196 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

Druidika, on 11 August 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

• Making consumables worth using. Newer players won't be able to use them (as often), but right now they have so little effect that basically no one's wasting money on them.
  
• More c-bill colors.
  
• C-bill patterns (not the premium ones).
  
• Making mech-bays available for increasingly higher amounts of c-bills (5m, 10m, 20m,...)

This whole income reduction is only going to further aggravate their player retention issues. I highly doubt they're adding new players at a rapid rate. Certainly not after this change.

Make the default camo schemes from other mechs available for purchase via C-Bills only...bam! Easy C-Bill sink! I'd buy them all.

[MrJolly]

rgreat, on 11 August 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Maybe because all this salvaging thing is counter-intuitive for average user compared for damage done and mech destroyed?

"The spoils of war go to the winners of the battle." - Not a very hard concept to grasp.

Royalewithcheese, on 11 August 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I can only speak for myself, here, but the money I spend on this game will likely be through mechbays (meaning that the money I spend scales with the rate at which I get c-bills) and no level of grindiness will convince me to buy an imaginary robot in a computer game for $10+. It can, however, make the game stagnant (from my perspective) to the point where I'll switch over to something else, which is why I stopped playing Tribes. I suspect I'm not the only player with this set of preferences.

This. I'm kind of in the mech collector style, and for me lower C-Bills leads to me giving less money to PGI:

• I buy less mechs, so I need fewer mech bays. Buying 5-10 mechbays a month is a not insignificant income in a f2p game.
  
• Converting XP to GXP is no longer meaningful, as GXP grows faster than C-Bills. I have several modules leveled but not bought.
  
• Premium time feels like it's less effective (although it has the same effect as always), so I might be less inclined to buy it.

Druidika, on 11 August 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

This does nothing to diminish stockpiles. All it does is **** people over that don't have a nice selection of of fully upgraded mechs already.

This. Having only one "good" mech makes you much less efficient at amassing C-Bills.

Wintersdark, on 11 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

In short, while this is sucky, what can they possibly do about huge c-bill stockpiles given that they would need to reduce earnings regardless to prevent everyone from amassing huge ones? They obviously can't just take peoples c-bills away, and introducing additional costs hurts new players even more. They're continuously adding new mechs, so that's covered... what else can they do?

If they want to get the C-Bill moguls to empty their accounts, there would have to be something new. Maybe in CW they can have "travel wherever you want" cost insane C-Bill amounts, but "travel where your faction wants your presence" is cheap. That would lead C-Bill heavy teams to have the possibility to conquer planets and hold territory, at high C-Bill costs (when they need to defend their territory).

Druidika, on 11 August 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

The longer a grind is, the less casual players keep playing before they spend their first cent. That's really just free2play 101.

Considering that "buy extra mech bays" is the most likely stepping stone to get people from non-paying to paying, they just pushed that conversion longer into the future...

Wintersdark, on 11 August 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

I'm sure there'll be the odd player who draws the "Grind Line" between the current (likely to be further adjusted as per Paul's comments) cbill rate and the old cbill rate, but I really can't see that as being a big amount of them. It's just not really that big a change, and they'll know as they improve, their cbill earnings will improve too.

I think some can see it. Previously, you had a "yeah, big winnings (6 figures) when you won", which offset the lousy winnings for a big loss. Now most winnings are 5 figures, so it doesn't feel like you're making a stride any more. At the non-premium rate it now feels less like "I'm saving up for this mech" and more "I'll get a new mech someday, eventually".

Wintersdark, on 11 August 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

I think the number of people who will stop playing post-nerf due to grindiness but wouldn't have before the nerf isn't very big. Your friends quit before the nerf; they're clearly not grindy people.

I really, REALLY doubt many people will leave because of this; particularly not people with no frame of reference (re: Newer players who never experienced the old income level).

Yeah, people with no reference frame will probably not notice. All those in the grind at present will, though.

