156 replies to this topic

[BlindProphet]

eldragon, on 13 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Oh, but they do. See my examples above. Some players become more concerned with padding their stats that the game itself. Happens every single time. Some players may act like jerks regardless, but why encourage it?

If MW:Online teams were like professional sports teams, Stats would be awesome. Merc groups could fill out their roster with players who fill out the weaknesses of their team, and its like a giant game of Fantasy Baseball. But MW:O is a game on the internet where players drop in and out of a match at will and the vast majority of matches are pub matches. A handful of merc groups might use stats for filling the roster, but they would be better off just playing a few matches with a potential recruit.

Which brings me to another problem with stats: They are only as good as the players you play against. A guy who exclusively plays in against skilled opponents in a league might have a terrible K:Death and W:Loss ratio, but his opponents are far more skilled. Compared to the guy who plays only in pub matches against newbies.

I can tell you from years and years of experience playing online games that i've seen just about every single one of those statements in every multiplayer game I've played before the days of persistent global stat tracking. So, my experience tells me you're wrong, which is why I originally skipped over that part of the post we began this discussion over.

I'll also tell you from experience that good clans and commanders do several things when looking at a potential new recruit. Look at their stats, Talk to them, and finally Play with them/have them play with other members of the clan/merc group/ect.

Yes stats are only as good as the people you play against. You are indeed correct. This is why they do not provide all the answers. However they are generally over time, and with enough battles, something that you can use as a quick 'at a glance' assessment of skill. It will tell you where you need to look deeper at someone, what questions you should ask, what they seem to enjoy doing, etc. If you know how to actually read the stats that is.

Edited by blindprophet, 13 June 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Gigadouche, on 12 June 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

I would say in MP games today, aside from idiotic things like achievements and the like, persistant stat tracking is simply not a good thing to have. We're already seeing a lot of it go away in the moba genre (LoL, Dota 2, etc). These devs seems on the ball, so hopefully we wont see it outside of ladders and that kind of thing, where it belongs. I really started to hate BF3 where all I worried about was keeping up my 4.0 KDR. It pigeonholed me into this one type of playstyle that would allow for that kind of inflated KDR - it was very discouraging to try other modes of play that weren't as good in terms of farming up a high KDR. It's best if it just isn't there, period, or if you can turn it on and off at will before/after matches. I could go on, but what do others think?

Leave the stats in. Let no challenge be turned down. Quit punishing people for success by making them change identities every day so they can get games.PUBLISH THE RECORD. Why are we sitting around conspiring to futher flog people for success? Encourage MORE competative play, not LESS. TIghten the match making system so that people who appreciate personal growth tend to play each other, instead of just mostly flogging people who value stagnation as a primary form of existance. I don't want to waste a single game playing with or against people who have no intension of playing on the very edge of their ability. I want my matches to matter and be a source of (self) education. Quit catering to jello.

[Toothman]

Stats or no stats doesn't really matter. Last time someone poked fun at my win ratio in WoT. I had to remind him that it was because I kept getting into the same games as him and he died too fast. Stats are fun but in large random games they are not super important.

[Elkarlo]

I have to say i don't have good WoT Stats at first, but there is a simple problem it, i like to test tanks.
In some i have pretty good stats but the overall.. The problem is in WoT they go for the last Kill, i got most of the Support awards etc etc..
But in the end for most players the win los rate is everything. That i see a lot error made and the most Famous is the Lemming worm. (not concentrating Power but Lemming worm driving like a pearl Necklace that 3 Tanks can Block all 12 from your Team) when you say we need to splitt up, use other ways you are blocked. then comes.. your loss kill ratio ist 49% so shut up. You do the right thing block a sentry point damage two tanks but can't kill because you have 3:1 ratio.


Personally i thing a simple Points per Game ratio would be far better than a Win/loose ratio or K/D. Because points are given for Working for the Team, like scouting, achieving objectivs, destroying enemy Base, doing damage on bigger Mechs etcetc. So working for the Team gets a VISIBLE first Impression how good the player for the Team is realy.

And for goods sake don't give Special points for the final blow.

