260 replies to this topic

[Farpenoodle]

Seismic is still really good. You people who think it's not are nuts.

[One Medic Army]

Farpenoodle, on 03 August 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Seismic is still really good. You people who think it's not are nuts.

Pretty much.
I think some people are a wee but ******** that lights can actually get into range of them now before being picked up, which just means they were relying on seismic too much and it's their own poor awareness to blame.

[Purlana]

You mean it actually takes awareness to recon now? Oh no, what shall you do!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ghostrider0067, on 02 August 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Riddle me this: Why would seismic sensors work, AT ALL, if you're moving and thus generating seismic waves of your own to clutter the signal and thereby lead to a false reading? I suppose that seeing as how this game takes place far into the future that some kind of technology to eliminate your own signal would more than likely exist, but speculation of future tech is just that.

While I don't use it, the only clear option for it to work as it should would require you to remain stationary, albeit briefly, in order to pick up the signal of any oncoming mechs. Seeing as how some maps are wide open, remaining still could lead to a quick end; however, most maps offer some sort of cover that would enable you to get your reading, utilize your speed advantage to bug out before those enemies know you're onto them, and live to fight on.

This one is easy. Seismic doesn't read outgoing waves, in fact since they are outgoing, they don't reach the sensor at all. It only reads incoming waves or those generated by other mechs. IFF is used in the Filtering process so all sensor readings from known friendly mechs are filtered leaving only unknown reading. These unknown reading are then labled by the computer as Enemy.

Radar kind of works the same way. The Radar antenne projects waves outward and only reads the waves that are reflected back to the recieve i.e. hard objects that are likely aircraft.

Sonar is also the same. Sound is sent through water until it hits a solid object or denser water at which point, it reflects back to the sonar reciever.

[One Medic Army]

Viktor Drake, on 03 August 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

This one is easy. Seismic doesn't read outgoing waves, in fact since they are outgoing, they don't reach the sensor at all. It only reads incoming waves or those generated by other mechs. IFF is used in the Filtering process so all sensor readings from known friendly mechs are filtered leaving only unknown reading. These unknown reading are then labled by the computer as Enemy.

Radar kind of works the same way. The Radar antenne projects waves outward and only reads the waves that are reflected back to the recieve i.e. hard objects that are likely aircraft.

Sonar is also the same. Sound is sent through water until it hits a solid object or denser water at which point, it reflects back to the sonar reciever.

• You are arguing physics and realism when discussing 31st century giant space robots
  
• You are getting your facts wrong, seismic detects seismic disturbances, it does not send out any sorts of waves, it's a passive sensor.

Someone just killed a whole box of kittens over your post.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Waking One, on 02 August 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

You do realise that seismic is a light killer, it works against scouts way more than it works in your favour.

Absolutely not. Now as a Scout, I am blind where as before I could always determine where the enemy way. This is just an example of the close minded thinking that got seismic nerfed in the first place.

Let me give you a real game example that has happend to me like 5 times now that seismic has been nerfed.

I am in my Jenner hunting for vulnerable targets. I see what appears to be a lone red dot so I vector in on him at 140 kph. I cross over the top of the hill to engage and just about this time, I glance down and notice that about 50-100m behind him is the entire enemy team. However, because I didn't see him to 250m and I am traveling at 140 kph, by the time I recognize the danger and try to sheer off my attack, I am only about 100-150m from him and easily within 200-300m of the enemy team. I get focus fired and BOOM...bye, bye Jenner. By the way, this is one of the those tactics I was telling you about. Using Seismic to find vulnerable lone mechs and know I had a significant buffer around me and him to prevent me getting ganged up on and killed. 250m isn't enough to insure I can escape because I am in range of ever weapon in the game, including lights that can run just as fast as me and keep me in their range.

Another example. I decide to go cave on Forest Colony which as we all know is extremely narrow and relatively hard to navigate. I start running through everything looks good. Suddenly, I see a red dot at 250m but well again I am running 140 kph and have zero room to sheer off. So I have half a second of running to react which takes me in around 50m or so at 140 kph. Then I have to come to a completely stop and turn. All the while the one dot has turned into 3 and they have managed to close in on me another 100m. Now by the time I get turned around, I am less than 100m away from the first mech who is chewing me up and spitting me out.

As I said, I am blind as a Light mech. Now I am relying much more on pure luck and guesswork rather than hard information and planned tactics. Also I don't find the 250m limitation to be a real problem on my heavier, slower mechs only on my light mechs. This is due to the speed my Light Mechs travel. You just can't react fast enough to the information you recieve with a 250m range when your running full speed at 130-150 kph.