Wintersdark, on 12 August 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I didn't say it did. I said they likely implemented this as a stop gap to delay people amassing absurd mountains of cbills while waiting for additional money sinks to come online with Community Warfare.

You basically have two kinds of players who play much enough to amass C-Bills - hardcore competetive players and hardcore mech collectors. The first ones already have mountains of C-Bills which won't go away. The latter ones will be buying mech bays at a slower rate, i.e. give PGI less money.

[Wintersdark]

Dozier, on 12 August 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Why would they just allow people to play as they are/were and enjoy a smaller grind. Building an inventory of mech to mess with, and load out. Because atm, there really isnt a big hook to keep people here.

Then at the time (if it arrives) of CW announce there will be a wipe of cbills, so people can spend before. Either way some will be mad if they do, and some will if they dont.

O.O

Seriously, this is one of the most terrible ideas I've heard on this forum, and that's saying something.

Reduce earnings: Irritate and annoy people, but nobody is going to quit over that. It sucks, but sh*t happens.

Wipe C-Bills at Launch (re: with CW): I'd be unsurprised to hear someone firebombed PGI's offices. All through Open Beta, they've been right up front about no more wipes of anything other than potentially stats (when achievements are launched, for fairly obvious reasons). The absolutely, positively cannot just randomly wipe people's c-bills.

The first of these reduces what you earn in the future. The second undoes everything you've worked for over the last (given this would happen in september) 10 months.

Yeah.

No.

[Corvus Antaka]

atownexl, on 11 August 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

I don't think I've ever felt this kind of frustration over a video game before. I want to play Mechwarrior; I'm willing (and have) to buy an overlord package and MC packages. I've spent more on this than any game I've ever played. I'm sure others are in the same boat.

I'm OK with spending $150 on what used to be a $60 box game. I'm not OK with feeling like I'm getting screwed over.

Putting up patch notes saying the game is being adjusted to account for a big change in matchups, and they making a much smaller statement that shows that the previous statement isn't true at all.. that's not right.

+1

[MaddMaxx]

Dozier, on 11 August 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

The people who have been playing and just about figured out what type of mechs they like and have what they want will probably learn to deal with it. Newer people will probably not stay and suffer through the grind to get there.

That would explain why WoW did so poorly... oh wait. No grind in WoW right. LOL

[Kushko]

MaddMaxx, on 13 August 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

That would explain why WoW did so poorly... oh wait. No grind in WoW right. LOL

MWO and WoW are two completely different games. I really cant see how you could think you proved a point by comparing them...

[Mizore]

Spirit of the Wolf, on 11 August 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

SO WHY THE BLOODY HELL DID THEY TAKE SALVAGE BONUSES FROM 80-90K DOWN TO EFFING 20K?

Maybe because every ***** is riding a heavy or assault mech and thus theres much more salvage bonus than intended?

Edited by Mizore, 13 August 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Real-world anecdote:

Prior to the c-bill nerf, I would by premium time twice a month, usually a 24 hour chunk and play 6 hours in an evening and 6 more the next morning. (500 MC per month)

My average earnings pre-patch were 160,000+ per match (found on stats page), I’ll assume a decent chunk of that includes premium bonuses so instead of adding 50% for premium time I figure 25%, assuming that half the time I play it is using premium time. So we are at 200,000 per match. And with an average of 7.5 minute matches I could play 8 matches an hour for an average monthly income of (24 hours premium time x 8 matches/hour x 200,000 C-Bill = 38,400,000 C-Bills. PGI makes a measly 2 x 250 MC for my 2 x 24 hour sessions that month.

But, with 38.4 million C-Bills I buy 3 mechs (usually whatever was released that month) and customize them. That means I have to buy 3 Mech Bays (3 x 300 MC = 900 MC). And because I am lazy I don’t always grind out every last mech XP and will usually purchase the a good chunk of pilot skills with GXP, say 50,000 across all 3 mechs (50,000GXP/25 = 2000 MC).

