1251 replies to this topic

[yashmack]

N0MAD, on 26 September 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Well lets clear that up as its a point often made.
The game was basically already made, as in they didnt need imagination, the story line was there, the weapons, the mechs, it was all provided. The time Developers need in creating a game is actually creating, you know imagining a universe a concept, creating New vehicles, weapons, scenarios, art. None of this was required, hell even the art, Mechs were already pre designed, the artist really only needed to copy existing ideas and models.
So as far as time goes they were able to bypass the time thats called the concept stage.
They had the concept, the story, the art, the engine, and over 2 years, and this is what we have.
Great job.

you live in the most amazing fantasy world ive ever seen...

[Deathlike]

Arrachtas, on 26 September 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Star Citizen makes promise after promise.

What's going to happen when they break one (or more)? They will.

Star Wars: The Old Republic had nearly $300,000,000 in funding, BioWare, and the Star Wars IP. It had fantastic interviews, updates, information, trailers, and made a TONNE of promises that looked like they would be supported.

The game went F2P within months and was hemorrhaging tens of thousands of people per week.

Let us not point to games that make flashy promo vids and promises and believe with utter conviction that they will come true. I dearly hope that nobody is so naiive.

Until Star Citizen's money tracker thing is shrinking because of some serious squabble, I'll believe it'll be fine, unlike the Project Phoenix counter that has no numbers.

[MischiefSC]

Arrachtas, on 26 September 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Star Citizen makes promise after promise.

What's going to happen when they break one (or more)? They will.

Star Wars: The Old Republic had nearly $300,000,000 in funding, BioWare, and the Star Wars IP. It had fantastic interviews, updates, information, trailers, and made a TONNE of promises that looked like they would be supported.

The game went F2P within months and was hemorrhaging tens of thousands of people per week.

Let us not point to games that make flashy promo vids and promises and believe with utter conviction that they will come true. I dearly hope that nobody is so naiive.

Here's the difference.

There have already been some hiccups - which were handled immediately, intelligently and to the absolute satisfaction of the game community. The difference really is in how the community is treated and what sort of community that engenders. Players prod each other to spend more money on the game. Will that change at some point? Possibly, but CR has given no reason to suspect that. In fact he's been very careful in his promises. Was very, very slow to call the game an 'MMO' until after he'd hired enough new people with the right skills to ensure he met it.

From day 1 CR and Cloud Imperium Games (the whole dev staff) have been very up-front about what they're doing and why. They've already made tons of promises.

Which they then kept. Every single one. Content release dates, forum features, community polls that are acted upon, responses to tough questions (such as about 3PV and PvP) that may not have been what people wanted to hear but were honest and direct. They put in whatever hours or whatever cost was required to make those deadlines and keep those promises. When mistakes get made they are fast to apologize and transparent in discussing what happened, what they learned from it and what lessons they took from it to ensure it's not happening again.

That's why they're still getting money thrown at them. Again, it's not simply the product. It's not even the promise of the product. It's how they sell it and how they treat the people who are giving them money. This concept is played out repeatedly in a dozen industries every day. Businesses that invest in competent consumer management and the energy in customer service (whatever that looks like for your business) reap a lot of profit from it in the digital age of blogs, forums and facebook. Those that don't get unreasonable amounts of rage thrown at them and an exponentially steeper loss in opportunity cost.

Love it or hate it SC is going to get a lot of love for a good long time. The only reason to hate that is in how its community management and how it treats its consumers is going to affect their expectations. Growing total gamer consumers is only a benefit to every other games market. Not taking advantage of that is just silly. Saying 'I'm not doing it if P-Diddy did it' is just shooting yourself in the foot. A smart business, in any market, identifies and replicates those practices that generate more revenue for little or no cost.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

People are always looking to the next best thing, and continue to swallow hype. If you want to swallow what Roberts is spooning you, all the power to you.

I'm an investor in SC, myself. Quite a lot of money, actually. I also hold absolutely no fantasy that what is promised is what we'll get, either in terms of shape, form, or time. No game ever delivers, and yet every time 'the next big thing' appears on the horizon, people are throwing their money at it and believing everything.

If we really want to compare a game in Alpha with several times (actually more) of the operating budget that PGI has, fine. It's like comparing a body-builder to some cocky highschool football player.

This game is good for what it is, and only stands to get better. For people throwing 'zeros' at it, they're not using fact to substantiate the number, they're just using venom.

[MischiefSC]

Arrachtas, on 26 September 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

People are always looking to the next best thing, and continue to swallow hype. If you want to swallow what Roberts is spooning you, all the power to you.