[Purlana]

Viktor Drake, on 03 August 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Now I am relying much more on pure luck and guesswork rather than hard information and planned tactics. Also I don't find the 250m limitation to be a real problem on my heavier, slower mechs only on my light mechs. This is due to the speed my Light Mechs travel. You just can't react fast enough to the information you recieve with a 250m range when your running full speed at 130-150 kph.

So be more careful when you recon. If you rush in blind you should expect to have a bad time when ambushed...?

[Damocles]

However powerful/weak you want it to be, it should never be an always-on item. When it is active you should not be able to utilize other sensor suits simultaneously (NV, Thermals, MAD). Play River city night with seismic active and youre bumping around blind.

[Angel of Annihilation]

One Medic Army, on 03 August 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

• You are arguing physics and realism when discussing 31st century giant space robots
  
• You are getting your facts wrong, seismic detects seismic disturbances, it does not send out any sorts of waves, it's a passive sensor.

Someone just killed a whole box of kittens over your post.

Read up on Earthquakes would you before posting. Real Siesmic devices pick up vibrations which are WAVES that propagate through the ground.

Seismic waves are waves of energy that travel through the Earth's layers, and are a result of an earthquake, explosion, or a volcano that imparts low-frequency acoustic energy. The propagation velocity of the waves depends on density and elasticity of the medium.

The seismic senser IS a passive device. It detects incomming SEISMIC WAVES that are acoustic in nature.

A mech stomping sends OUT seismic waves. I.E. when the mech that is equiped with a seismic module steps, it sends out waves.

So while the module itself doesn't send out a wave, the mech it is equiped to does. The similarity to Radar and Sonar is in the fact that they, as well as the siemic sensor read the incoming waves to determine the location of an object.

Additionaly I am arguing physics and realism when discusing 31st century giant space robots because YOU specifically asked for an explaination of how seismic could work. Don't get all upset because someone stepped up when you called them out in the first place.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 03 August 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[One Medic Army]

Viktor Drake, on 03 August 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Read up on Earthquakes would you before posting. Real Siesmic devices pick up vibrations which are WAVES that propagate through the ground.

Seismic waves are waves of energy that travel through the Earth's layers, and are a result of an earthquake, explosion, or a volcano that imparts low-frequency acoustic energy. The propagation velocity of the waves depends on density and elasticity of the medium.

The seismic senser IS a passive device. It detects incomming SEISMIC WAVES that are acoustic in nature.

A mech stomping sends OUT seismic waves. I.E. when the mech that is equiped with a seismic module steps, it sends out waves.

So while the module itself doesn't send out a wave, the mech it is equiped to does. The similarity to Radar and Sonar is in the fact that they, as well as the siemic sensor read the incoming waves to determine the location of an object.

Additionaly I am arguing physics and realism when discusing 31st century giant space robots because YOU specifically asked for an explaination of how seismic could work. Don't get all upset because someone stepped up when you called them out in the first place.

I know exactly how a seismic sensor works. You're the one who insinuated it works like radar and sonar, where the sensor is active and sends out a "ping" then listens for an echo.
To clarity, radar and sonar are active, in that they listen for a reflection of the signal thy send out.
Seismic sensors are passive and listen for waves generated by other things, not reflected back at them.

I did not ask for how seismic works in game. I just asked for it gone.

[edit] If you're having trouble scouting now that seismic is gone, that's your problem. People scouted with light mechs before seismic existed, seismic is not a requirement, you need to learn how to scout without your training wheels module.

Edited by One Medic Army, 03 August 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Purlana, on 03 August 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

So be more careful when you recon. If you rush in blind you should expect to have a bad time when ambushed...?

Yes I know but your missing the point I am trying to make. The majority of complainers where light mech pilots who claim that Seismic made them obsolete and generally disadvantages lights. However that is not the case at all. Light are at a much larger disadvantage without Sesimic.

Also I am not rushing in blind. I am using all my sensors. Radar, Visual and Seismic however neither radar or my eyes can see over a hill. Seismic can however and could, before the nerf, prevent me from running into that ambush. Now it is near useless for anything other than seeing if there is an enemy close behind you.

Damocles, on 03 August 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

However powerful/weak you want it to be, it should never be an always-on item. When it is active you should not be able to utilize other sensor suits simultaneously (NV, Thermals, MAD). Play River city night with seismic active and youre bumping around blind.

Really. I guess then an Aegis Cruiser shouldn't be able to use Sonar and Radar simultanously huh? However it manages to use all the following simultanously, AN/SPY-1 Radar, MK 99 Fire Control System, WCS, the Command and Decision Suite and Sonar.

Come on, we are talking 1000 years in the future where man can fly between the stars and has settled several hundreds of worlds. I am absolutely sure they can produce technology that allows for using multiple sensor systems at once.

[Jestun]

The game no longer does all the work for the scouts?

How will they manage?

