195 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

This is just more of how you as an individual performs with X mech. I don't know what else you want me to be reading into you personal stats.

You could start by explaining how the supposedly broken, borked hit-detection, should-be-disabled-or-removed it's-so-hard-to-kill Spider has equal or worse deaths per match stats than any of my other lights?

[Shadey99]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

I've called the Spider the 'Centurion of lights' on quite a number of occasions, so I'll second that observation.

I'm hoping if we repeat it enough some of the Spider haters may start to understand the context...

[stjobe]

Shadey99, on 09 October 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

I'm hoping if we repeat it enough some of the Spider haters may start to understand the context...

Don't hold your breath

[Ghogiel]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

You could start by explaining how the supposedly broken, borked hit-detection, should-be-disabled-or-removed it's-so-hard-to-kill Spider has equal or worse deaths per match stats than any of my other lights?

Based on your stats alone? The non complete stats missing W/L etc, to compare to the fact that statically at least ~81% of games that are lost result in death anyway? While ignoring video evidence and the fact that hit detection can be quite bad?

No sorry I'll pass.

Edited by Ghogiel, 09 October 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

You could start by explaining how the supposedly broken, borked hit-detection, should-be-disabled-or-removed it's-so-hard-to-kill Spider has equal or worse deaths per match stats than any of my other lights?

You might just not be a good spider pilot - every mech doesn't work for every person. I wouldn't take your personal performance as anything more than a component of a whole. One person is far from a statistically valid sample size.

[stjobe]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Based on your stats alone? The non complete stats missing W/L etc, to compare to the fact that statically at least ~81% of games that are lost result in death anyway? While ignoring video evidence and the fact that hit detection can be quite bad?

No sorry I'll pass.

Let me be clear that I don't argue that there's no hit detection or hit box issues - there is, to deny that would be foolish. What I'm trying to argue is that the Spider isn't more or less "broken" in this regard than any other 'mechs, and the stats I gave, while incomplete, at least suggest that I'm not dying less in a Spider than in a Commando - which at least I would think would be the case if the Spider was as broken as this thread and others argue.

Fierostetz, on 09 October 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

You might just not be a good spider pilot - every mech doesn't work for every person. I wouldn't take your personal performance as anything more than a component of a whole. One person is far from a statistically valid sample size.

Sure that might be it, but as I argued in another post against the same claim - is it not fascinating that I've managed to apply 1000+ drops worth of experience in Commandos (0.42-0.53 D/M) to one Spider (5D - 0.42 D/M) but not the other (5K - 0.59 D/M), and that they also neatly bracket my medium D/M stats (0.42 - 0.59 D/M)?

Isn't it also very fascinating that for a 'mech that is supposedly so broken it needs to be taken out of the game it doesn't have a significantly lower deaths per match rating than other, non-broken 'mechs?

And on the statistically valid sample argument - no, of course I'm not representative of the population as a whole, but I've given deaths per match stats that cover 545 light matches and 390 medium matches spread over five light chassis and four medium chassis, and the spread for deaths per match is 0.42 - 0.59 - exactly the averages for my 5D and 5K respectively.

[Ghogiel]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

What I'm trying to argue is that the Spider isn't more or less "broken" in this regard than any other 'mechs, and the stats I gave, while incomplete, at least suggest that I'm not dying less in a Spider than in a Commando - which at least I would think would be the case if the Spider was as broken as this thread and others argue.

They don't even suggest that and here is why> They are incomplete without seeing the W/L.

It would be impossible to come near that conclusion because statistically you will die no matter what mech you are riding in at least 81%* of the matches that you lose.

*iirc it was 19% of matches end in caps. So there is a chance that you don't die in those matches.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Why is this thread even going on? There are multiple videos from the training grounds that show spiders have serious hit box issues. Combine that with their size, and it is no wonder they take so long to die. Are they impossible to kill? No... Do they take more damage than they should to kill? Yes, due to the CT hitbox issues.

and if you would pay attention you would not quotes from pgi in regards to a big part of those 'hitbox' issues which in reality are NOT HITBOX issues. So in short, the thread continues because as demonstrated a large portion insist on creating and commenting on balance when they have to clue what is going on and make no effort to find out before putting in their .02c

Edited by Mehlan, 09 October 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Sandpit]

It still astounds me how anyone would think that an entire mech model should just be taken away from those who have purchased it (not to mention the hero mech) lol

Let's take out all the weapons that are out of balance while we are at it. Well since collisions don't work let's take out movement as well. Let's not forget about heat either so we should just take out any weapon systems that generate heat until that's completely balanced as well. Do you see how ridiculous a blanket statement like that sounds now when it's applied to other aspects?

[Rauchsauger]

Sandpit, on 09 October 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

It still astounds me how anyone would think that an entire mech model should just be taken away from those who have purchased it (not to mention the hero mech) lol
[...]

It is perfectly fine to remove broken elements from a game. It is done all the time in LoL for example that a champion is disabled because of a bug. Also they are not taken away... They are disabled until the issue is resolved. That also helps to resolve things faster because there is more pressure. But since that Problem is not limited to one mechtype that could be a but difficult.

[Sandpit]

Rauchsauger, on 09 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

It is perfectly fine to remove broken elements from a game. It is done all the time in LoL for example that a champion is disabled because of a bug. Also they are not taken away... They are disabled until the issue is resolved. That also helps to resolve things faster because there is more pressure. But since that Problem is not limited to one mechtype that could be a but difficult.

Right, so a player who has 4 spiders (don't scoff it's highly plausible in this game) and no extra mechbays would do what exactly while it was pulled out of game?