And while I don’t purchase every Hero mech I will pick them up if I like the chassis. I have spent over 20,000 MC in the last year, so about 1,700 MC per month on my current purchase schedule.

So I am on average spending (500 + 900 + 2000 + 1700) over 5,000 MC per month (about $20 with the top tier MC package). Almost all completely based on rate I accumulate C-Bills and the rate which PGI releases chassis.

Now with the new C-Bill nerf (and Elo hell) I am earning about 50,000 per match, and I am not buying premium time because it has been so massively devalued. NOTE: that 50,000 is just a guesstimate based on post-match results, it could be higher or lower, but it is nowhere near the 160,000 I can confirm I was making). So now I am making 50,000 per match and my matches are taking 12 minutes instead of 7.5 minutes, my monthly income is (24 hours x 5 matches/hour x 50,000 CBs) = 6,000,000 C-Bills per month, approximately 1/6 of my previous income, and therefore 1/6 of my previous purchase rate.

This means under the new economy my spending rate has dropped from $20.00 per month down to $3.50, bases solely on the C-Bill earning rate.

You may think hyperbole, but if you (PGI) look into my spending habits in this game you will find those number pretty dang close, maybe even on the conservative side. And I know I am not alone on this issue. I strongly urge you to consider the cause and effect of lowering C-Bill earning.

[soapyfrog]

Earnings have been cut between 10-20% depending on how well you did (the better you do the more it's nerfed due to the base reward being untouched).

There is no way you are averaging 50k per match unless you are showing up at the start and self destructing. You really need to accomplish nothing useful to make so little money. There is no way you were averaging 200k a match before the patch even with premium unless you were piloting nothing but hero mechs (or you are the god of all mechwarriors maybe).

Tell you what; go play 5 matches, take screenshots of your earnings, post/link them here and I'll break down for you what those matches would have earned you before the patch. It's definitely less, don't get me wrong, and less sucks, but you are basically claiming 75% less when the truth is 10-20% less.

I don't think it really helps anyone's position to massively overstate your case. As a counterpoint, I play with 3 casual players on a weekly basis who are COMPLETELY unaware that earnings have been nerfed.

Again, this is not a value judgement for or against the earnings nerf, just an appeal for objectivity.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

soapyfrog, on 13 August 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Earnings have been cut between 10-20% depending on how well you did (the better you do the more it's nerfed due to the base reward being untouched).
There is no way you are averaging 50k per match ...

There is no way you were averaging 200k a match before the patch even with premium unless you were piloting nothing but hero mechs (or you are the god of all mechwarriors maybe).

First, I know I was averaging 160,000 becaues it is listed in my stats. 5,000 games since open-beta reset with a 2:1 win:loss. And I assumed that about half my games were with premium time, I figure my real unmodified earning to be around 133,000 per match. I make no claims to personal skill, I just took numbers from my profile stats page.

As for 50,000, yes I do check my match results and it is very easy to score in that range. I specifically mentioned I am in Elo hell. I am losing way more matches than I am winning, which directly impacts my earnings, including the amount of kills and assists.

Let me put it to you this way. How much do you think a medium brawler mech (my preferred play style) should make per match given the current meta and matchmaker?

Actually it doesn’t matter. Perception is the only thing that matters. I look at my match earnings and see 50,000 C-Bills, I look at my profile and see 160,000 C-Bills average over 5,000 matches. That is enough for me to realize now is not the time to pay for premium time.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 13 August 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 August 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Let me put it to you this way. How much do you think a medium brawler mech (my preferred play style) should make per match given the current meta and matchmaker?

In my Blackjack I have been averaging about 125k with premium, and I have in fact still managed to surpass 200k cbills about 1 match in 10.

We are not too radically different. I am ~4500 matches played with ~150k cbill average. I am definfitely also losing more than I am winning since the patch I'm hovering around 0.8 win/loss right now... but the thing of it is I am usually seeing 90-120k for a LOSS.

