87 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Mak54291, on 28 July 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

I just bought a cicada with two machine guns.

Your telling me that shooting for 15 second like mad on a target will only give 30 of damage?

This make the machine gun pretty useless in my book.

I'd like to know what others players think about that. Other players that know a lot about the balance of this game.

After the Mgun buff I had the opportunity to sit all alone behind an AFK stalker (I forget which variant it was at the time but lets assume default rear torso armor) in my spider and just focus 4 Mguns right on a single body panel. It took about 42 seconds to eat the armor then like the final hours of the titanic, he came back in a panic and went down fast. Let your buddies do the heavy lifting. Mguns are there to cause chaos. Also.... DAKKA

Edited by lockwoodx, 29 July 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[Amsro]

Monlex, on 29 July 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

After i saw this post i decided the next mech is going to be a JM6-DD, now i can tell you its not useless, its a blast.

I agree with the entertainment value, very fun and mean sound.

Unfortunately MG suck, try this mech out see if you have as much "fun" with 1 weapon.

[Monlex]

Amsro, on 29 July 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

I agree with the entertainment value, very fun and mean sound.

Unfortunately MG suck, try this mech out see if you have as much "fun" with 1 weapon.

Mech'	Matches Played	Wins	Losses	Ratio	Kills	Deaths	Ratio	Damage Done	XP Earned	Time Played
JAGERMECH JM6-DD	33	20	13	1.54	58	17	3.41	15,545	35,310	03:16:21

Im doing quite fine and sure the MG are not the killers they are specific for a task, get lots of crits and destroy anything in that section.

Edited by Monlex, 29 July 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Rippthrough]

jeffsw6, on 28 July 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I doubt that.

Drop into a game with a friend (since Testing Grounds is broken) and blast away at his legs to test. You'll find that the 2 MGs a Raven can carry take a lot longer than you realize to burn through just 40 armor. Why? First of all, obviously your two MGs are only doing about 1.4 DPS combined (because the MG's RoF isn't really 10/sec; it's been bugged forever.) Second a lot of your shots will miss a leg, even an Atlas's leg.

Now try legging a Commando or Spider with MGs. Let me know how that goes.

I fought a jenner and a raven alone, at the same time, yesterday in my 5K with machine guns, I legged them both.
This is not a post saying machine guns are good, they're not, they're just about usable if you're a maniacal Dakka fan at the minute, but not good.

Just don't underestimate just how many terribly bad light pilots there are out there. Too long with lag shield and no collisions.

Edited by Rippthrough, 29 July 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[stjobe]

Rippthrough, on 29 July 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Just don't underestimate just how many terribly bad light pilots there are out there.

Fixed that for you. It's not restricted to light pilots by any means.

[Tsenado]

codynyc, on 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

the last thing we need is a MG bump in damage... 6mg jager anyone... The need to have the damage reduced if any thing.

Here we go again, another request to nerf the god-oh-mighty Jagger doing damage at super close range. Risk vs Reward doesn't exist in the real world or it is a new thing to people around here?

Edited by Tsenado, 29 July 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[Rippthrough]

Yeah, think of the terror of that slow, massive target when it finally gets within 120m of you and still doesn't do as much damage as a jenner with 6ML's.

[Koniving]

Honestly and this is just going by math... Unless they give engines a 45 or more health... when they turn on crit damage to actuators, engines, and gyros, MGs will become the most overpowered weapon in MWO's history, and that was back with the 0.8 damage per second.

Engine was last reported to have 15 Crit health (in one of the earliest ATDs).
Actuators in super early closed beta had unknown (to me) crit health, but I remember having an arm actuator or a leg actuator taken out. It sucked balls.

Specifically, if a lower arm actuator was taken out your arm weapon would not follow the "o" reticle left and right. There was also no warning to this, so a lot of noise came about it being a bug. If an upper arm actuator was taken out, the arm could not aim up and down. This affected only one side of your mech; the one where it was damaged.

If a leg actuator was taken out, you'd start "yawing" left or right while moving forward. Again, many complaints about this being a bug. Do not know if it mattered which actuator.

If the Gyro -- never enabled -- is damaged or taken out, you'd have a hard if not impossible time maintaining your footing when enemy or friendly mechs touched you. In past games like MW3, if your gyro was damaged you'd fall over just by being hit by an AC. "Gyro overload!"

Now the engine? Instant death. 15 health. Never enabled.

The AC/20 in an Atlas has 18 health. Many people I've shot with just 2 MGs from this build cried about INSTANTLY losing their AC/20 and I swear one guy actually said "Man they need to rebalance the crit damage on those MGs I lost my AC/20 the moment I lost my armor." -- Edited Note: This can be the result of 6 small lasers doing crit damage in addition to 2 MGs.

