345 replies to this topic

[Asakara]

YMMV.


Edit: Summary: In the first video at 5:05 my SRMs clearly hit (to me) but did not register, and at 1:29 in the second video an AC\5 shot did not register. Otherwise the videos contain a bunch of different weapons hitting a spider on the training grounds.

Edited by Asakara, 01 October 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Asakara, on 01 October 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

YMMV.

Why don't you condense the important part of that 8 minute video and tell us if there is anything worth watching?

[Asakara]

PEEFsmash, on 01 October 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Why don't you condense the important part of that 8 minute video and tell us if there is anything worth watching?

Sorry, I suck at making videos. So here is the summary: Out of all the shots I only saw one at 5:05 with SRMs which clearly hit (to me) but did not register on the paper doll. After that I shot up a Spider again with SRMs and had zero issues.

The other two videos are with some other weapons. I did not have any issues there either, At 1:29 in the second video an AC\5 shot did not register, but like I said, your mileage may vary.

Edited by Asakara, 01 October 2013 - 10:52 PM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Quote

What about SRMs?!?! Buff them to 2.5!!!

[color=#959595]Nuh uh. 2.5 SRM damage causes the same effect as the previous LRM-aggedon. While funny to test, the 6-SRM6 Catapult will decimate any Assault class Mech in 3 volleys. The third volley doesn’t even have to be a full volley, 2 volleys following up with a medium laser will probably kill most builds in the game. So what am I going to do about this? Well let me explain an issue…[/color]

[color=#959595]Many of you have cited hit detection errors. We’re seeing this as well. While it happens across almost all Mechs, it’s most noticeable with small Mech chassis. Bumping damage is going to help deal a small amount more damage to small Mechs, but the larger Mechs are going to be destroyed VERY quickly. We are investigating the root cause of these detection errors but it’s a deep problem. We need to find out if it’s in HSR (host state rewind) or is it in the simulation running on the server etc etc. Once found we will be pouring heavy resources on to the problem to fix it ASAP. However, I can tell you this, it’s going to take a while to find due to its complexity.[/color]

[color=#959595]That being said, here’s an opportunity for you to decide your fate when dealing with SRMs. In this feedback thread ([/color]http://mwomercs.com/...-hit-detection/[color=#959595]), there is a poll. You can vote to bump SRM damage up to 2.0, not this patch but next, or leave damage as is until hit detection is fixed. Keep in mind, this bump in damage is going to be a fairly big world of hurt for larger Mechs. NOTE: Cut off for voting will be Sunday 11:59PM PST.[/color]
[color=#959595]

[/color]


I think the SRM issue was covered earlier when Odin's Fist tried to misquote Paul a bunch of times and then somehow tried to justify clearly taking a piece of the above statement out of context when Asakara called him on it.

One side here seems to be disingenuous. If you spent less time making stuff up on the boards and more time playing maybe you wouldn't have any trouble against spiders, or jenners, or X mech/weapon of the week like the rest of us

[William Mountbank]

I play a lot of Spider-5D, and one of the mechs that once gave me trouble is the Quickdraw (before people stopped fitting PPCs and tiny engines on them). So I recently got three QKD variants and did the usual grind. And you know what, dropping with a Quickdraw that packs LLs, MLs and SSRMs with an XL360 and BAP turns out to be a pretty good counter to lights. All lights, even the Spider. Especially the Spider, as it has the weakest weaponry of all the lights (save the other Spider variants).

Actually, I observe that SSRMs seem to have a tighter focus on Spiders due to their lanky build, so they appear particularly effective against that mech. Combine that with the fact that Quickdraws are great jump brawlers with no 'glass' areas like Cataphracts, and it seems to me that Spider survivability is purely a factor of people loving to drop in mechs that are only useful when it comes to dealing damage to an Atlas.

[Pjwned]

I've seen spiders zipping in and out of fire from 5 different mechs all firing at them and they barely take any damage at all. I've had a number of times where I go to chase a spider in my jenner and they just refuse to die after multiple volleys of 4 medium lasers, meanwhile I could NEVER do that in my jenner.

One time I saw a spider going through the canyon of death in Canyon Network (I imagine we all know the spot) and pretty much my ENTIRE team was down there and shooting at it because they ran straight in, yet it somehow managed to leave the canyon alive, and I'm pretty damn sure NO other mech could do that. Granted, it was at extremely low HP and died when I simply tagged it with 1 or 2 medium lasers (I was at Theta and they escaped that way) but it's still ridiculous because there were seriously 8 or more mechs firing at it and it somehow didn't instantly die as a light mech.

