597 replies to this topic

[Thorn Hallis]

It's no news that some people are simply unable to formulate their opinion in a mature and helpful tone (not just on the internet). A developer should always stand above such things (which doesn't mean flaming or trolling should go unpunished). At least it IS some sort of criticism, and I think we can all agree there ARE things to critcize on MWO and/or some descisions from PGIGP, even for us that are not part of computer or gaming development.

Of course, repeating the same line over and over again isn't helpful and will just value down the respective opinion.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Kaijin, on 04 December 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

So a stock Awesome would have no ghost heat, but put 3 PPCs on a custom mech and you get ghost heat? Like that's not confusing.

I think he meant that 3ppc should not be a ghost heat issue kind of thing....

[Randall Flagg]

I like bacon.

Hope that helps..

[Sug]

Chronojam, on 25 November 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

What? Open Beta for Battlefield 4 started on October 4 and ended October 15.

That makes no sense...

How could a game possibly be in open beta for less than 2 years?

Galenit, on 29 November 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

This judical decision was made in a court proceeding of the Bundesgerichtshof.

New band name i call it!

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

well done PGI for destroying your business venture......by keeping silent and being covetous about what you are doing with the game you have really pissed off those that backed and founded your whole idea.

One thing is for sure the community doesn't and won't trust another word you say, well done on accomplishing something no other game developer has managed:-

To have the most outraged community in the history of pc gaming........

[Heffay]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 09 December 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

To have the most outraged community in the history of pc gaming........

Not even close.

[Blurry]

Heffay, on 09 December 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Not even close.

Think SWG is up there in dropping the ball. Tor also dropping da balls.
Sim City recently rings a bell.

But this is the only place I ever saw last call for refunds.

Diego Angelus, on 01 December 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

full of win

looks like GW2 - and that was funny!

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

lol heffay de-nile isnt just a river that runs through egypt.......



people have been asking for refunds on this game since closed beta, i have stuck it out this long because like a fool i believed what PGI were saying.........

hind sight is wonderful, because if i knew then what i know now i would not of spent a single $ on this game, in fact im very tempted to add this to my list of :-

How not to develope a game
How not to handle a community
How not to give deadlines
etc

its just a good idea handled by the wrong people.............simples.............

Edited by SiorAlpin Wolf, 09 December 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Heffay]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 09 December 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

lol heffay de-nile isnt just a river that runs through egypt.......

I can point to more recent examples of a far more pissed off player base.

Diablo 3
Battlefield 4

[Alaskan Nobody]

Heffay, on 09 December 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I can point to more recent examples of a far more pissed off player base.

Diablo 3
Battlefield 4

XBone DRM.....

[Koniving]

Tombstoner, on 04 December 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Ghost heat should have taken into consideration stock loadout's. if your running stock you dont suffer from any ghost heat regardless of configuration. This will eliminate any issues for new players not understanding what happening when they melt down. If however you decide to customize your mech then ghost heat comes into effect at 100%.

You assume that ghost heat actually impedes normal use of the Awesome's PPCs. It generally does not and is a thing to be ignored -- thusly demonstrating its failure.

Kaijin, on 04 December 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

So a stock Awesome would have no ghost heat, but put 3 PPCs on a custom mech and you get ghost heat? Like that's not confusing.

Everything about ghost heat is confusing and unnecessary. In Paul's own words: "In Battletech alpha strikes are rare maneuvers performed out of desperation."

They are rare because the heat is too high. And it would be with a threshold of 30 (lower than even a trial mech has on MWO, yet identical to what MW3 had for its 100% heat. Currently trial mechs get 40, 10 DHS 250 engine mechs get 50, after elite skills it becomes 60 for the exact same build, and the average custom mech reaches mid 80s with some able to reach the early 90s. Clan tech if implemented with the exact same DHS style would get thresholds as high as the 120s and still carry ER PPCs.)

It is important to note that by threshold I mean the heat you can build up whether instantly or over time before shutdown.

The basics: Let's take a 3 PPC Awesome with 15 DHS (tabletop heat neutral). In tabletop, you "never raise heat" when firing while stationary. Why? You cool the same number you heat up. But why is that? You make 30 heat (shutdown level) and then cool for 10 seconds. But you don't shut down, why is that? Ask yourself, did all 3 shots hit the same body part? Nope on that roll you hit an arm, a CT, and a leg. Odd, isn't it? What if you fired 1 shot at 0 seconds, another shot at 2 seconds, and another at 5 seconds?

Let's try it!

Spoiler

Awesome 8Q. 15 DHS (30 cooling per ten seconds, 3 cooling per second.). Standard tabletop 30 threshold. 3 PPCs. No movement, no map effects.
Turn begins.
0 seconds. Fire 1 PPC. Generate 10 heat. 33.33% threshold!
1 second. Cool 3. 7 heat left.
2 seconds. Cool 3. 4 heat left. At the same time fire 1 PPC, generate 10 heat. 14 heat. 46.667% threshold!
3 seconds. Cool 3. 11 heat left.
4 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 8 heat left.
5 seconds. Fire 1 PPC, generate 10 heat. 18 heat, cool 3 heat. 15 heat left. (50% threshold!)
6 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 12 heat left.
7 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 9 heat left.
8 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 6 heat left.
9 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 3 heat left.
10 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 0 heat left.

Well now, chain firing we are heat neutral. But an alpha strike in real time with this system?

Let's try it!

Spoiler

Awesome 8Q. 15 DHS (30 cooling per ten seconds, 3 cooling per second.). Standard tabletop 30 threshold. 3 PPCs. No movement, no map effects. ALPHA STRIKE!
Turn begins.
0 seconds. Fire 3 PPCs! 30 heat! "Heat level critical!" 100% threshold! Shutdown!
1 second. Cool 3. 27 heat left.
2 seconds. Cool 3. 24 heat left.
3 seconds. Cool 3. 21 heat left.
4 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 18 heat left.
5 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 15 heat left. (50% threshold!)
6 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 12 heat left.
7 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 9 heat left.
8 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 6 heat left.
9 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 3 heat left.
10 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 0 heat left. (0% threshold).

Welp, you shut down but you're cold again in 10 seconds, perfectly replicating the tabletop data without the one thing PGI added that screwed it all up.

...They added a rising threshold.