I'm an investor in SC, myself. Quite a lot of money, actually. I also hold absolutely no fantasy that what is promised is what we'll get, either in terms of shape, form, or time. No game ever delivers, and yet every time 'the next big thing' appears on the horizon, people are throwing their money at it and believing everything.

If we really want to compare a game in Alpha with several times (actually more) of the operating budget that PGI has, fine. It's like comparing a body-builder to some cocky highschool football player.

This game is good for what it is, and only stands to get better. For people throwing 'zeros' at it, they're not using fact to substantiate the number, they're just using venom.

I don't compare SC and MW:O, though I do compare how they treat their respective communities. I agree completely that SC has tools going in that were not available to PGI. In community management though that's another issue.

Currently MW:O is around a 3-7 depending on how much you enjoy this sort of grind. Tempering that vote based on how PGI has dealt with 'where the game is going' though isn't unreasonable - in many ways MW:O is sold on the promises of what it will be (U.I 2! CW! Rainbows, puppies and kittens!) and as such someones opinion of PGI is relevant to their view of reviewing the game. The point of a game review is to advise others of what someone who has played the game already feels about it so they can then parse that information into something useful (or not) to make their own decision.

Pro reviews are no less twitchy than player reviews. Many player reviews and many critic reviews are worthless. You read a ton, find ones that make sense or seem better thought out and you use them to make a decision. While I didn't give MWO a 0 or a 10 I'm not going to judge someone else for doing so. Interestingly I find the total number of reviews a good thing - it means there are a lot of people passionate about the game. I just find it so unfortunate that PGIs response to that passion is to explain that they're not the target market and that PGI would rather not have to deal with them. Back to those opportunity costs....

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 26 September 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Within 6 months for all 3 phases.

So tell me how this is any different from the "90 days of open beta" promise given two years ago? I have been challenging anyone to show me one single piece of content added to this game that doesn't involve a mech or map or mc feature. One single piece of content that add any depth to the actual gameplay. If you cannot see why many are so cynical and frustrated due to this then you really are being exceptionally close-minded. Most of the ones championing this game right now are saying the exact same things many of us were saying two years ago after things began to be delayed. There's nothing wrong with having faith but in order to sustain faith you better either deliver or walk on water and turn said water to wine. Since I don't see anyone performing miracles I'll assume divine intervention isn't coming any time soon

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Too much is being made of "not the target market". People are selectively interpreting a single line to mean that hardcore/Founder/whatever people don't matter. That's total {Scrap}. Community Warfare wouldn't even be in planning if that was true, because Joe Casual sure as hell (for the most part) won't care about something that requires discipline and investment.

As with most PvP games, one makes one's own content. There are a host of great tournaments and leagues out there as well as a great deal of organized, friendly, and skilled 12-man teams that fight each other regularly. When we get 'real' CW in a few months, even better.

If MW:O is guilty of anything, it's in taking too long to push things out, which (again) is understandable given budgets and developer team size. Did you see the tweeted picture of their developer team at their launch party? It's like two dozen people, if that. I think people expect far too much, and unreasonably so. Delays and changes in development happen to any game; even World of Warcraft has committed this cardinal sin (and continues to do so) even with their billion-dollar income, hundreds of developers, and decade-plus development experience.

If people really want to point to 3PV and CW not being here yet as something that relegates the game to a 'zero', then they are doing both themselves and the game a disservice by failing to present a less biased view of it.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Arrachtas, on 26 September 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Star Citizen makes promise after promise. What's going to happen when they break one (or more)? They will. Star Wars: The Old Republic had nearly $300,000,000 in funding, BioWare, and the Star Wars IP. It had fantastic interviews, updates, information, trailers, and made a TONNE of promises that looked like they would be supported. The game went F2P within months and was hemorrhaging tens of thousands of people per week. Let us not point to games that make flashy promo vids and promises and believe with utter conviction that they will come true. I dearly hope that nobody is so naiive.

Will it is not if they break a promise, as you said, they will. But the way PGI respond is a textbook case study on what not to do or how to p*ss off your customers towards Rage.

FYI, I played SWTOR. I also left due to the way they treated their players when they first started. Of cause they are now really responsive, but alas too late. Same with GW2, I left due to the same reason.

As so many people said and keep on saying, communication is way important. Those that fail to realize it also fail to last long, in this day and age.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 26 September 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Lindonius]

MischiefSC, on 26 September 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

The result being a community that's throwing about $1 million a month at them. Not because of the content they are providing but because they are making promises and keeping them in addition to showing (not occasionally abstractly telling) what that money is doing.

And herein lies the crux of the issue for me. I can't see that the money is going anywhere other than to the creation of more hero mechs.