Edited by Elkarlo, 13 June 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[hornet331]

Elkarlo, on 13 June 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

I have to say i don't have good WoT Stats at first, but there is a simple problem it, i like to test tanks.
In some i have pretty good stats but the overall.. The problem is in WoT they go for the last Kill, i got most of the Support awards etc etc..
But in the end for most players the win los rate is everything. That i see a lot error made and the most Famous is the Lemming worm. (not concentrating Power but Lemming worm driving like a pearl Necklace that 3 Tanks can Block all 12 from your Team) when you say we need to splitt up, use other ways you are blocked. then comes.. your loss kill ratio ist 49% so shut up. You do the right thing block a sentry point damage two tanks but can't kill because you have 3:1 ratio.


Personally i thing a simple Points per Game ratio would be far better than a Win/loose ratio or K/D. Because points are given for Working for the Team, like scouting, achieving objectivs, destroying enemy Base, doing damage on bigger Mechs etcetc. So working for the Team gets a VISIBLE first Impression how good the player for the Team is realy.

Actually only the casual in WoT look on the win rate alone. I you want to get a better perception of someone I usually look into dmg/battle spotted/battle cap-defence/battle, of course winrate. If everything is above avarage you have a player that also will performe most of the time above average.

You also can easily spot stat padders as they usually excel in one thing and the other parts are usually neglected.

[Harabec Weathers]

Sanction, on 13 June 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

See, that sounds like a friggin blast.

Doesn't it?

hornet331, on 13 June 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Care to say the same about any sport game? Especial baseball? Baseball is probably the most stats obsessed game ever, I don't see people crying there stats are meaningless?

I've always wondered why some are shunned as the neckbeard nerd for knowing the stats of various Battlemechs when someone who knows the yearly season statistics for a dozen football players and the history of the team of their choice isn't!

[Jayboltz]

Hyperius, on 12 June 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

But that's still your fault. If you don't like that environment then play with people who don't care about stats. There are plenty of them out there. Blaming the stat itself is pointless.

Ok well I guess my point went over your head. What I'm saying is basically the game shouldn't be polarized in a way that forces you to always play serious for the sake of your stats, or play with "friends" just "for fun" (i.e. rationalizing being horrible with your horrible friends).

I'm not blaming the stats themselves, that doesn't even make sense. I don't remember saying "GRRR IM TIRED OF MY ****** SCORE BEING MADE FUN OF!!11"

I love competitive games and I don't necessarily have a problem with stats themselves, its just that people don't want to feel like their performance is being constantly measured and evaluated. It's good in a competitive setting, like in tournaments and ladders. I just don't like worrying about stats when I'm trying weird mech builds in pub games or w/e.

I think the best compromise is having a ranked ladder system, like LoL has. Otherwise I think everyone will end up having 2 accounts.

[MaddMaxx]

Stats will only have an effect when the time comes that when I point my Guns at a Mech and its Pilots Stats are so High the game won't let me pull the trigger on them.

Until that happens, my advise would be "Keep Moving Sucka's!"

[Sanction]

Harabec Weathers, on 13 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Doesn't it?




I've always wondered why some are shunned as the neckbeard nerd for knowing the stats of various Battlemechs when someone who knows the yearly season statistics for a dozen football players and the history of the team of their choice isn't!

Hopefully I'll run into ya'll when you're having one of those nights. I could go for such a thing. Cicada with jump jets and flamers doing a firey mexican hat dance on assault mechs until destruction? Hell yes.

That has always bugged me. Whether it's cars, sports, or even guns, people have this strange sneering disdain of other people's hobbies. I like blending them frankly, which is why it was easy to go from RPG's to Fantasy Football.

[Gigadouche]

Jayboltz, on 13 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Ok well I guess my point went over your head. What I'm saying is basically the game shouldn't be polarized in a way that forces you to always play serious for the sake of your stats, or play with "friends" just "for fun" (i.e. rationalizing being horrible with your horrible friends).