What would not having the threshold do? Well for one all PPC rigs couldn't fire more than 2 regular PPCs, and only 1 ER PPC by itself or with a laser or two safely. SRM rigs would sport fewer SRMs, but NOT because of some arbitrary limit; instead they would do it in the name of heat efficiency! After all a volley of 6 SRM-6s isn't worth it if you shut down every time you do it with a normal, non-confusing system.

The only real problem would be autocannons. But lower thresholds would fix even this by significantly reducing their usage time. The 6 AC/2 rig was essentially a joke compared to the much more efficient 4 AC/2 rig, correct? Welp with 30 threshold and 14 DHS, the 6 AC/2 rig would shut down in 5-ish seconds. Another 4-ish seconds if macro'd instead of alpha-fired. And the dual AC/20 rig? The full math of that is below.

But now for all those people saying that tabletop and MWO heat is the same, let's look at a real demonstration!

We are going to use NO PILOT SKILLS, as the disparity between tabletop and MWO gets even worse. Instead, this is 12 true DHS in MW3 / Tabletop style of raising exclusively cooling versus 12 DHS (10 true due to 250 engine and 2 1.4 imposters) in the MWO style of raising cooling + threshold. The weapon of choice is twin AC/20s. The rate of fire is that of MWO.

Spoiler

Here we go:
12 DHS = 24 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 seconds = 2.4 cooling per second. (MWO it is 10 * 2 + 2*1.4 = 22.8 for 10 seconds / 10 seconds = 2.28 cooling per second without skills assuming a 250 engine).
Maximum threshold is 30. (MWO it is 30 + 22.8 = 52.8 threshold That's a difference of more than 2 PPCs fired at once compared to MW3 right there.).
AC/20 produces 7 heat. 2 produce 14 heat (compared to MWO's AC/20 6 heat, with 2 being 12 heat).
Recycle rate is 4 seconds for this experiment. (MWO will remain at 4 seconds).

MW3: 2 AC/20s
0 seconds, fire. 14 heat. 46.67%.
1 seconds, cooled 2.4 (will occur every second) = 11.6. That's 38.66%.
2 seconds, 9.2. 30.67%.
3 seconds 6.8. 22.67%.
4 seconds 4.4. 14.67%. Fire. + 14 heat. 18.4. 61.33%.
5 seconds 16. 53.33%.
6 seconds 13.6. 45.33%
7 seconds 11.2. 37.33%.
8 seconds 8.8. 29.33%. Fire + 14 heat. 22.8. 76%.
9 seconds 20.4. 68%.
10 seconds 18. 60%.
11 seconds 15.6. 52%.
12 seconds. 13.2. 44%. Fire + 14 heat. 27.2. 90.67%.
13 seconds. 24.8. 82.67%
14 seconds. 22.4. 74.67%
15 seconds. 20. 66.67%.
16 seconds. 17.6. 58.67%. Fire + 14. 31.6. 105.33% = shutdown.

Shutdown in 16 seconds on a neutral heat map without moving.

Just for a comparison, that shutdown heat of 31.6 on MWO would be 59.848484848485% (or 59.85%) of threshold on your little heat bar. That's with AC/20s hotter than MWO, and that's all the heat you would have.

Now MWO without the ghost heat bandaid (called "heatscale.")
0 seconds. Fire. 12 heat.
1 second. Cooled 2.28 (will occur every second) = 9.72. 18.409%.
2 seconds. 7.44
3 seconds. 5.16
4 seconds. 2.88. 5.45(repeating)%. Fire. + 12 = 14.88. 28.18(repeating)%. (At this stage MW3 was at 61.33%).

For 8 seconds. 12 (0 seconds) + 12 (4 seconds) + 12 (8 seconds) - 18.24 cooled in 8 seconds = 17.76. 33.63(repeating)%.
For 16 seconds. 12 (0 seconds) + 12 (4 seconds) + 12 (8 seconds) + 12 (12 seconds) + 12 (16 seconds) - 36.48 cooling in 16 seconds = 23.52. 44.54(repeating)%.
For 24 seconds. 12 heat * 7 firings - 2.28 cooling * 24 seconds = 29.28 heat. 55.45(repeating)%.
For 32 seconds. 12 heat * 9 firings - 2.28 cooling * 32 seconds = 35.04 heat. 66.36(repeating)%.
For 56 seconds. 12 heat * 15 firings - 2.28 cooling * 56 seconds = 52.32 heat. 99.09(repeating)%. So close!
For 60 seconds. 12 heat * 16 firings - 2.28 cooling * 60 seconds = 55.2 heat. 104.54(repeating)%. Shutdown.

Quick comparison.
MW3 with more cooling, we shut down in 16 seconds without moving.
In MWO, with less cooling, we shut down in 60 seconds.

And that's before MWO's skills which after elites and 2x basics, increases cooling by 15% (2.28 cooling turns into 2.622) and threshold by 20% (52.8 turns into 63.36 threshold). So it'll take even longer! More than 16 seconds longer in fact.
But MW3 will always shutdown in 16 seconds with 12 DHS, and they're real 2.0s.

What if the MWO system had normal AC/20 heat? 7 heat per AC/20 * 2 = 14 heat * 16 firings - 2.28 cooling * 60 seconds = 87.2 heat. So when was shutdown?
Let's go back to when Mech3's shutdown occurred, 16 seconds. At 16 seconds, MWO with 7 heat per AC/20 (14 heat per salvo) we'd have 33.52 heat out of 52.8. That's 63.48(repeating)%. Compared to current non-ghost-heat 44.54%. Compared to MW3's 30 threshold, which is shutdown 105.33% heat in the same 16 seconds.
So again when would shutdown be for 7 heat per AC/20 in MWO's system with 12 DHS and 'no pilot skills'?
14 heat * 9 firings - 2.28 cooling * 32 seconds = 53.04 heat. 100.45(repeating)%. Shutdown at 32 seconds after firing with AC/20s at 7 heat in MWO's heat system.


So again...
Conditions: Map that doesn't affect heat.
12 DHS.
2 AC/20s fired at once.
No ghost heat.

Mechwarrior 3. Each AC/20 generates 7 heat. Shutdown in 16 seconds after hitting 105.33(repeating)%, which is 31.6 heat out of 30 threshold.

MWO. Each AC/20 generates 6 heat. Shutdown in 60 seconds after hitting 104.54(repeating)%, which is 55.2 out of 52.8 threshold (without any unlocks. It gets worse after them).