NOT A SINGLE SCREENSHOT of community warfare progress in OVER A YEAR.

Boar's Head anyone?

[Sandpit]

Lindonius, on 26 September 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

And herein lies the crux of the issue for me. I can't see that the money is going anywhere other than to the creation of more hero mechs.

NOT A SINGLE SCREENSHOT of community warfare progress in OVER A YEAR.

Boar's Head anyone?

Screenshot? There's not been a single piece of content added other than mechs or maps in two years. Not one

[Gaden Phoenix]

Arrachtas, on 26 September 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

If people really want to point to 3PV and CW not being here yet as something that relegates the game to a 'zero', then they are doing both themselves and the game a disservice by failing to present a less biased view of it.

I do not think most of the people here on this topic are that extreme to give 0s out. In fact, the people that are coming across as extreme in this thread are the white knights defending the game.

I know there are a few extreme ragers but looking at the thread, they are long gone. To keep on talking about it will only drive more people towards that extreme.

As they say, "One extreme drives people to the other".

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 26 September 2013 - 08:39 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

N0MAD, on 26 September 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Well lets clear that up as its a point often made.
The game was basically already made, as in they didnt need imagination, the story line was there, the weapons, the mechs, it was all provided. The time Developers need in creating a game is actually creating, you know imagining a universe a concept, creating New vehicles, weapons, scenarios, art. None of this was required, hell even the art, Mechs were already pre designed, the artist really only needed to copy existing ideas and models.
So as far as time goes they were able to bypass the time thats called the concept stage.
They had the concept, the story, the art, the engine, and over 2 years, and this is what we have.
Great job.

right. So PGI can just "scan" a few TRO papers to generate 3D mech models.

PGI can just "wave a hand" and the magic of dicerolls and boardgames becomes a video game. No imagination needed to balance guns, armour, heatsinks or anything.

Heck, with this logic - why doesn't everyone just make any video game in a week flat.

How about a game of thrones video game? probably takes about a month to produce. Just scan the TV shows, copy some drawings, story is all there, throw in some wow fluff, and VOILA...we have a complete video game.

PGI accomplished a ton that has never before been accomplished in a mech game. This ranges from balancing stock type mechs with pure boats with trying to create a game on a shoestring budget on an MMO scale with cryengine.

In fact, with all that content and tabletop balance, I'm surprised none of you made a mechgame in about a month of spare time that was better than this game you seem to keep returning too.

[Sandpit]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 September 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

right. So PGI can just "scan" a few TRO papers to generate 3D mech models.

PGI can just "wave a hand" and the magic of dicerolls and boardgames becomes a video game. No imagination needed to balance guns, armour, heatsinks or anything.

Heck, with this logic - why doesn't everyone just make any video game in a week flat.

How about a game of thrones video game? probably takes about a month to produce. Just scan the TV shows, copy some drawings, story is all there, throw in some wow fluff, and VOILA...we have a complete video game.

PGI accomplished a ton that has never before been accomplished in a mech game. This ranges from balancing stock type mechs with pure boats with trying to create a game on a shoestring budget on an MMO scale with cryengine.

In fact, with all that content and tabletop balance, I'm surprised none of you made a mechgame in about a month of spare time that was better than this game you seem to keep returning too.

Sooooooo you're going to say that a multi-million dollar game development company can't produce a single piece of content other than mechs and maps in two years even though most of that content is one of the primary selling points of the game?

[N0MAD]

yashmack, on 26 September 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

you live in the most amazing fantasy world ive ever seen...

Can you point to anything in my post that isnt true? Pls do.
Who lives in a fantasy world?

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 September 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

right. So PGI can just "scan" a few TRO papers to generate 3D mech models.

PGI can just "wave a hand" and the magic of dicerolls and boardgames becomes a video game. No imagination needed to balance guns, armour, heatsinks or anything.

Heck, with this logic - why doesn't everyone just make any video game in a week flat.

How about a game of thrones video game? probably takes about a month to produce. Just scan the TV shows, copy some drawings, story is all there, throw in some wow fluff, and VOILA...we have a complete video game.

PGI accomplished a ton that has never before been accomplished in a mech game. This ranges from balancing stock type mechs with pure boats with trying to create a game on a shoestring budget on an MMO scale with cryengine.

In fact, with all that content and tabletop balance, I'm surprised none of you made a mechgame in about a month of spare time that was better than this game you seem to keep returning too.