Anyway whether you are earning 50k or 200k, post screenshots and we can calculate how much you wouldhave made pre-patch. e.g. if you only make 50k in a match now, you would not have made much more before the patch (55-60k at most).

Possibly you have a wider complaint about 12v12... longer matches, harder matches (as with you I have been performing worse since 12v12 went in), but the earning nerf is not specifically what is causing you to go from 133k to 50k. A match that would have earned you 133k before the paytch would now earn you 110k-ish.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Myself i was thinking of buying a kintaro when the c-bill version came out but now i'm thinking i'll wait and not spend MC on more mech bays until orion comes out now.

I wont stop playing but i have 30 mechs and i can afford not to buy every new mech that comes out and hoard my c-bills if thats what it takes.

[Rugarou]

I can attest to Agent of Fortune's problem. Pre-nerf I was averaging 145k per match (for 1700 matches). Post patch it is more like 90k per match if I win. For a loss I am looking at more like 55k-60k on average. My W/L ratio has dropped significantly post patch as well. Sure I have some higher games were I earn 90k+ on a loss, but those are outliers.The disparity for losses is attributed to less time on the field and less time to do damage or get kills. Hence why we see loss values at greater than 30% reduction from before the patch.

And it is a problem for PGI. I've had a lot of time recently to play. When an 8 hour total play session for the day only nets you 3 million c-bills (barely enough for a light mech without modifications) there is a problem. I was planning on buying 7-8 mech bays and a couple hero mechs. The mech bays were mainly going to be for the heavies I haven't mastered yet, but now it isn't worth it due to how long it will take me to earn the c-bills for even 1 heavy mech plus modifications. Rather just play what I got and save the money.

[Dawnstealer]

It takes about 8-10 matches to make a million: that's not totally ridiculous. Wish I would have started my premium time earlier, but still...

[Leroy Jenkens]

TexAss, on 11 August 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

seems so...pity

you know, you don't have to pay anything...huh?

Pretty sure we all know that and I'm sure even less will pay now. Games dying a slow painful death.

[Edson Drake]

Well this is intriguing.

I don't really understand why this was necessary. It's completely wrong and screws all types of players except the vast minority that has over 100 million C-Bills.

No one likes grinding PGI, it really is the bane of F2P games. I thought we were already earning too little before and now it gets reduced while we have longer fights. To your own benefit, you should seriously revert earnings back or at least improve them to an acceptable level.

I was about to start using premium time, but now it almost feels meaningless. I had friends that tried out the game and got their cadet bonus and thought it was alright, as soon as it ended and they noticed the reality of their earnings, they abandoned the game(among other things).

These are the players you are trying to attract, the kind that will abandon the game at the slight offence.

Listen to the core player base, we know what's good for the game, we play it, a lot. If the game is liked by the player base, other curious players will come along, en masse.
Right now, when I try to recommend the game to friends, as soon as I mention there is a grind for a new mech, they just turn away for another game, it's a shame.

Now this? It will make things worse. I want my personal friends(they have fat wallets as well) in here PGI, you're not helping.

[Takony]

5 kills 3 assists 390dmg 4 component destr. 2 saviour kills WIN 166.000 cbills WITH Premium. WTF is wrong with PGI I used to get this kind of cbills for a 1-2 kill LOSS. No matter my performance, looking at earnings makes me feel I lose each and every match regardless of win/loss. No sense of achievement, no progress towards new mechs, and no more MC purchase for premium since premium became worthless, 150% of nothing is still nothing. GG on alienating long time players and kicking new players in the teeth. Seriously, if anything,we should be earning MORE cbills per match since matches got like 30-50% longer, so we get less cbill per hour or at best break even without any frigging 'adjustment'.

[KharnZor]

Leroy Jenkens, on 13 August 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Pretty sure we all know that and I'm sure even less will pay now. Games dying a slow painful death.