MWO, if each AC/20 generated 7 heat. Shutdown in 32 seconds after hitting 100.45(repeating)%, which is 53.04 heat out of 52.8 threshold.

Now do you see the difference? It's pretty doggone huge.
What's worse: If you compare MWO's system and Tabletop, MW3's heat can go back and forth with tabletop in 1 second time slices. MWO's cannot.
Check MWO heat with this. http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

What would very low (MW3, Battletech 1989, Tabletop, Battletech 1992/93 32 player simulator developed directly by FASA itself, original Mechwarrior 2 for the PC [changed to 40 with expansions and titanium editions]) thresholds of 30 mean for MWO aside from severely limited alpha striking capabilities akin with what Paul said it should have been according to Battletech lore? Why, quite simply,

• We would have mechs firing little more than 4 lasers at once.
  
• PPCs fired in chain fire.
  
• Pauses between firing that allow mechs to get into brawling range and FIGHT rather than hide in cover and sharp-shoot for one-shot kills.
  
• Builds would not be forced but literally choose on their own to begin using varied loadouts for different ranges.
  
• Alpha strike warrior would be severely reduced.
  
• Mechs would live longer.
  
• Mistakes could be made by players without resulting in instant death and eventual team defeat.
  
• Time could be used in the pauses of fire exchanges (for cooling off) to communicate or use the battlegrid to coordinate offenses to end ranged sharp-shooting stalemates.
  
• Lights would not be as disadvantaged, because their alpha strike limit and that of the Atlas would be identical; the difference is the Atlas would probably cool faster due to having more weight in heatsinks.
  
• Mediums -- who lack of the speed of lights, generally are on par with the size of heavies, and lack any real firepower, would now have a reason to play like mediums in 'getting in, hitting hard, running to cool' rather than 'stand still while the Atlas tears you apart' syndrome I often see.
  
• An end to LRM spammery, as even a 10 DHS mastered mech in MWO would literally see a 50% reduction in threshold. Instead of 60, it'd be 30 and thus they would have exactly half the firing time and thus half the spam and soon resulting in the very much needed LRM tweaks we've been waiting for.
  
• This list could go on til the end of time.

Now as for ghost heat's effectiveness... Lately I've noticed a trend of AC/40 Jagers that don't care and violate it anyway. I've noticed laser builds that run 4 LLs at the same time and do just fine which is a double violation of the 2 LL limit.. So I took out an Awesome 8Q and 3 PPCs.


Of the many videos I'm uploading this is the first one to finish, and thus it's here for your viewing pleasure.



The sadest irony?

3 PPCs at once = 30 heat = shutdown in MW3. Even this 'meta cheese' of the old days brought forth a new to spit in the face of ghost heat would not have been possible with the solution I presented on the very day ghost heat was announced long before it was implemented.

Well it'd be possible. The point is it would not be competitively viable anymore.

[Heffay]

Shar Wolf, on 09 December 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

XBone DRM.....

That's a fantastic example!

[Tombstoner]

Koniving, on 09 December 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

You assume that ghost heat actually impedes normal use of the Awesome's PPCs. It generally does not and is a thing to be ignored -- thusly demonstrating its failure.



Everything about ghost heat is confusing and unnecessary. In Paul's own words: "In Battletech alpha strikes are rare maneuvers performed out of desperation."

They are rare because the heat is too high. And it would be with a threshold of 30 (lower than even a trial mech has on MWO, yet identical to what MW3 had for its 100% heat. Currently trial mechs get 40, 10 DHS 250 engine mechs get 50, after elite skills it becomes 60 for the exact same build, and the average custom mech reaches mid 80s with some able to reach the early 90s. Clan tech if implemented with the exact same DHS style would get thresholds as high as the 120s and still carry ER PPCs.)

It is important to note that by threshold I mean the heat you can build up whether instantly or over time before shutdown.

The basics: Let's take a 3 PPC Awesome with 15 DHS (tabletop heat neutral). In tabletop, you "never raise heat" when firing while stationary. Why? You cool the same number you heat up. But why is that? You make 30 heat (shutdown level) and then cool for 10 seconds. But you don't shut down, why is that? Ask yourself, did all 3 shots hit the same body part? Nope on that roll you hit an arm, a CT, and a leg. Odd, isn't it? What if you fired 1 shot at 0 seconds, another shot at 2 seconds, and another at 5 seconds?

Let's try it!

Spoiler

Awesome 8Q. 15 DHS (30 cooling per ten seconds, 3 cooling per second.). Standard tabletop 30 threshold. 3 PPCs. No movement, no map effects.
Turn begins.
0 seconds. Fire 1 PPC. Generate 10 heat. 33.33% threshold!
1 second. Cool 3. 7 heat left.
2 seconds. Cool 3. 4 heat left. At the same time fire 1 PPC, generate 10 heat. 14 heat. 46.667% threshold!
3 seconds. Cool 3. 11 heat left.
4 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 8 heat left.
5 seconds. Fire 1 PPC, generate 10 heat. 18 heat, cool 3 heat. 15 heat left. (50% threshold!)
6 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 12 heat left.
7 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 9 heat left.
8 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 6 heat left.
9 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 3 heat left.
10 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 0 heat left.

Well now, chain firing we are heat neutral. But an alpha strike in real time with this system?

Let's try it!

Spoiler

Awesome 8Q. 15 DHS (30 cooling per ten seconds, 3 cooling per second.). Standard tabletop 30 threshold. 3 PPCs. No movement, no map effects. ALPHA STRIKE!
Turn begins.
0 seconds. Fire 3 PPCs! 30 heat! "Heat level critical!" 100% threshold! Shutdown!
1 second. Cool 3. 27 heat left.
2 seconds. Cool 3. 24 heat left.
3 seconds. Cool 3. 21 heat left.
4 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 18 heat left.
5 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 15 heat left. (50% threshold!)
6 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 12 heat left.
7 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 9 heat left.
8 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 6 heat left.
9 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 3 heat left.
10 seconds. Cool 3 heat. 0 heat left. (0% threshold).

Welp, you shut down but you're cold again in 10 seconds, perfectly replicating the tabletop data without the one thing PGI added that screwed it all up.

...They added a rising threshold.

