342 replies to this topic

[That Guy]

CN9-A, CDA-3C

The good:
Not OP. dosnt break the game. the fact that so many people are complaining that 3PV is not good is its self a good thing.
I liked that radar was removed
I liked that there is that parallax effect with the aiming reticule+reticule bounce
shooting is harder+ no arm movement making 1pv still better
I like to look at my mech and its fancy colors
I liked that the little drone has a light on it, making long range detection easy

Bad
Alot of dev time that may have been better suited to other things...
I can look over and around obstacles
a very wide FOV. however, i do have a custom FOV so it seems that it also makes the 3PV wider as well. I did not get a chance to mess with my FOV settings before the sever went down.

Edited by That Guy, 01 August 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Ahem. Why is the HUD limited in 3PV when 3PV has previously been stated to not be allowed in the same games as 1PV? 3PV doesn't need a disadvantage because either everyone is in 3PV, or everyone is in 1PV. At least, that's what we were told when it was revealed that 3PV was in the works.

Aiming is made much more difficult.
Missiles that require a lock are near impossible to use without line of sight, as you need to aim nowhere near an enemy in order to gain a lock, and where you have to aim is definitely not clear.

This is most definitely not going to help new players. A lot of mechs can't even see their legs in 3PV, so there goes that theory. It's just going to further break immersion, and be a waste of effort that could have been spent on fixing the game. It's not going to be overpowered; it's just going to be a waste of effort.

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
• CDA-3C, AS7-D, CPLT-C1, JR7-F

• What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?
  
• Removed. Stop wasting effort that could be used to actually improve the game.

• Any additional comments or concerns.
  
• If you really want to sell this as making it easier for new players, pull the camera back so that you can actually see the legs on all mechs (or set the default FoV to something more reasonable), make it so the reticle given in 3PV can be used to lock on to mechs that are being spotted, and don't take away their minimap (which is actually a better tool for seeing the orientation of their mech than the current 3PV is). Also, don't force the reticle to bob up and down as the mech walks, it's unnecessary, and makes no sense; the drone is not fixed to the mech with a rigid tether.
  
• Now, if you want to go the other way, and make 3PV an advanced tool, make it equipment; maybe 1.5 tons and 2 crits, remove the crosshairs entirely (in fact, make it impossible for the 3PV player to achieve a lock at all), and allow the drone to spot targets. This allows scouts to identify and mark enemies without having to have line-of-sight with their actual mech, which invariably leads to the scout's death, since everyone has ERPPCs, and ERPPCs vastly out-range sensors.
  
• Bonus points if this drone is destructible, and has ammo associated with it, so it requires a significant investment, can be destroyed several times before becoming dead weight, and is not a simple passive IW device like BAP/ECM. Of course, this means that the equipment itself would be lighter/smaller, as it would require at least 1Ton/1Crit of ammo.

[Modo44]

Tested using: Highlander, Jenner, Catapult.

As stated by others, the situational awareness advantage is quite big. You see behind and around obstacles with ease, and the mech's torso twist range (plus obviously the cockpit layout itself) becomes irrelevant for spotting purposes. There are some aiming issues. If they get "fixed" as "bugs", that will make the 1st person view a novelty thing to try once, and never again.

Suggestions: remove the reticule jumps, make the vantage point higher while poiting the camera at the ground (so that it actually reduces the viewing distance forward), make it Training Grounds-only or very easy to disable mid-battle.

Edited by Modo44, 01 August 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[uebersoldat]

If the whole concept for this thing is vanity and/or training new users with orientation then here is what needs to happen IMO:

- Add post-match cam to fly around the map or follow in replay mode
- Only allow 3PV in training grounds

Respectively. I also love the idea of a 3D holo of the 'mech's movements in-cockpit.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?

Centurion, Catapult.

• What improvements would you like to see with 3rd person view?

-Clear the HUD even more, maybe.
-Make reticule less laggy.
-Let players actually see their mechs' legs, as they have no map to be aware of their legs' positioning.

• Any additional comments or concerns.

