, but I find this sort of issue gamebreaking as it makes it un-fun and not playable at times.

You should be happy, you guys got two enemies.

[MaddMaxx]

Mystere, on 29 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Frankly, I couldn't care less about still-clueless "founders" or "hero" wannabes. But, we do have a problem where new players get to experience MWO-style fights for only 10 seconds once battle starts. Barring any extreme masochists, that jusn't fun for anyone.

A solo-only queue can help mitigate that "not so fun" experience. And insulting anyone that wants to be in such a queue (like the bunny reference I responded to) just isn't helping at all. Some of the 1337 (real or imagined ) here should really dial things down.

How do you keep the Smurfs out? Even a Trial Mech piloted by a Smurf(s), who really have over 2K + games each played, would still ruin the experience for the truly new.

Smurfing is allowed, thus Solo queues will never function as many envision, sadly.

[MaddMaxx]

Namais, on 29 July 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

The forced tutorial in Dota2 is a blindingly good option. Obviously it can't stop someone committed but I'll bet it smashes the people who would have done so just because.

Might as well just have NEW players do a "nice, concise, short tutorial", then force them to play 100 Matches before they can even select Assault or Conquest. A forced 100 matches should remove that Newb shine that the Leet's dislike so much, right? (Holy Smokes Batman)

[Tsenado]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

The number of people, you describe, is very low.

The perception is magnified, though, by the fact that most groups, and experienced solo players. dropping need to constantly be compensating for the 4+ total window-lickers who always seem to be thrown onto the same team. This means that they are needing to always be trying to compensate for them, and at a simplest level, that's unfortunately using them as meat-shields.

I am not talking about people in trial mechs, although the number of those, recently due to the fubar Elo system they have in place, has gone up. I am referring to people in customized mechs who are still playing with arm-lock, throttle-decay, full 3x zoom on their LRM boat that has no backup weapons, and can't figure out you have to hold a lock until the missiles hit, or that you need a lock at all.

it's definitely more then you think. I solo queue, like the all the average joes (I am one myself) out there I am in the middle of the pack and see all ranks of ELO (and surprising see more higher ELO queues then I expected, average about 1/5 of my games are with higher ELO queue).

I know you play with elites, mostly in premades, run into your team(s) a few times. I am sure you have seen all the elite players by now, you know who they are. When these elite teams queue and don't see any names they know, believe me they will enjoy it cause they are queued in lower ELO group for a roflstomp, who wouldn't? none of them would make a big deal about it cause it's at their advantage.

Honestly nothing wrong with just premade queues, 6v6 to 8v8 premade only doesn't affect premade games. And it's your choice to be premade, no choice for the solo queues.

[Mystere]

MaddMaxx, on 29 July 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

How do you keep the Smurfs out?

You can't. Just make sure they can't sych-drop. And who knows, smurf vs. smurf fights might even be a blast.

[Master Q]

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

If you don't comprehend why saying "GG" as the winners of a 8-0 stomp, is a stupid, rude, and asinine thing to do, then you're an even greater fool that I thought you were, previously.

If you can't comprehend basic courtesy, it's probably too late to teach you now.

Telling someone "thanks for coming out, thanks for playing" is never rude. No matter WHAT sport or what the game result was.

[Mystere]

MaddMaxx, on 29 July 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Might as well just have NEW players do a "nice, concise, short tutorial", then force them to play 100 Matches before they can even select Assault or Conquest. A forced 100 matches should remove that Newb shine that the Leet's dislike so much, right? (Holy Smokes Batman)

That wouldn't work for people who want to get into the real action asap. So forcing people is probably not a good idea.

[Kunae]

Tsenado, on 29 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

it's definitely more then you think. I solo queue, like the all the average joes (I am one myself) out there I am in the middle of the pack and see all ranks of ELO (and surprising see more higher ELO queues then I expected, average about 1/5 of my games are with higher ELO queue).

I know you play with elites, mostly in premades, run into your team(s) a few times. I am sure you have seen all the elite players by now, you know who they are. When these elite teams queue and don't see any names they know, believe me they will enjoy it cause they are queued in lower ELO group for a roflstomp, who wouldn't? none of them would make a big deal about it cause it's at their advantage.

Honestly nothing wrong with just premade queues, 6v6 to 8v8 premade only doesn't affect premade games. And it's your choice to be premade, no choice for the solo queues.

I do not "run mostly in premades". I am typically solo, 90% of the time.

Most people I know would prefer to have at least semi-competent team-mates, and opponents. And no, the crap-tastic "8-man" abomination that PGI put in last year is not even close to a solution.

I can't count the number of times, when as a solo jenner, I've gone and disrupted the enemy LRM's/snipers, have half the enemy team chasing me, and the other half shooting at me for 3 minutes... and I look up and I'm the only one left alive, because my team-mates are idiots. It happens often enough that I wonder if PGI has lied to us, and Elo tries to balance a side to some magic number, pooling skilled players with mouth-breathers, as some have conjectured, in the past.

Master Q, on 29 July 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

If you can't comprehend basic courtesy, it's probably too late to teach you now.

Telling someone "thanks for coming out, thanks for playing" is never rude. No matter WHAT sport or what the game result was.

Ok. Thanks for confirming that you're a complete loon.