What would not having the threshold do? Well for one all PPC rigs couldn't fire more than 2 regular PPCs, and only 1 ER PPC by itself or with a laser or two safely. SRM rigs would sport fewer SRMs, but NOT because of some arbitrary limit; instead they would do it in the name of heat efficiency! After all a volley of 6 SRM-6s isn't worth it if you shut down every time you do it with a normal, non-confusing system.

The only real problem would be autocannons. But lower thresholds would fix even this by significantly reducing their usage time. The 6 AC/2 rig was essentially a joke compared to the much more efficient 4 AC/2 rig, correct? Welp with 30 threshold and 14 DHS, the 6 AC/2 rig would shut down in 5-ish seconds. Another 4-ish seconds if macro'd instead of alpha-fired. And the dual AC/20 rig? The full math of that is below.

But now for all those people saying that tabletop and MWO heat is the same, let's look at a real demonstration!

We are going to use NO PILOT SKILLS, as the disparity between tabletop and MWO gets even worse. Instead, this is 12 true DHS in MW3 / Tabletop style of raising exclusively cooling versus 12 DHS (10 true due to 250 engine and 2 1.4 imposters) in the MWO style of raising cooling + threshold. The weapon of choice is twin AC/20s. The rate of fire is that of MWO.

Spoiler

Here we go:
12 DHS = 24 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 seconds = 2.4 cooling per second. (MWO it is 10 * 2 + 2*1.4 = 22.8 for 10 seconds / 10 seconds = 2.28 cooling per second without skills assuming a 250 engine).
Maximum threshold is 30. (MWO it is 30 + 22.8 = 52.8 threshold That's a difference of more than 2 PPCs fired at once compared to MW3 right there.).
AC/20 produces 7 heat. 2 produce 14 heat (compared to MWO's AC/20 6 heat, with 2 being 12 heat).
Recycle rate is 4 seconds for this experiment. (MWO will remain at 4 seconds).

MW3: 2 AC/20s
0 seconds, fire. 14 heat. 46.67%.
1 seconds, cooled 2.4 (will occur every second) = 11.6. That's 38.66%.
2 seconds, 9.2. 30.67%.
3 seconds 6.8. 22.67%.
4 seconds 4.4. 14.67%. Fire. + 14 heat. 18.4. 61.33%.
5 seconds 16. 53.33%.
6 seconds 13.6. 45.33%
7 seconds 11.2. 37.33%.
8 seconds 8.8. 29.33%. Fire + 14 heat. 22.8. 76%.
9 seconds 20.4. 68%.
10 seconds 18. 60%.
11 seconds 15.6. 52%.
12 seconds. 13.2. 44%. Fire + 14 heat. 27.2. 90.67%.
13 seconds. 24.8. 82.67%
14 seconds. 22.4. 74.67%
15 seconds. 20. 66.67%.
16 seconds. 17.6. 58.67%. Fire + 14. 31.6. 105.33% = shutdown.

Shutdown in 16 seconds on a neutral heat map without moving.

Just for a comparison, that shutdown heat of 31.6 on MWO would be 59.848484848485% (or 59.85%) of threshold on your little heat bar. That's with AC/20s hotter than MWO, and that's all the heat you would have.

Now MWO without the ghost heat bandaid (called "heatscale.")
0 seconds. Fire. 12 heat.
1 second. Cooled 2.28 (will occur every second) = 9.72. 18.409%.
2 seconds. 7.44
3 seconds. 5.16
4 seconds. 2.88. 5.45(repeating)%. Fire. + 12 = 14.88. 28.18(repeating)%. (At this stage MW3 was at 61.33%).

For 8 seconds. 12 (0 seconds) + 12 (4 seconds) + 12 (8 seconds) - 18.24 cooled in 8 seconds = 17.76. 33.63(repeating)%.
For 16 seconds. 12 (0 seconds) + 12 (4 seconds) + 12 (8 seconds) + 12 (12 seconds) + 12 (16 seconds) - 36.48 cooling in 16 seconds = 23.52. 44.54(repeating)%.
For 24 seconds. 12 heat * 7 firings - 2.28 cooling * 24 seconds = 29.28 heat. 55.45(repeating)%.
For 32 seconds. 12 heat * 9 firings - 2.28 cooling * 32 seconds = 35.04 heat. 66.36(repeating)%.
For 56 seconds. 12 heat * 15 firings - 2.28 cooling * 56 seconds = 52.32 heat. 99.09(repeating)%. So close!
For 60 seconds. 12 heat * 16 firings - 2.28 cooling * 60 seconds = 55.2 heat. 104.54(repeating)%. Shutdown.

Quick comparison.
MW3 with more cooling, we shut down in 16 seconds without moving.
In MWO, with less cooling, we shut down in 60 seconds.

And that's before MWO's skills which after elites and 2x basics, increases cooling by 15% (2.28 cooling turns into 2.622) and threshold by 20% (52.8 turns into 63.36 threshold). So it'll take even longer! More than 16 seconds longer in fact.
But MW3 will always shutdown in 16 seconds with 12 DHS, and they're real 2.0s.

What if the MWO system had normal AC/20 heat? 7 heat per AC/20 * 2 = 14 heat * 16 firings - 2.28 cooling * 60 seconds = 87.2 heat. So when was shutdown?
Let's go back to when Mech3's shutdown occurred, 16 seconds. At 16 seconds, MWO with 7 heat per AC/20 (14 heat per salvo) we'd have 33.52 heat out of 52.8. That's 63.48(repeating)%. Compared to current non-ghost-heat 44.54%. Compared to MW3's 30 threshold, which is shutdown 105.33% heat in the same 16 seconds.
So again when would shutdown be for 7 heat per AC/20 in MWO's system with 12 DHS and 'no pilot skills'?
14 heat * 9 firings - 2.28 cooling * 32 seconds = 53.04 heat. 100.45(repeating)%. Shutdown at 32 seconds after firing with AC/20s at 7 heat in MWO's heat system.


So again...
Conditions: Map that doesn't affect heat.
12 DHS.
2 AC/20s fired at once.
No ghost heat.

Mechwarrior 3. Each AC/20 generates 7 heat. Shutdown in 16 seconds after hitting 105.33(repeating)%, which is 31.6 heat out of 30 threshold.

MWO. Each AC/20 generates 6 heat. Shutdown in 60 seconds after hitting 104.54(repeating)%, which is 55.2 out of 52.8 threshold (without any unlocks. It gets worse after them).