The mode felt useless, I couldn't stand being in 3pv for more than 20 seconds at once. Doesn't feel practical at all, which is nice. But I guess it's mainly because of the laggy and snappy crosshair, that probably wasn't conceived this way.
It is also nice to see the drone lights waaay in a distance, it helps) Anyway, it's ok with 3pv as long as it is not going to be practical for fighting.
But for scout mechs it is clearly advantageous right now.

[Moriquendi86]

ATM I think that 3pv is inferior to 1pv. No minimap is huuge disadvantage especially considering seismic, camera and reticule movement up and down is annoying and obnoxious. Being able to move arms separately from torso like in 1pv would also be appreciated.

I understand you did your best to not make it OP but you went a little overboard with it. Still I appreciate the effort.

[AntharPrime]

Please comment below with the following:

Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
Atlas, Jenner and Catapault.

What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?

I would not like to see this implemented, that would be an improvement.

Any additional comments or concerns.

Technical issues, the screen shake that you introduced on a previous patch is amplified in 3PV. Particularly in lights.

I didn't notice the camera until it was mentioned in the NGNG livestream.

3PV does give a significant tactical advantage. You can see over obstacles and around corners with the camera as it increases you FOV and puts your vision in a higher position. It can be manipulated to get a better viewing angle from around corners and behind obstacles just by manipulating your torso. Let me explain: if you are behind an obstacle you can see a bit over it already in 3PV as pointed out by others but if you look down with your mech you can raise the camera since it is sitting on the arm of an axis, thus giving you an even better view of what's over that hill or in the valley. This can be used also for looking around corners by turning left or right and looking down to peek without so much as exposing an antenna on your mech. I used this to great effect in my light to out cap a team and they couldn't even find me as I would be able to tell exactly where they were as I approached corners and used this info to avoid them completely.

[Kell Morgan]

3pv is useless I Will never use it

Ran atlas's

1. The drone behind the mech HAS to go! You can see enemy mechs using 3PV all the way across the map. You can shoot them based on the positioning of that drone and you can tell ALOT more about where they are going.

2. Arm lock doesn't work my arms where moving some still from my torso! Not nearly as much as if arm lock was off but still bad enough that if I shoot arm and torso mounted weapons together they don't even hit the same spot!

3. Mini map should not be taken away, It makes seismic useless and theres not point to not have it.

4. given the position of the camera it does not give a significant tactical advantage. yea you can see a little over a hill but you know what anyone with ANY situation awareness would see that anyways. Also I would rather have my sensors tell me where enemy is.

5. yea its nice to see your paint job get blown to bits but... that's the only real advantage to it! I believe they went too far in trying to make it "even grounds" with 1PV if they want to fix it a little more make the camera a little tighter then there will be practically no advantage at all.

[Mr Friday]

I was in the Victor-9S, mainly because I've never played Victors and thought it would be a good test on how easily I could pick up aiming.

I honestly think that the camera for the Victor needs to be moved out a little more. I could barely see the top of my hips when looking forwards, although the whole 'wider perspective' of 3PV probably negates the need to see the legs.

I though the aiming was sluggish. It wasn't laggy, just slow. I had to raise the DPS on my mouse to feel the same sort of aiming speed I had in 1PV. Also the crosshair notably jumped about when moved across objects different distances away. Probably needs a bit of fine tuning there.

[Brut4ce]

Hi all!
Just got out of the public test and here's my observations;
3rd PV as it stands, does not give much of a tactical advantage IMO. It helps a lot while using light fast mechs as it provides more situational awareness especially when maneuvering through tight spots.

Also not having the minimap enabled in 3rd person is a good thing and the little camera drone is something i liked too.
These 2 features actually balance through the advantage of having a wider FOV with 3rd PV as one has got to enter 1st PV for radar info plus the enemy can see the little drone even behind cover. Now, i'm NOT a 3rd PV fan, and could do without it (actually i never used 3rd PV in any previous MW titles) and cannot pilot effectively using it. But in the form i tested it today, it does not worry me very much. Aiming and shooting while using it is a bit easier than 1st PV, but since i experienced some major lag issues in my drops, i could not effectively differentiate between the 2 modes.