Yea no.

[MadcatX]

Takony, on 13 August 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

5 kills 3 assists 390dmg 4 component destr. 2 saviour kills WIN 166.000 cbills WITH Premium. WTF is wrong with PGI I used to get this kind of cbills for a 1-2 kill LOSS. No matter my performance, looking at earnings makes me feel I lose each and every match regardless of win/loss. No sense of achievement, no progress towards new mechs, and no more MC purchase for premium since premium became worthless, 150% of nothing is still nothing. GG on alienating long time players and kicking new players in the teeth. Seriously, if anything,we should be earning MORE cbills per match since matches got like 30-50% longer, so we get less cbill per hour or at best break even without any frigging 'adjustment'.

Welcome to R&R 2.0.

[MoonUnitBeta]

WHAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THEY REMOVED R&R BECAUSE IT WAS ARBITRARY, AND PEOPLE WERE IGNORING IT. … BUT THEY LIKED IT BECAUSE IT REDUCED THE INCOME. SO INSTEAD OF IMPROVING THE SYSTEM, OR IMPLEMENTING REASONS FOR ITS EXISTANCE (YOU KNOW, EXTRA WORK), THEY REMOVED IT AND SIMPLY INCLUDED A FLAT RATE REDUCTION ONTO EVERYONES C-BILL EARNINGS.

YET THEY NOW ARBITRARILY REDUCED THE AMOUNT OF C-BILLS BY AN ARBITRARY AMOUNT AFTER PUTTING IN ARBITARY GHOST HEAT VALUES AND SOON TO IMPLEMENT AN ARBITRARY DESYNC BUG FOR PCC’S AND GAUSS.
They talk really highly about their “priority list”, but a lot of the higher more pressing issues that take a lot of brain power is on the bottom of the barrel. Like convergence, or a working heat scale, and hardpoint sizes… But “NOOOO” they say, “those would take too much time!” It’s easier to put a bandaid on it, and put in the arbitrary things that only serve a single purpose and get the job half done. Rules and restrictions. Make a law book out of them, the manual is ganna be huge. No one wants to play because it’s not a game anymore it’s life style. It’s not an escape anymore it’s real life. You’re earning too much, so you’re ganna get taxed more and come home with less. Your job isn’t supposed to be fun, you’re supposed to hate it, and do it 8 hours a day. Then come home and get that feeling that you aren’t working hard enough because you can’t afford anything.
They ought to make a game called Techwarrior – I’m sure that’s where the real game is at. Heat level? No, put in a Stress level. Get promotions, work your way up and hire your own team. Get that progression feeling of real life going where you have long term and short term goals. Increase your skills and buy tools in areas that you want to accel at. Like Fabricating: buy a welder, a lath, and an angle grinder. Or an electrical or hydraulic or myomer technician. Then specialize in cockpit and sensory electronics, or fusion reactors to make engines more efficient. And the better the tech you are, the more business you will get for the particular specialization you’ve earned. When you’ve maxed out in a certain specialty, you start to see more varied customers with problems that are outside of your specialty, forcing you to become more knowledgeable about the entire mech. So that’ll force you to hire someone that’s more skilled, and you can hire out your own technician to other players that require. You set your rate, or it’s a fixed rate (PGI can balance that part out) and it’s basically takes care of itself, you can still operate your shop in the meantime, and you can be hired on with many people at once. Eventually you become the end-all technician at repairing mechs, you earn enough wealth to buy your own factory, and then look into taking all that knowledge you earned into inventing more efficient and powerful engines, heat sinks, or sensors like seismic sensor, or a UAV drone.

*long pause*

Ugh. Complaining like this isn’t fun. The game is slowly dipping down.
The best thing though is that a month from now I’m kicking myself in the teeth for saying everything. I just hope PGI pulls up the socks and proves me wrong so I can find out what my feet taste like.