MWO, if each AC/20 generated 7 heat. Shutdown in 32 seconds after hitting 100.45(repeating)%, which is 53.04 heat out of 52.8 threshold.

Now do you see the difference? It's pretty doggone huge.
What's worse: If you compare MWO's system and Tabletop, MW3's heat can go back and forth with tabletop in 1 second time slices. MWO's cannot.
Check MWO heat with this. http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

What would very low (MW3, Battletech 1989, Tabletop, Battletech 1992/93 32 player simulator developed directly by FASA itself, original Mechwarrior 2 for the PC [changed to 40 with expansions and titanium editions]) thresholds of 30 mean for MWO aside from severely limited alpha striking capabilities akin with what Paul said it should have been according to Battletech lore? Why, quite simply,

• We would have mechs firing little more than 4 lasers at once.
  
• PPCs fired in chain fire.
  
• Pauses between firing that allow mechs to get into brawling range and FIGHT rather than hide in cover and sharp-shoot for one-shot kills.
  
• Builds would not be forced but literally choose on their own to begin using varied loadouts for different ranges.
  
• Alpha strike warrior would be severely reduced.
  
• Mechs would live longer.
  
• Mistakes could be made by players without resulting in instant death and eventual team defeat.
  
• Time could be used in the pauses of fire exchanges (for cooling off) to communicate or use the battlegrid to coordinate offenses to end ranged sharp-shooting stalemates.
  
• Lights would not be as disadvantaged, because their alpha strike limit and that of the Atlas would be identical; the difference is the Atlas would probably cool faster due to having more weight in heatsinks.
  
• Mediums -- who lack of the speed of lights, generally are on par with the size of heavies, and lack any real firepower, would now have a reason to play like mediums in 'getting in, hitting hard, running to cool' rather than 'stand still while the Atlas tears you apart' syndrome I often see.
  
• An end to LRM spammery, as even a 10 DHS mastered mech in MWO would literally see a 50% reduction in threshold. Instead of 60, it'd be 30 and thus they would have exactly half the firing time and thus half the spam and soon resulting in the very much needed LRM tweaks we've been waiting for.
  
• This list could go on til the end of time.

Now as for ghost heat's effectiveness... Lately I've noticed a trend of AC/40 Jagers that don't care and violate it anyway. I've noticed laser builds that run 4 LLs at the same time and do just fine which is a double violation of the 2 LL limit.. So I took out an Awesome 8Q and 3 PPCs.



Of the many videos I'm uploading this is the first one to finish, and thus it's here for your viewing pleasure.



The sadest irony?

3 PPCs at once = 30 heat = shutdown in MW3. Even this 'meta cheese' of the old days brought forth a new to spit in the face of ghost heat would not have been possible with the solution I presented on the very day ghost heat was announced long before it was implemented.

Well it'd be possible. The point is it would not be competitively viable anymore.

Um No.. both You, PGI and other game devs dont understand the difference between instantaneous heat spikes and sustained accumulated undisapated heat. Meaning in TT you need to be at or above 30 heat for 10 seconds to trigger a shut down: at teh end of hte turn. It has nothing to do with chain fire or alpha striking.

The need for heat capasity origonates from that miss understanding. the reactor can hanndle heat spikes above 30, it cant handle a massive spike that 10 seconds of dissapation reduces heat to 30. it shut downs automaticly, if you override, it should melt down.

For example any mech with 4 ppcs and no heat sinks..... fire the ppcs any way you want and you have 40 heat with no way to disapate. the mech shuts down for safty. if you override you melt down and die.

if the mech had 15 true double HS then alpha 4 ppcs and you get a 40 heat spike and nothing happens.... over the cource of ten seconds 30 heat is disapated leaving 10 heat. do this again and your at 20,,, one more time you hit 30 accumulated heat. then you shut down automaticly.

What PGi didnt want to see happen is just pausing for a Few seconds and removing all heat..... this leaves a very small windo for cool shots and trivelises heat as a game mechanic.... only because PGI hasnt implimented movment, gunnery and ammo explotions for lower heat levels.... the only TT machanic in use is shut down..... this is a huge game balance whole.

What PGI has done comes from a lack of understanding TT and the desier to sell cool shots.

The whole heat system sucks IMO.

[Koniving]

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Um No.. both You, PGI and other game devs dont understand the difference between instantaneous heat spikes and sustained accumulated undisapated heat. Meaning in TT you need to be at or above 30 heat for 10 seconds to trigger a shut down: at teh end of hte turn. It has nothing to do with chain fire or alpha striking.

Actually I do. And fortunately so does PGI. This is why lasers as they heat up over time, generate a gradual heat spike. Missiles when split into volleys divide the intended heat over the amount of missiles fired so that while one launcher fires 20 LRMs and generates 6 heat, another fires 5, 5, 5, and 5 generating 1.5, 1.5, 1.5, and 1.5 heat.

PPCs in this game are an instantaneous heat spike. That is to say 1 PPC generates 10 heat instantly. Now if there was a build-up followed by deployment (akin to closed beta) then say 3 heat could build up gradually as the PPC charges and then 7 when the PPC fires, dampening the heat build up and thus softening it.

The calculations all given were, in fact, using entirely weapons with instant heat mechanics and thus accurate.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

The need for heat capasity origonates from that miss understanding. the reactor can hanndle heat spikes above 30, it cant handle a massive spike that 10 seconds of dissapation reduces heat to 30. it shut downs automaticly, if you override, it should melt down.

Reactors don't melt down in tabletop. It's fusion not fission; shutdown is an automatic response and there are no nuclear explosions. It requires a tremendous amount of power to fuse atoms together and thus unless a direct rupture occurs at the very instant that occurs there will not be a melt down. The result is as simple as pulling the battery from a toy.

The reactor does tolerate heat above 30. It does not, however, 'want to function' beyond the 30 threshold of 'safe operational limits' and thus shuts down. You begin suffering penalties at 5 heat, although this is only applied if that is 5 heat after 10 seconds of cooling due to summaries. In order to apply the heat you generated as punishment during the round, you'd have to go back and recycle the turn about 19 times over for every action you did to calculate the difference between where you wanted to be and where you wound up after all the actions took place. Tabletop simply omits that for obvious reasons. Instead the punishment of simply being heated up to 5 is distributed during an entire turn even though you generated 70 heat in that next turn and sunk 42. It's called "the summary" of a turn.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

For example any mech with 4 ppcs and no heat sinks..... fire the ppcs any way you want and you have 40 heat with no way to disapate. the mech shuts down for safty. if you override you melt down and die.