Finally a couple of last observations:
1) When piloting a fast light mech, the camera does not seem to follow smoothly,especially while toso twisting and turning, and i got some serious clipping effects.
2) Weapon trails being absent right now, is a bit confusing when shooting as its hard to see where the shot went
3) I experienced quite a few crashes back to the mechlab after launching for a match. However my client did not crash and was able to launch again.
4) 2x XP feature is really nice

my system specs:
AMD phenom 9850 quad core CPU at 2.5 GHz
Asus M2N32 Sli Deluxe Mainboard
Asus HD7770 HD 1GB DDR5 Graphics card
4 GB DDR2 800MHz memory

EDIT: mechs used for the test:
CDA-2A, HBK-4H, HGN-732, Flame

Edited by Brut4ce, 01 August 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Elizander]

Right now people can probably just use it to peek over obstacles and then switch to 1stPV to fight once they know where the enemy is. This is just basing it off the screen shots and what I've read so far.

The only thing I can recommend is having the 8v8 veterans duke it out with 3PV and get their feedback (well knowing them you'd probably have to pick out the meat from a sea of rants that go along with it). They will be the ones who can tell you if they can really get an advantage in 3PV in a serious match.

Edited by Elizander, 01 August 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[AndyHill]

TexAss, on 01 August 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

That's not "not able to see no legs/ just a bit of the legs"...just saying.

This is:


...note that it's also "giving a huge tactical advantage".

[Tiger 6]

In the stalker, I can't see my legs while looking down. Highlander wasn't too bad, I didn't have chance to test anything else.

The reticule bounces around at close in targets (and seems to 'snap' onto a mech when you move the reticule over it), but doesn't move when looking at things far away - logic would dictate the other way around surely? (i.e. I should have a better chance of hitting a close up target)

The Flashing light on the "3rd person drone" gives away the position of the mech at great distance - especially on a dark map like forest colony or against the rock faces in Alpine. (didn't get to test in River city night - can't imagine its any better tho, people complained about the original Closed Beta Atlas' glowing eyes as it was too easy to spot)

No mini map to see seismic, or contacts behind you that your team mates can see.

I didn't get to test in a tight urban environment like River City (or peak over the ridge in Frozen City), so I couldn't tell if the view was enough for me to gain advantage by seeing over obstacles.

[joking] If the objective is to make something that sucks so bad that the user goes to first person as soon as they figure out the basic controls of the mech, then its perfect ! [/joking]

For a new user, my feeling is a more zoomed out version of what we saw tonight would be helpful - but as somebody else already said, I would only want that to be in an off line tutorial setting where experienced users can't also gain the benefit. If I think of more I will come back and edit..

Edit:
Having had a couple of hours to think about it, I'm still not sure about what the goal is for 3rd person, and why (the current implementation) would be desirable?

If this test is for a 3rd person view mode that is trying to be balanced with 1st person, then as it currently stands I feel that it puts you at a disadvantage over 1st person view - cross hair shake, reduced situational awareness, glowing neon "I am here" beacons etc.

If this is to help new players, then I'm just not seeing it. For a new player I would want to see more information on the screen - the mini map definitely, as well as being zoomed out just a little more so that they can see the incoming fire from the sides and behind, (hopefully) spot the red flashing indicators on the screen and realise the relationship between the 2.

Maybe for the next test I'd at least suggest adding the mini map in the top corner of the screen, and loose the lights from the 3rd person drone, and let's see how that works?

Edited by Tiger 6, 01 August 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Krivvan]

Tiger 6, on 01 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

If the objective is to make something that sucks so bad that the user goes to first person as soon as they figure out the basic controls of the mech, then its perfect !

Why would you say that's a joke? I think that's exactly the point. To give an incentive to using 1st person once you've gotten over the basic controls.

[AgroAlba]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?

Hunchback, Cicada

• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?

Aiming needs a lot of work. Reticle jitter was substantial, due to the reticle compensating for distance and convergance, I assume. Camera felt pretty sluggish. The camera needs to be back a bit further, because I could not see my Legs. Didn't increase awareness of torso rotation, but in fact hindered it.

• Any additional comments or concerns.