(The build in action)

Imagine what will happen with just 2 MGs hammering in on your engine?

-- but since I'm here, I honestly think engine destruction (as opposed to CT destruction) should cause a rupture in the engine before it can safely shut down, causing failure in containment and erupting in an explosion.

Edited by Koniving, 29 July 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[stjobe]

Koniving, on 29 July 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

[snip]

Last I calculated it (when it was put in-game), the MGs did 5.1 DPS to internal components. So yes, you're absolutely right they'll be overpowered - which is one of the reasons I've been saying over and over and over that this "crit weapon" idea is a mistake. There never was a "crit weapon" in TT, we don't need a "crit weapon" in MWO, and as is evident, it's hell on earth trying to balance it.

Just make the MG a regular damage dealer like every other weapon, like it should be. Don't try to get fancy with "crit weapons" - every weapon is a "crit weapon"! They ALL have a chance to crit when firing on internals, the MG just has a bit higher chance to do so, and a damage bonus that you'll have to remove once you can kill a 'mech by critting out the engine.

Edited by stjobe, 29 July 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Shufflemuffin5]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Only because those people are to stupid to realize it's other weapons doing all the damage. Being hit by literally any other weapon in the game, except Flamers, would have more effect.


I call B.S.. To do that damage would require you to hold on target for nearly 3.5 minutes at a range of 90m or less (the range hadn't been bumped, yet) while your team apparently wasn't doing much of anything to distract your targets. Even allowing for sometimes hitting multiple mechs with the Flamers or the possibility that crit damage is being added to the total, I'm not buying it. Especially since there wouldn't have been all that much chance at crit damage with the poor amount of damage your team did (as in not many holes in the enemy armor).

That is acutally totally believable... I wish i could post a screenie (im at work at the moment >.> lol) but heck just last night in my 6MG 2 LPL Jager i had a score sheet of 5 kills 2 assists 1005 dmg in a 4.5 minute fight (first 2 mins was just running/positioning). Lets just say for math purposes that i was fighting every second (which i wasnt) for 2.5 minutes (150 seconds) and lets just say i had 100% accuracy at optimal weapon range (which i didnt, i had my right torso cored and 1 of the LPLs destroyed about 1/2 way through the match) with my LPLs (21.2 dmg every 3.75 seconds).

150/3.75*21.2=848

So under PERFECT circumstances i did 848 dmg with my LPLs (which i didnt) and 1005-848=157 dmg with my machine guns.

Now what the damage breakdown probably looked alot more like was:

21.2 dmg every ~4 seconds (target switching/heat management) with my LPLs for 75 seconds= 397.5 dmg
10.6 dmg every ~4 seonds (target switching/heat management) with my single LPL for 75 seconds= 198.75 dmg
397.5+198.75= 596.25 dmg with my LPLs
1005-596.25= 408.75 dmg with my machine guns over the course of the match
408.75/6= 68.125 dmg per machine gun over the coarse of 150 seconds.

So while yea sure 68 dmg for 1 machine gun over 150 seconds isnt anything to write home about, when you have 6 of them (for a total of 9 tons if you count ammo) pumping out 2.725 dmg per second in a real battle scenario (1 Gauss + ammo = about 18 tons have a MAX dps of 3.75 in perfect conditions).

Out of a total of 112 match on my DD ~75 of them have been with this build/ or swap the LPLs for ERPPCs and he is sporting a decent 3.87 k/d ratio. What does this all mean? Nothing really... because machines gun are still pretty underwhelming when you cant eqiup 6 of them and/or being with 150m of your target. But they can be useful and the 6mg Jager is actually a decent build.

[Amsro]

stjobe, on 29 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Last I calculated it (when it was put in-game), the MGs did 5.1 DPS to internal components. So yes, you're absolutely right they'll be overpowered - which is one of the reasons I've been saying over and over and over that this "crit weapon" idea is a mistake. There never was a "crit weapon" in TT, we don't need a "crit weapon" in MWO, and as is evident, it's hell on earth trying to balance it.

Just make the MG a regular damage dealer like every other weapon, like it should be. Don't try to get fancy with "crit weapons" - every weapon is a "crit weapon"! They ALL have a chance to crit when firing on internals, the MG just has a bit higher chance to do so, and a damage bonus that you'll have to remove once you can kill a 'mech by critting out the engine.

This is the exact way machine guns need to be fixed, reduce cone of fire, increase damage, remove crit bonus damage. ?

Make it a real ballistic!!!

[Joseph Mallan]

Mak54291, on 28 July 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

I just bought a cicada with two machine guns.