Actually, the 40 heat causes the pilot to lose consciousness. The mech shuts down. Without consciousness the bare minimum systems keeping the mech's balance to include the Gyro cease to function (as the gyro only kicks in when neural input from the pilot says its okay to use it), and the mech has about killed itself in falling over onto the ground. Of course some pilots have enough training that the neural inputs for balance can be maintained even when the pilot has lost consciousness or even simply the ability to be coherent. No, Luke, that is not your father you are simply hallucinating. Over time the environment would cool the mech depending on what the environment is. Of course, this is assuming the fall didn't result in the [Edit: mech's pilot] impaling himself on a metal rod or some other aspect of the cockpit or the severe trauma when his head smashes against the viewport. This is again, assuming, the pilot survived the raise in heat.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

if the mech had 15 true double HS then alpha 4 ppcs and you get a 40 heat spike and nothing happens.... over the cource of ten seconds 30 heat is disapated leaving 10 heat. do this again and your at 20,,, one more time you hit 30 accumulated heat. then you shut down automaticly.

You must remember. That's a 40 point heatspike, where the engine's normal safe operational limit is 30. What you have is not just 10 seconds of cooling, but you are firing at different intervals across 10 seconds. There is no alpha strike in tabletop. At all. You are putting 4 PPCs in a queue to fire one at a time.

This is important: Have you not noticed that when you try to do this in tabletop, you have to roll 4 separate times one for each PPC and get 4 different hits of 4 different locations that don't coincide with one another? Which can include a back and front of the same body part -- a feasibly impossible feat considering you think you fired them at once? Does this not strike you as a little strange if not impossible?

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

What PGi didnt want to see happen is just pausing for a Few seconds and removing all heat..... this leaves a very small windo for cool shots and trivelises heat as a game mechanic.... only because PGI hasnt implimented movment, gunnery and ammo explotions for lower heat levels.... the only TT machanic in use is shut down..... this is a huge game balance whole.

[Edit.] Before I continue, PGI had punishments for less than 100% heat. When the game started with 30 threshold and no minimum for heatsinks some mechs had 31 threshold, others had 40 threshold, and the most I seen was 45. The game was very fun. 101% heat would kill you instantly, thus making people afraid. Even more important was the fact that at 90% heat you had a random chance of shutting down. You could shut down at 91% heat, for example. Even more interesting was at 80% heat you started taking component damage. Heatsinks would melt. Ammo would explode causing the beloved popcorn sound of death as it spread through your mech and tore your limbs off without explanation. Even more precious was when actuators took damage and your aim was thrown off without any feasible reason.

But then people reported it all as bugs. Over and over, until punishments for heat were removed entirely before July 2012 even hit.

Now back to what you said. [/Edit.]

What you're describing as tabletop -- despite how untrue some of it is -- is what PGI put into MWO as the very misunderstanding you're demonstrating. What you must remember is that the Technical Readouts themselves state that an alpha strike is firing all weapons at once at a single point on the enemy. No matter what you do in tabletop, by the rules themselves, an alpha strike is impossible. You cannot meet the definition of an alpha strike without changing tabletop's rules. Your weapons are fired one at a time, in sequence, over 10 seconds with the 10 seconds of cooling happening. Incidentally all movement is also happening at the same time. Everything on both sides is supposedly occurring at the same time, in real time, .across 10 seconds.

Now for a moment, let's take your very example again. Mech with 4 PPCs fires. 40 heat. Has 15 DHS. Sinks 30 heat in 10 seconds, left with 10 heat.
What happens if we only allow 1 second?
Mech with 4 PPCs fires all at once. 40 heat. Has 15 DHS. Sunk 3 heat. 37 heat. Bring that to the summary limit of 30. 37 is higher than 30. Mech is at 127.33% heat. Shutdown.

Oh no, it shut down! And the only thing we changed was we took the 10 second turn and turned it into 1 second. And the sad thing is that even by your logic and reasoning this is still true and is undeniable.

I genuinely challenge you to prove me wrong in that regard.

I've asked many other people to prove me wrong and the funniest answer yet included "To get real time to go into tabletop you have to half weapon heat, double cooling and quadruple capacity," and after the lengthy explanation none of it worked and created something far worse than what we have where I could safely fire 30 PPCs at the same time and still not overheat.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

What PGI has done comes from a lack of understanding TT and the desier to sell cool shots.

Actually if they understood the heat system of tabletop, they would have even better sales of cool shots.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

The whole heat system sucks IMO.

I agree. The irony is the stuff you just preached is the MWO heat system, and the very reason we have ghost heat.

Now to what was said earlier. Yes, the reactor can handle 40 heat. But it cuts off at 30. In the many FASA-created (the original Battletech creators) video games your reactor cut off at 30. Some killed you at 45. Some (Mechwarrior 3) killed you at 60. MW2's updated expansions, PSX version (the source of the change) and Titanium edition allowed a limit of 40 for shutdown (as explained by those developers to "allow a more arcade-like combat experience"), also killed you at 60.

It wasn't until Microsoft got ahold of it that we got problems. There, Microsoft allowed a limit of "60" in Mechwarrior 4. That was 60 points of heat you had to generate before you shutdown. Boating went to an all new high, and battles became bouts of 6+ Clan ER Large Lasers doing instant 1-shot kills to one another. Worse? Some mechs didn't even shut down despite how they generated something like 9 to 11 heat per ER LL (more than is generated by PGI's ER LL! MORE heat and still perfectly viable where people whine of how unviable it is now!). There, you had to generate 120 heat to explode.

PGI's current system if unchecked, could allow a realistic 2 Clan ER PPC build to have 120 threshold between the Clan DHS (even if most of them are 1.4s) and pilot skills (Heat Containment at elite level increases threshold by 20%).

To paraphrase what you said, the heat system PGI has crafted from this misunderstanding sucks.