I'm not blaming the stats themselves, that doesn't even make sense. I don't remember saying "GRRR IM TIRED OF MY ****** SCORE BEING MADE FUN OF!!11"

I love competitive games and I don't necessarily have a problem with stats themselves, its just that people don't want to feel like their performance is being constantly measured and evaluated. It's good in a competitive setting, like in tournaments and ladders. I just don't like worrying about stats when I'm trying weird mech builds in pub games or w/e.

I think the best compromise is having a ranked ladder system, like LoL has. Otherwise I think everyone will end up having 2 accounts.

This is a point I've been trying to make throughout this thread. There are a lot of derps making replies that are all gung ho for being measured constantly. My only reasoning as to why they would actually want that is they have never actually been competitive in any game/sport or other activity ever in their lives, otherwise they would know there is a distinct difference in energy you put into something to play at a competitive level (i.e. your absolute best). If you were truly competitive at anything you would know that playing at that level requires a great deal more effort, thinking, and just overall energy from you, and can be quite stressful (but obviously rewarding in some way or else there would be no competitive games or sports). When these global metric stats are ALWAYS used as a go-to yardstick, it gives them a false importance. There should be a seperation between actual competitive play and regular play, just like the LoL system that has been mentioned time and again. Persistant Stat Tracking is NOT this, it's always on 100% of the time no matter what you are doing, which is why I'm arguing against it.

[Imagine Dragons]

Well... I personally would be alright with persistent stat tracking... If that silly mod in WoT did not exist and also was never introduce it on MWO

I mean seriously, the only thing that mod does perfectly is prejudice the one using it at the beginning of the match.

However, the only thing I can see with the ranked/unranked modes is that when playerX has only played unranked since they started the game... and then decided to start playing ranked modes... the shock from the difference in skill level and playstyle might make his/her stats terrible...

I can see how such cases could be very rare...

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 13 June 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Skadi]

I say they add persistant stat tracking, but they also add a option if you want it to be public or not. Say a list of check boxes that say "Allow your friends to see?, Allow public to see?".

[Jade Dragoon]

Company of heroes had it so bad that if you had a low win-loss ratio then people wouldn't let you play with them.

[FlakAttack]

I would be much happier with keeping stats if they were only kept for a reasonable amount of time. Something like 3 months worth of stats is generally enough to see what kind of player you're dealing with. Otherwise, all those matches you have in new mechs (or just as a noob) count towards your totals, and that isn't really a fair or accurate way of judging people.

[Supremacist]

Of course there will be stat tracking, what a silly notion that there wont be.

The only time when there isnt one, is when no one is able to program it into the game, like some mods who focus on the game itself and have no time and no use for a stat tracker.

Am I going to be using stats to track the worth of a player? Yes until a time where its shown that its not a good indicator of skill.

[FactorlanP]

Fastred, on 13 June 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Actually I am more affraid of the ones that worry about their stats, because in my experience they are more likely to quit when the going gets tough than stick it out and try to overcome long odds. Yes its a generaliztion but I figure one more blanked statement based on ego would not be out of place in this thread.

I agree.

Persitant score tracking that is viewable to anyone WILL affect how the game is played.

They can track all the stats they want to track and nothing bad happens. But make all of those stats public, and suddenly a lot of egos get tied up into them. That always pushes players into "safer" playstyles, whether that means only driving the most powerful machines or running away at the first sign of disadvantage. The game changes.

So, I would be in favor of only putting up match stats at the end of a match... Or, if they are being tracked persistantly, that they only be viewable to you and not public. Or, allow the player to opt out of stat tracking completely or keep his stats private by choice.

Just my two C-Bills, take it for what it's worth...

Edited by FactorlanP, 13 June 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Frostiken]

Stats shouldn't be visible to anyone else.

Publicly viewable stats not only opens a moronic door where people on the forums will dig up your stats and then use the 'I have a higher KDR lol **** noob', but will make people play in a way that will benefit their stats.