[Leafia Barrett]

Here's a thought I had. Make the Seismic Sensor give you a digital version of one of these

on your HUD. For the sake of not being useless, it'd only pick up enemy mechs, but still. Imagine, a seismic sensor picking up seismic activity instead of being a wallhack. Crazy idea, I know.

[Taemien]

Viktor Drake, on 02 August 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You guys are all lame seriously. Obviously you all never used seismic and just whined and complained about it rather than using it to an advantage. Still the sad part is that each and everyone one of you benefited from it a some time or another due to someone on your team using it for Recon but are too stubborn to admit how useful it was to your team.

Pretty sure BAP + Adv Sensor Module lvl 2 does more for the team. Something about triple the range, giving coverage over nearly the entire map gives it a slight advantage. Slap ECM on top of that and you can't be seen back.

Whereas Seismic was only useful to 400m. And half the time the person you detected... also detected you. How good of a scout mechanism is that? No, it was a pitiful excuse for a scouting tool. Its use for combat was for close range combat, especially in very hilly or urban type environments. Which its still good for. It just doesn't totally obsolete some methods of tactics.

[Rippthrough]

Leafia Barrett, on 03 August 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Here's a thought I had. Make the Seismic Sensor give you a digital version of one of these

on your HUD. For the sake of not being useless, it'd only pick up enemy mechs, but still. Imagine, a seismic sensor picking up seismic activity instead of being a wallhack. Crazy idea, I know.

That's what I wanted.

[Damocles]

Viktor Drake, on 03 August 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Come on, we are talking 1000 years in the future where man can fly between the stars and has settled several hundreds of worlds. I am absolutely sure they can produce technology that allows for using multiple sensor systems at once.

We are talking about a fictional universe which this game is trying to portray.
In this fiction, seismic sensors were toggled between just like NV, Thermals, Magnetic anomaly and visible light.

[Umbra8]

Some thoughts about seismic and weight classes:

This is a module that drastically favors heavier mechs over light classes. Why? The light scout is either going to be locating and tagging targets or attempting to find an isolated mech to engage and either cripple or destroy before support can arrive. Either of these tasks requires the scout to get behind enemy lines, remain undetected and choose an engagement scenario that most benefits them. Seismic works against the light much more than it helps in all of these scenarios. The front line may detect your passage and if the brawlers aren't moving you may not even know your trajectory's been revealed, trawling behind the front for isolated targets or snipers has a much higher detection chance and even when you engage your target will be warned, possibly before you even break cover. Once a fight with a heavier class starts the main advantage of speed and maneuverability entails the use of terrain features to obscure your chosen route and confuse your victim, constantly hitting them in exposed sections or rear armour while they try to track you with a slower turn speed and less responsive torso twist, all of which is used to maximum efficiency if they have seismic. Even worse, most targets in the rear are either missile boats or snipers, two classes which often move little if at all and wont show on seismic anyway. Meanwhile your 150m/s light is pinging like the Macy's day parade. Seismic was really not required to find these targets anyway, if you couldn't trace back the missile contrails or ppc light show then it's time to turn in your mechwarrior licence and take up shuffleboard. Lastly, this module makes disengagement more difficult for the light and chase easier for the reinforcements. Sure, you aren't surprised rounding a corner, but your opponents with the ppc's or autocannons are also going to know where, when, and in what direction you will be clearing cover. I'd much rather rely on the surprise of my light's sudden appearance and 150m/s speed to avoid a crippling engagement rather than all party's involved knowing where each other is.

tl;dr: In an engagement behind enemy lines movement-triggered sensor capabilities that ignore cover are worse for the high-speed skirmisher than the occasionally stationary local forces.

ps: If I had my druthers, this module would be removed from the game and all gxp and mc costs refunded.

Edited by Umbra8, 03 August 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Sporklift]

I mainly splurged for it when I got my Highlander and light mechs kept hiding under my butt and coring my back (because all my medium teammates ran off). I wasn't fast enough to get away (can't just step on him either ) and I couldn't see down far enough to figure out where he was. So if we get rid of seismic completely I want some sort of close-range (around 10m) rear arc non-lockable radar, and the ability to see my toes.

[Taemien]

Sporklift, on 03 August 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I mainly splurged for it when I got my Highlander and light mechs kept hiding under my butt and coring my back (because all my medium teammates ran off). I wasn't fast enough to get away (can't just step on him either ) and I couldn't see down far enough to figure out where he was. So if we get rid of seismic completely I want some sort of close-range (around 10m) rear arc non-lockable radar, and the ability to see my toes.

360 Sensor Module. Already in game.

[Deathlike]

Taemien, on 03 August 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

360 Sensor Module. Already in game.

That module actually isn't that good.. if I understand its function correctly. It's only info retention of mechs that have spotted near you (200m only)... Target Decay has more value than that.