Edited by Koniving, 09 December 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Koniving, on 09 December 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

Now for a moment, let's take your very example again. Mech with 4 PPCs fires. 40 heat. Has 15 DHS. Sinks 30 heat in 10 seconds, left with 10 heat.
What happens if we only allow 1 second?
Mech with 4 PPCs fires all at once. 40 heat. Has 15 DHS. Sunk 3 heat. 37 heat. Bring that to the summary limit of 30. 37 is higher than 30. Mech is at 127.33% heat. Shutdown.

First if my response had any offensive edge to it i apologize. People are consistently linking the 30 heat limit with instantaneous heat spikes as whats causing shutdowns. its 30+ heat after the heat dissipation phase of one 10 second TT turn. For TT the sequence is move phase, fire phase, heat phase. all presumed to happen within the 10 seconds of a single turn. only at the end of the heat phase is the heat penalty applied for the following turn. That is my TT rules set from 1985. if its been updated via solaris or a tech update then its a matter of referring to the specific rules set. if that is the case then i am describing an apple and you an orange. We agree they are both round.

Linking the summery limit to a hard top of 30 is what your going wrong. That's only for the average undissipated heat over the course of 10 seconds. The heat in your example is 7 over the 30 limit for only one second triggering a shutdown. This is where people go off course. The hard limit would need to be recalculated in order to fit the change in time scale. it becomes a 300 heat limit for a 1 second interval, 150 for 2, 75 for 4 or 30 for ten seconds. 30 heat was an arbitrary limit chosen long ago, but it needs to scale with the time frame used.

Its a subtle but important mistake that PGI has missed for its heat system. Not adjusting the Heat limit to 300 for a 1 second summery frame/phase requires the addition of enhanced heat cap to fix the problem, so the 30 limit is raised vie bonuses and more hear sinks.

The same thing happened when PGI changed fire rates delinking them from 10 to 4 seconds for PPC's. Other variables where not corrected. fire rate went up for the phew phew factor, but heat and damage remained the same. this created a 250% increase in heat and damage. both damage and heat needed to be reduced from 10 to 10/4 or 2.5 heat/damage. Thus began PGI's decent into balancing hell. By changing 2 factor at the same time. way too much.

Edited by Tombstoner, 09 December 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[Koniving]

I didn't take any offense.

Tombstoner, on 09 December 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Its a subtle but important mistake that PGI has missed for its heat system. Not adjusting the Heat limit to 300 for a 1 second summery frame/phase requires the addition of enhanced heat cap to fix the problem, so the 30 limit is raised vie bonuses and more hear sinks.

That means at any second, I could fire 30 PPCs at once and would HAVE to do that in order to shut down. [Edit: In fact, I could not possibly shut down even doing then, as I'd have to fire 31 PPCs at once to shutdown successfully.] You do realize what that means, right? The absolute oppposite of dealing with the problem, you've enabled the worst boating incident in the history of the series.

You must remember that in real time, every second is a 1 second interval. Also, in NO Battletech board game of ANY sort does the threshold go up. In fact, in the only one that uses a less than 10 second time slice, actually ~lowers~ the permitted threshold as well. I refer to the Solaris 7 game, which brings the threshold I believe down to 7.5.

Lets take what you said into account here.
Tabletop is now a 1 second turn. You have 15 DHS. You cool 30 heat per 10 seconds / 10 = 3 heat per second.
You can generate up to 300 heat before shutdown.

...When, if ever, do you shut down? How many turns can you fire 15 PPCs at once? I am sorry if this sounds mean as it isn't intended but do you even realize the mathematical logical fallacy you just created?

Let's try to shut down. Remember the rules as above, given by you...

We generate 150 heat per turn, firing 150 damage each turn, and cool by only 3. 150 - 3. Turn 1 ends with 147 heat left over, less than 50% threshold. It'd require 3 turns to completely shut down with 15 DHS, 3 seconds, but we've managed 450 damage in those 3 seconds.

I'd like you to sit for a moment and honestly think about that for a second. Sit down and do a little bit of math.

Edited by Koniving, 09 December 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Koniving, on 09 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Tabletop is now a 1 second turn. You have 15 DHS. You cool 30 heat per 10 seconds / 10 = 3 heat per second.
You can generate up to 300 heat before shutdown.

...When, if ever, do you shut down? How many turns can you fire 15 PPCs at once? I am sorry if this sounds mean as it isn't intended but do you even realize the mathematical logical fallacy you just created?

Let's try to shut down. Remember the rules as above, given by you...

We generate 150 heat per turn, firing 150 damage each turn, and cool by only 3. 150 - 3. Turn 1 ends with 147 heat left over, less than 50% threshold. It'd require 3 turns to completely shut down with 15 DHS, 3 seconds, but we've managed 450 damage in those 3 seconds.

I'd like you to sit for a moment and honestly think about that for a second. Sit down and do a little bit of math.

Your still confusing the instantaneous limit(created by PGI) modified by game stats&heatsinks vs. the TT 10s undissipated accumulated limit. TT doesn't care about instantaneous, it's all assumed to be whats left over after 10 seconds. PGI invented the Instantaneous limit when it translated from TT to real time. They like everyone else divided the time frames into 1 second units and then tried to rationalize how mechs with 4'ppc didn't just fire once and shut down. they miss applied the max 30 heat concept. it became 30+ heat in 1 second = shut down. that needed fixing and heat cap was born.

It should be 30 extra that cant be dissipated in a 10 second window that causes the shut down. recalculating the max limit to 300 mean that you would need massive heat spikes to cause a shut down. This doesn't change the 30 heat limit left over after 10 seconds of dissipation. They are two distinctly different things.

If you truly made TT turns one second from your example you would need to rescale heat dissipation rates. 1 TT HS dissipated 1 heat in 10 seconds. changing the turn to 1 second compresses everything and heat dissipation become 10 heat per heat sink. damage/ heat also scales so 1 ppc must be 100 heat/damage and also armor. when you change the time frame of a dependent system you must rescale all other elements in the system accordingly.

what should be shown on the heat bar is the mechs heat after 10 seconds. assuming nothing changes. what is shown is the current heat level with a max limit thats different for everyone. Under PGI system with no heat cap modification a 4ppc mech it would have a 40 heat spike and auto shutdown. when in fact the heat indicator should be 0.

in classic TT the awesome had 28 single heat sinks 3 ppc's

PGI rules as i understand them - heat cap is 30 28 HS dissipation 2.8/sec standing still no other modifiers
Time - action - heat
0 alpha - 30 shutdown???
1 27.2
2 24.2
3 21.6
4 alpha 48.8 shut down due to spike
hence the need for increacing the heat cap if used incorectly

TT - same conditions and dissipation. criteria for shut down max 30 undisapated after 10 seconds
Time(s) - action - un disapated heat
0 alpha - 2
140 alpha - 30

So 14 turns of continous fire ( 10 seonds turns) why casue the awsome paid for it it tonnage.