What I sated above, the camera is so close to some mechs, you can't see your legs, and thus won't help new players at all. I think the basic implimentation is really well done. There are enough cons to the 3pv to keep it on par with 1pv. 3pv increases situational awareness a bit, but you can't target anything you the pilot can't see. No minimap doesn't give you super situational awareness. Seeing other peoples drones flying around let me know who was using it and who wasn't.

I do not believe this will in any way affect the larger gameplay negatively.

[Reno Blade]

• Which Mech(s) did you use for this test?
  
  Spider (Laser), Quickdraw (SRM), Jagermech(Laser+Gauss), Catapult (LRM)
  
• What improvements would you like to see with 3^rd person view?
  
  Make it visible to why the crosshair jumps (line of sight like a TAG laser) ?
  Change FoV to 80 as default for 3PV to see more of the mech ?
  Slower fade in/out animation
  
• Any additional comments or concerns.
  
  
  Overall I'd say this is pretty balanced. The disadvantages are even slightly higher than the advantages.
  
  The field of view makes a huge difference here.
  Playing with default settings (no foc in the user.cfg) only shows your shoulders on most mechs.
  
  Here are 3 screenshots of a spider with FOV default, FOV 80° and FOV 120° (alien mode):

Default:


80°

120° alien mode


The good things:
- no arm movements (good for beginners and for balancing)
- no map (good for balancing)
- crosshair follows line of sight (logical to prevent "shoot through the ground" or " I was aiming behind/above, why am i not hitting" problems. This is a pretty big disadvantage, as you can't realy aim well with the jumping behaviour of the crosshair. (good for balance, bad for beginners)
- "look here" drone showing targets in the far and behind cover that use 3PV. (best balance!)

The bad:
- no minimap (just because beginners would be clueless without a map.) On games like CoD you only have no map if you play "hardcore" modes. This might be counter-intuitive for the beginner-help.
- the "look here" drone may make it easier to find and kill beginners that don't know they are so easy to spot with that drone.
- jumping crosshair might be too strange/difficult for beginners

Edited by Reno Blade, 01 August 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[AntharPrime]

Exoth3rmic, on 01 August 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

It isn't.

Moogles, on 01 August 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

You're also at 3x zoom in your cockpit shot.

Try harder

He's in the same zoom in both views, so what's your point?

[ManDaisy]

Why are so many people saying no mini map is a disdavantage? Just pop open the battle grid for a split seconds and your good. If anything no minimap is better cause it doesnt block your view at all.

[Acid Phase]

I don't need to join this afternoon's public test. Pictures have spoken a thousand words. The FOV in 3rd person is massive. There is no way to tweak 3PV in a way that doesn't give a massive advantage. You can see more of what's going on in the left, right and above you. So no. I don't care for it, and if it is implemented I'm done. Moving on. I can see many if not all playing this mode for obvious reasons.

Edited by Acid Phase, 01 August 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Urdnot Mau]

- Reticule. My reticule was awfull. It was very hard to aim properly and there was a lot of blind spots where i could not reach (in comparison to live servers). ARM MOVEMENT (???) my arm moved just as fast as my torso. WTH ? I couldn't aim upwards as much as i could in 1PV

- It was very strange to see those drones flying around.

- I really enjoyed to see my mechs from a different perspective

- 3PV has a big downside for a few chassis. With some of them your awareness of your components and where your weapons are firing from is lowered (for example using the CTF-4X on Canyon)

- I see you tried to compensate the greater "line of sight" (from behind cover) with the lack of mini-map. That makes sense, but you should put yourselves in the shoes of your players. I can switch from 1PV to 3PV at any time, so if i wanna peek over the ridge of Frozen city of from behind builds (etc) i switch to 3PV, and then i switch back to 1PV. If i'm gonna pop tart, i'll use 3PV, fire my weapons and then go back to 1PV. Simple.

- I had major "lags" when using 3PV. Not really me, but my mech was clearly "rubberbanding" (i was using my Spider at 151 kph)


Overall: Did i like it? Yes. Do i wanna see that on live servers during matches ? No. Not even in the testing grounds.
If i were to see this on live servers my will to spend money on this game would decrease a lot and i would not use this feature.

OBS: why didn't you bother asking people about FPS/PING performance ?

Edited by Urdnot Mau, 01 August 2013 - 11:40 AM.