Your telling me that shooting for 15 second like mad on a target will only give 30 of damage?

This make the machine gun pretty useless in my book.

I'd like to know what others players think about that. Other players that know a lot about the balance of this game.

15 seconds or 1.5 turns you are doing way to much damage!

Sorry, but you are firing one of the smallest weapon in the game. Can a 2 SRM2 fire 4 times in 15 seconds? I honestly don't know, I don't use weapons this small.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 July 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Rippthrough]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 July 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Can a 2 SRM2 fire 4 times in 15 seconds?

Just over actually.
And even with the streak nerf, SRM2's still suck. Even though they do that damage at more range, and it's front loaded.

Edited by Rippthrough, 29 July 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rippthrough, on 29 July 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Just over actually.
And even with the streak nerf, SRM2's still suck. Even though they do that damage at more range, and it's front loaded.

Then MGs are doing just fine. What are we asking a 0.5 ton weapon to be? Dangerous?They are filler guns not to be counted on unless boated.

[General Taskeen]

The fallacy of the MG is in how it was programmed.

The MG is supposed to be a small laser equivalent in ballistic form, with almost similar range and damage profile.

The MW3 MG was the perfect iteration of the Battletech "Machine Gun" and anybody that says otherwise were probably mad because they got killed from a game where excessive customization and boating existed, more so than MW4 or MWO.

Here is what 2 MG's are supposed to do in Battle Tech



Destroy Armor and Mechs just as effectively as grouped small energy weapons at extreme short range.

If Small Lasers are considered "filler" weapons as well, then why are they not nerfed into the ground when they do WAY more damage than a similar ton weapon? There is no need for this huge discrepancy.

The answer is nobody cries for the small laser, because it is good and balanced for its damage profile.

Keeping the MG in its current format ruins the effectiveness and competitiveness of Mechs that need small ballistic weapons as primary weapons, not as "fillers", or useless tickler "crit seekers."

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 July 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[jeffsw6]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 July 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Then MGs are doing just fine. What are we asking a 0.5 ton weapon to be? Dangerous?They are filler guns not to be counted on unless boated.

I'm asking for Spider players to not be forced to play the SDR-5K with total trash weapons so they can master spiders.

If there was a fourth Spider variant that did not suck, no one would care about Machine Guns. This is why no one cares about Flamers, and why the SDR-5K is always used as an example mech which is crippled by crap armament choices, instead of the CDA-3C -- because there are four non-hero Cicadas and you aren't forced to play CDA-3C.

What I would like is for the MG to be at least as effective as a Small Laser. Today, it is not even close.

[General Taskeen]

jeffsw6, on 29 July 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

This is why no one cares about Flamers

Well to be fair people do care about Flamers, since they are hardly used. There are definitely those of us that want to see the variety of weapons in game increased by buffing or overhauling the mechanics of the "lackluster" weapon types. Flamer issues are just brought up less, since they are an energy weapon, and thus can be replaced easier than an MG on a Light ballistic mech, as you mentioned, that must rely on an MG to do its "primary" damage.

Edited by General Taskeen, 29 July 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[Sug]

soarra, on 28 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

they are used for crit seeking once the armor is gone

Which is useless.

[MaxStr]

They aren't useless, they are just used less, because they suck. Just like flamers they need a range increase to become relevant. I am actually against increasing their damage, I think flamers should cause more heat and MGs should have greater crit rate so that we have some more interesting weapons in our arsenal.

General Taskeen, on 29 July 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

The fallacy of the MG is in how it was programmed.

The MG is supposed to be a small laser equivalent in ballistic form, with almost similar range and damage profile.

It's actually even worse than you think. Small Laser and MG both weight .5t yes, but Small Lasers can fire infinitely while a MG needs at least an extra ton of ammo to fire at all, making it weigh 3x as much and take up twice as many critical slots.

Edited by MaxKarnage, 29 July 2013 - 03:20 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

jeffsw6, on 29 July 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

I'm asking for Spider players to not be forced to play the SDR-5K with total trash weapons so they can master spiders.

If there was a fourth Spider variant that did not suck, no one would care about Machine Guns. This is why no one cares about Flamers, and why the SDR-5K is always used as an example mech which is crippled by crap armament choices, instead of the CDA-3C -- because there are four non-hero Cicadas and you aren't forced to play CDA-3C.

What I would like is for the MG to be at least as effective as a Small Laser. Today, it is not even close.

I do understand your complaint. It would also allow us to actually be able to master Builds like a Thunderhawk which only has one MWO usable build IIRC.

I don't see having to pilot a Kurita Build to master a Davion's Atlas!

If it is equal to an SRM2 in damage, then it is almost ready to be called perfectly balanced.