Remember that PGI buffed damage and heat to 250% of TT valuse by changing fire rates and did not adjust disapation rates heat /damage ratios. ppc heat/damage should be 2.5 to match TT for comparison using PGI's fire rates every 4 seonds vs every 10 seconds.

All damage, heat values and disapation rates are FUBAR and it stated the first time they changed fire rates. 2 years ago.

Koniving, on 09 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Remember the rules as above, given by you... We generate 150 heat per turn, firing 150 damage each turn, and cool by only 3. 150 - 3. Turn 1 ends with 147 heat left over, less than 50% threshold. It'd require 3 turns to completely shut down with 15 DHS, 3 seconds, but we've managed 450 damage in those 3 seconds. I'd like you to sit for a moment and honestly think about that for a second. Sit down and do a little bit of math.

Your still confusing the instantaneous limit(created by PGI) modified by game stats&heatsinks vs. the TT 10s undissipated accumulated limit. TT doesn't care about instantaneous, it's all assumed to be whats left over after 10 seconds. PGI invented the Instantaneous limit when it translated from TT to real time. They like everyone else divided the time frames into 1 second units and then tried to rationalize how mechs with 4'ppc didn't just fire once and shut down. they miss applied the max 30 heat concept. it became 30+ heat in 1 second = shut down. that needed fixing and heat cap was born.

It should be 30 extra that cant be dissipated in a 10 second window that causes the shut down. recalculating the max limit to 300 mean that you would need massive heat spikes to cause a shut down. This doesn't change the 30 heat limit left over after 10 seconds of dissipation. They are two distinctly different things.

If you truly made TT turns one second from your example you would need to rescale heat dissipation rates. 1 TT HS dissipated 1 heat in 10 seconds. changing the turn to 1 second compresses everything and heat dissipation become 10 heat per heat sink. damage/ heat also scales so 1 ppc must be 100 heat/damage and also armor. when you change the time frame of a dependent system you must rescale all other elements in the system accordingly.

what should be shown on the heat bar is the mechs heat after 10 seconds. assuming nothing changes. what is shown is the current heat level with a max limit thats different for everyone. Under PGI system with no heat cap modification a 4ppc mech it would have a 40 heat spike and auto shutdown. when in fact the heat indicator should be 0.

in classic TT the awesome had 28 single heat sinks 3 ppc's

PGI rules as i understand them - heat cap is 30 28 HS dissipation 2.8/sec standing still no other modifiers
Time - action - heat
0 alpha - 30 shutdown???
1 27.2
2 24.2
3 21.6
4 alpha 48.8 shut down due to spike
hence the need for increacing the heat cap if used incorectly

TT - same conditions and dissipation. criteria for shut down max 30 undisapated after 10 seconds
Time(s) - action - un disapated heat
0 alpha - 2
140 alpha - 30

So 14 turns of continous fire ( 10 seonds turns) why casue the awsome paid for it it tonnage.

Remember that PGI buffed damage and heat to 250% of TT valuse by changing fire rates and did not adjust disapation rates heat /damage ratios. ppc heat/damage should be 2.5 to match TT for comparison using PGI's fire rates every 4 seonds vs every 10 seconds.

All damage, heat values and disapation rates are FUBAR and it stated the first time they changed fire rates. 2 years ago.

Edited by Tombstoner, 09 December 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

The public have spoken out about this game on the MetaCritic website:-

Players gave this game a score of 5.3 out of 10
Magazine critics gave MWO a score of 66 out of 100

user reviews:-
226 gave positive feedback
89 had mixed feelings about the game
338 gave negative feedback

Critic reviews:-
2 gave positive feedback
7 had mixed feelings about the game
0 gave negative

All this leads to the question.....

Why are the Dev's Burying their heads in the sand?
Why are they still being Covetous about whats going on?
Why are they still prioritizing mech and other sales over fixing the game?
Why have they stone walled the community and continue to do so?

Because they are not interested in the game, the only interest they seem to portray is getting as much money out of the community as possible.
Because the only thing they seem to tell the community are Innuendo's when they can actually be bothered to inform the community.

No more Innuendo's, No more grabbing at the coin, No more delays.

This community deserves to be told the truth about the current state of development especially those that have invested real money into the game, i know for a fact that alot of people have paid well over the odds for any AAA listed game. If the dev's want to win back the backers and the community as a whole then they need to start being transparent and honest to the people that are paying their wages.

[Heffay]

SiorAlpin Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

The public have spoken out about this game on the MetaCritic website:-

Players gave this game a score of 5.3 out of 10
Magazine critics gave MWO a score of 66 out of 100

BF4 got a 4 out of 10 from Polygon. So what we can take from this is MWO is far better than BF4.

[SiorAlpin Wolf]

why do you keep relating to BF4? ( i can only assume you got stung by it, the same way alot of people got stung by the Dev's in MWO )

We are talking about MWO and the fact that people bought into it under the promise of delivering certain ingame features before Public Release, of which the Dev's have NOT delivered.

The fact is i kinda get the feeling that things like UI2 and Community Warfare are just things that they use to keep players logging in and playing, so they can keep their figures up and hope that the new players buy stuff and the die hard T/T fans keep buying stuff. But im hearing more and more people saying that they are not willing to spend any more money on the game.

It seems that the only way to get PGI to listen is to stop buying the stuff they are trying to sell, in simple terms they will be forced into a corner and will have to make some serious decisions, they cant shut the servers down unless they refund people,
(without reading all the legal jargon which i have saved from closed beta, i dont think they can )
well they can but it will be very messy and they will have angry mobs banging at the door with lawyers and pitch forks, or they fix the problems with the game, release the content they promised and rebuild relations with the community and re-gain some trust.
Personally i would prefer they do the latter without there being anymore ambiguity between the Dev's and the community, please dont get me mistaken for someone who hates the Dev's and the game because that couldnt be further from the truth, i think the game has a lot of potential in the right hands, and that's the problem right there.