With any form of stats this will happen, but when they're publicly available is becomes a more serious problem. People will play like cowards to not ruin their KDR. They will stack teams to get their WLR up. They will ignore doing what will benefit the team and go with what gets the most points to grind up their SPM. They will quit games and stack teams, they will hide when shot and suddenly appear to score the killing blow on an Atlas you battled for the last minute, they will ignore assisting you and instead run off because they get a medal if they kill just one more guy with SRMs this round.

Nothing good has ever come out of stat-tracking that is viewable by the public, and very little comes out of visible stats at all.

My opinion, stats should be visible only to PGI for game balance issues.

Edited by Frostiken, 13 June 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[BlindProphet]

Gigadouche, on 13 June 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

This is a point I've been trying to make throughout this thread. There are a lot of derps making replies that are all gung ho for being measured constantly. My only reasoning as to why they would actually want that is they have never actually been competitive in any game/sport or other activity ever in their lives, otherwise they would know there is a distinct difference in energy you put into something to play at a competitive level (i.e. your absolute best). If you were truly competitive at anything you would know that playing at that level requires a great deal more effort, thinking, and just overall energy from you, and can be quite stressful (but obviously rewarding in some way or else there would be no competitive games or sports). When these global metric stats are ALWAYS used as a go-to yardstick, it gives them a false importance. There should be a seperation between actual competitive play and regular play, just like the LoL system that has been mentioned time and again. Persistant Stat Tracking is NOT this, it's always on 100% of the time no matter what you are doing, which is why I'm arguing against it.

I've played a great number of different things in an competitive environment. Yes there is a difference between how I play a competitive match and just screwing around. Most of the time I end up somewhere in between the two. But if you had played anything competitively at a high level you'd also be quite aware that just because you're not playing at a competitive level of effort doesn't mean your skill goes away. And that skill still will regularly show up in your play. And that play will net you with above average stats. Unless you're going out to tank your stats and be generally worthless that is.

So assuming a player is skilled. They're going to end up with stats that reflect that in some way. A player who's bad is going to end up with stats that are bad. Its the way of things. And in this way stats are a good yard stick. They'll show you the general skill level on average the person displays in any given match. It gives you a launching point for questions, and areas of investigation. And so on and so forth....but you know i've stated that several times here...no need to repeat everything again.

[FactorlanP]

Frostiken, on 13 June 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Stats shouldn't be visible to anyone else.

Publicly viewable stats not only opens a moronic door where people on the forums will dig up your stats and then use the 'I have a higher KDR lol **** noob', but will make people play in a way that will benefit their stats.

With any form of stats this will happen, but when they're publicly available is becomes a more serious problem. People will play like cowards to not ruin their KDR. They will stack teams to get their WLR up. They will ignore doing what will benefit the team and go with what gets the most points to grind up their SPM. They will quit games and stack teams, they will hide when shot and suddenly appear to score the killing blow on an Atlas you battled for the last minute, they will ignore assisting you and instead run off because they get a medal if they kill just one more guy with SRMs this round.

Nothing good has ever come out of stat-tracking that is viewable by the public, and very little comes out of visible stats at all.

My opinion, stats should be visible only to PGI for game balance issues.

I agree completely.

If they ever introduce Solaris, then I believe that that would be the proper place to have public stats. I would even support a handicapping system, and a system to set odds for wagering on matches. But only on Solaris in the Arenas.

Edited by FactorlanP, 13 June 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Frostiken]

eldragon, on 13 June 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

PlayerA: "Bunch of people from the same clan on on the opposing team, I'm going to look for easier prey <PlayerAQuits Server>"

Actually, I don't know why you attributed this to stats.

Clan-stacking a pub is bullshit no matter how you try to justify it. I used to run a Natural-Selection server and if you didn't split your clan right down the middle across both teams, you all got banned for a week. Clan-stacking is nothing but a circle-jerk as your team on teamspeak easily stomps the clueless, disorganized noobs on the other. Then people flee the server en-masse and within two rounds the place is empty as people get tired of a 2 minute shotgun rush turned spawncamp.

Constant clan-stacking is one of the reasons I despise competitive players, 90% of them have massive inferiority complexes and even more massive attitude problems.

Edited by Frostiken, 13 June 2012 - 12:25 PM.