You seriously make me laugh, Accomplished what in balance? Stock mechs, weapons, boats? ( PPC Gaus metagame anyone?) ohh my god do you even play mate?. Yes it was all there, did they invent Lasers, PPCs, ACs? did they invent any Mech or game features like ECM, BAB, anything at all? nothing nada zilch (wait, one thing i think Seismic sensors, my bad), and they cant even balance numbers on weapons, wheres collision? to hard, wheres DX11, SLI, UI2, FFS its a user interface not even a game mechanic. Half a dozen maps in 2 years and most of them you can P across the map. When i first bought GW i got an inch thick book on concept art, they had that provided, dont give me poop about modelling any 12 year old with a tutorial and 3D studio can create 3D models..
Any gamer will tell you there are many games where amateurs have created maps/mods way beyond the maps provided here.
Tell me mate, apart from a couple of maps and dozens of Hero mechs (for MC of course) and changing 8v8 to 12v12 what has been aded to this game since Alpha, others have asked, tell us please.

[Corvus Antaka]

N0MAD, on 27 September 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

You seriously make me laugh, Accomplished what in balance? Stock mechs, weapons, boats? ( PPC Gaus metagame anyone?) ohh my god do you even play mate?. Yes it was all there, did they invent Lasers, PPCs, ACs? did they invent any Mech or game features like ECM, BAB, anything at all? nothing nada zilch (wait, one thing i think Seismic sensors, my bad), and they cant even balance numbers on weapons, wheres collision? to hard, wheres DX11, SLI, UI2, FFS its a user interface not even a game mechanic. Half a dozen maps in 2 years and most of them you can P across the map. When i first bought GW i got an inch thick book on concept art, they had that provided, dont give me poop about modelling any 12 year old with a tutorial and 3D studio can create 3D models..
Any gamer will tell you there are many games where amateurs have created maps/mods way beyond the maps provided here.
Tell me mate, apart from a couple of maps and dozens of Hero mechs (for MC of course) and changing 8v8 to 12v12 what has been aded to this game since Alpha, others have asked, tell us please.

you here to just whine and complain? or are you here to work towards positive change?

or why else are you here? you still play?

Bring something constructive to the table, and someone might actually care.

right...and if it's all so easy..why aren't you doing it again?

[Jestun]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 September 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

right. So PGI can just "scan" a few TRO papers to generate 3D mech models.

PGI can just "wave a hand" and the magic of dicerolls and boardgames becomes a video game. No imagination needed to balance guns, armour, heatsinks or anything.

Heck, with this logic - why doesn't everyone just make any video game in a week flat.

How about a game of thrones video game? probably takes about a month to produce. Just scan the TV shows, copy some drawings, story is all there, throw in some wow fluff, and VOILA...we have a complete video game.

PGI accomplished a ton that has never before been accomplished in a mech game. This ranges from balancing stock type mechs with pure boats with trying to create a game on a shoestring budget on an MMO scale with cryengine.

In fact, with all that content and tabletop balance, I'm surprised none of you made a mechgame in about a month of spare time that was better than this game you seem to keep returning too.

Stock balanced vs. boats? MMO scale? You realise we are talking about MWO, right?

[Foster Bondroff]

I think those reviews should ring some bells both within PGI and IGN.

I would concider more negative reviews a problem for an IP like Mechwarrior.

Else MWO will creap along the line of "to little to late!".

[N0MAD]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 September 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

you here to just whine and complain? or are you here to work towards positive change?

or why else are you here? you still play?

Bring something constructive to the table, and someone might actually care.

right...and if it's all so easy..why aren't you doing it again?

Well see im a professional, as such i wouldnt try to do something that i couldnt, as some do.
As far as what i do? im retired im 55 years old and im retired because what i did i did very well.
Do i still play? Well you can ask PGI that, i will tell you ive played very litle in the last 4-5 months, why? again i will say i have standards, when something is below standard i wont partake. Guess some of us are use to and expect the finer things in life (quality etc), while others accept well anything dished out to them.
You failed to answer the question. You avoided it by trying to put the focus on me and trying to put me down.
So can you answer the question or not.?

[Benden]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 27 September 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

you here to just whine and complain? or are you here to work towards positive change?

or why else are you here? you still play?

Bring something constructive to the table, and someone might actually care.

right...and if it's all so easy..why aren't you doing it again?

You're getting quite redundant with your arguments.
Also, you're not bringing yourself anything new "on the table" : I would hate working IRL with you to hear you say "it's all wonderful already". In my work environment we take criticisms and we try to improve.
Not just wearing some shiny fun boy costume and push the slogan button "it's all already great", "do it yourself if you think you're smarter", "why you here whining if not happy" or other "brilliant" rhetoric.
At least, all the vocal minority's merit would be to make PGI realize there's something wrong with MWO right now.

[CrashieJ]

What bothers me is the Command Chair, that gave us pretty good information, was just dropped...

you want to see it? well here it is.