[Clit Beastwood]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Let me be clear that I don't argue that there's no hit detection or hit box issues - there is, to deny that would be foolish. What I'm trying to argue is that the Spider isn't more or less "broken" in this regard than any other 'mechs, and the stats I gave, while incomplete, at least suggest that I'm not dying less in a Spider than in a Commando - which at least I would think would be the case if the Spider was as broken as this thread and others argue.


Sure that might be it, but as I argued in another post against the same claim - is it not fascinating that I've managed to apply 1000+ drops worth of experience in Commandos (0.42-0.53 D/M) to one Spider (5D - 0.42 D/M) but not the other (5K - 0.59 D/M), and that they also neatly bracket my medium D/M stats (0.42 - 0.59 D/M)?

Isn't it also very fascinating that for a 'mech that is supposedly so broken it needs to be taken out of the game it doesn't have a significantly lower deaths per match rating than other, non-broken 'mechs?

And on the statistically valid sample argument - no, of course I'm not representative of the population as a whole, but I've given deaths per match stats that cover 545 light matches and 390 medium matches spread over five light chassis and four medium chassis, and the spread for deaths per match is 0.42 - 0.59 - exactly the averages for my 5D and 5K respectively.

I reread my reply and if I came across as combative or insulting I apologize; the brevity of my reply was intended to convey a casual tone, not a dismissive one. I have 1126 drops in a Spider 5d, with [color=#EEEEEE]4 days 17:30:14[/color] of seat time in it, with a 1.3x WLR. The SDR experience certainly did not translate into commandos for me, though I have great success with Jenners and Ravens.

Different mechs for different people would be my post summary.

edited because I've had too much caffeine and rambled for a huge paragraph.

Edited by Fierostetz, 09 October 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Sandpit, on 09 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Right, so a player who has 4 spiders (don't scoff it's highly plausible in this game) and no extra mechbays would do what exactly while it was pulled out of game?

I have 6 spiders :shrug: I hate making my team wait while I rebuild, so I keep 'em all kitted out for various roles.
Spotting + Combat = SDR5d with tag, ml, erll and adv seismic, sensor range, and uav.
Spotting only = (12man only) SDR5v with 12jj, tag, mpl, all the good spotting modules (and I stay with an ECM mech at all times)
Combat 1 = SDR5d with LL and 2ML, 2jj, adv seismic, target info gathering (great for killin in a hurry
Combat 2 = SDR5d with 3MPL and adv seismic, target info gathering (great for killin in a hurry!), and coolshot
Drunk! = 5k LPL 4mg's
Fun! = SDR-5k with uac5

[Jonal]

Sandpit, on 09 October 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Right, so a player who has 4 spiders (don't scoff it's highly plausible in this game) and no extra mechbays would do what exactly while it was pulled out of game?

Trial Mechs.

[sokitumi]

stjobe, on 09 October 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

A Spider that's "frontlining the whole game" isn't going to survive to the end. That's the cold, hard truth.

You either get to be the front-line fighter OR the chase-the-squirrel single survivor, not both.

Let's just be clear here. How often is it chase-the-jenner or chase-the-commando at the end? Exactly... rarely at best. Come on man you can't be that thick to not see SDR's as bugged.

[Shadey99]

sokitumi, on 09 October 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Let's just be clear here. How often is it chase-the-jenner or chase-the-commando at the end? Exactly... rarely at best. Come on man you can't be that thick to not see SDR's as bugged.

I've seen 'chase the commando/jenner' plenty... I've even seen 'chase the catapult' (sniper C1 with all long range energy weapons). That said I've been the firebrand of a 'chase the firebrand' ending of a game more than once.

Surviving til the end is typically a game of staying almost totally unnoticed. Combine ECM with maximum capped speed and jumpjets on a small mech which is good at distributing damage and you get a clear reason why that can be so easy... That high ping players are harder to hit with HSR (across all mechs) only makes this more common.

[Sandpit]

Jonal, on 09 October 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Trial Mechs.

Oh, ok, well that makes sense. Force a player to use nothing but trial mechs after they've played with and bought 4 custom mechs? You really don't see an issue with any of these ideas?

[Mehlan]

sokitumi, on 09 October 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Let's just be clear here. How often is it chase-the-jenner or chase-the-commando at the end? Exactly... rarely at best. Come on man you can't be that thick to not see SDR's as bugged.

It depends if I'm running a Dk, jenner or spider.... and wether I was playing cap monkey, scouting, cap defense or felt the need to play distraction/chew toy for my side to push (which usually leaves me a smoking pile)

[sokitumi]

Mehlan, on 09 October 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

It depends if I'm running a Dk, jenner or spider.... and wether I was playing cap monkey, scouting, cap defense or felt the need to play distraction/chew toy for my side to push (which usually leaves me a smoking pile)

Stop being dumb Mehlan. I'm not talking about you or tactics that result in xyz. It's a straight forward observation that a large percent of games end in chase-the-sdr.... they rarely end in chase-the-(other)light. It's soooo obvious how can you deny this simple fact. As to what's causing it... thats a circus of arguments i'd rather not get into with kids when they can't even admit simple observable truths.

Edited by sokitumi, 09 October 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

sokitumi, on 09 October 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Stop being dumb Mehlan. I'm not talking about you or tactics that result in xyz. It's a straight forward observation that a large percent of games end in chase-the-sdr.... they rarely end in chase-the-(other)light. It's soooo obvious how can you deny this simple fact. As to what's causing it... thats a circus of arguments i'd rather not get into with kids when they can't even admit simple observable truths.

It could be the combo of ECM and jumpjets, too. A com-2d is pretty decent with all it streaks, etc. but once anyone pays attention they usually die quickly - they just can't get away like it could with jumpjets. Jenners are able to fly, but no ECM. Spiders have jets and ECM, both are *huge* contributors towards survivability... and the spider is the only light with both.