Probably the worst map to have a spider be annoying and somehow not get hit by like 10 lasers is Terra Therma because of all the hills they can run around on while annihilating your internals with MG spam.

[William Mountbank]

When you lead a Spider, your convergence is on the background point you aim at. This is why the Spider can run around heavies and assaults with 'impunity', their weapons are converging around the Spider, and their engines are too small to allow them to follow and track the Spider adequately.

The same applies to all the other lights, even the ones with considerable greater firepower.

Annoyance with Spiders is just the same as saying "he stole my kill by driving a mech that's hard to hit". Except you also stole his kill by driving a mech with armour.

[AssaultPig]

You can't really replicate spiders' issues in the training ground because the training ground is locally hosted (also, the mechs don't move.) The problem with them is that their size and speed exacerbate some inherent problems with server side hit detection.

The server is sending information to your client about where all the mechs in the game are, how fast they're traveling, etc. When you see a mech walk by, you're actually seeing it where the server thought it was .1s or so ago, depending on your latency. Likewise, where the server thinks that mech is is actually where the pilot's client thought it was .1s ago (again, depending on latency.) These discrepancies cause hits that look good to your client not to register, because the server has to reconcile positioning information from both clients.

For most mechs this isn't a noticeable problem. A shot aimed at where a mech was .2 seconds ago will probably still hit it, because mechs are large and relatively slow. Even jenners and other lights or fast mediums are large enough that it's not so tough to compensate for (although a fast jenner pilot at high latency is still a pain to hit with ballistics.) But tiny little spiders don't have to travel very far to make your shot miss, and at ~150km/h they can go a fair distance in a quarter second. Functionally this generates the results we see ingame: a moving spider is tough to hit with anything other than lasers, and even with lasers it's hard to get anything near full damage. I mean, consider the difference between spiders and commandos: they carry pretty similar firepower and run at about the same speed, but spiders are much harder to deal with. The reason for this is latency and spider hitboxes.

It's a tough challenge from a balance standpoint, because slowing spiders down enough to alleviate this issue or increasing the size of their hitboxes could make them easy targets. On the other hand, the current implementation of spiders is tremendously irritating for anybody not driving one.

[TexAce]

Wispsy, on 01 October 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Sounds like it is mostly an srm problem then, shame you did not get the chance to try acs too.

I just tried it with streaks. It took 19 volleys to take the spider out. 2 of these volleys didn't register any damage (like in my video with SRM2s).

Shoot them with streaks they said.....haha

[Mehlan]

akpavker, on 01 October 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

mehlan and PEEFsmash will find some flaw or just straight up abuse the f**k out of TexAss for posting that video im sure.....just give it time. or at least that's what happened to me when i posted a video showing that they are broken!

You know, you're one hell of a hypocrite... why don't you explain the difference in results between Tex and Ask's vids?

Edited by Mehlan, 02 October 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

@ all the people saying the Spider should be bigger or mech sizes are really badly done because X mech is taller than a heavier mech.

Since when is Height used to determine Weight? Last time I checked... a fishing rod was not the same weight as a Bunglaow even though they can be taller than Bungalows sometime.

The problem with spiders is not that you cant hit them... hitting them is actually pretty damn easy. The problem is the hitdetection problem with hits to the center torso not correctly registering,

[HeavyRain]

Now that one of the trial mechs is a p*mped-out spider everybody can try them for themselves and see what this is about. My only light mech is a Jenner with jumpjets and a 280XL, so I took the spider for a ride yesterday, same speed more or less, same ability to jump around, only difference was that with the spider i could harass 4 enemy mechs capping our base, moving around their legs and taking potshots for about 2 minutes. Similar story in the next match, then the one after that.
Doing the same in my jenner? Average life expectancy between 10 and 20 seconds.
Do I hear you say "l2p noob"? Why l2p if I can drive a spider instead.

[DodgerH2O]

I know that anecdotes mean little, but due to these threads about Light/Spider hit detection I've been paying much closer attention to my own play and I've had all of ZERO hit registration errors that I'm sure of. Sometimes I'm in a pinch and can't be focused enough to know whether I aimed properly, but I've started chasing spiders down (sorry team) and testing weapons on them. Maybe it's just me (I average about 120 ping) but if I hit them, whether with lasers, PPCs, or ACs, they take the proper damage every time. Sure lasers spread the damage all over the torso, and sure if I can only keep a laser on target for a split second it doesn't do a lot of damage, but that's not hit registration, that's just the game mechanics.

I'm starting to think it's just that nobody knows how to aim properly. Seriously, I'll see half my team firing on a spider and the thing takes almost no damage, but instead of saying "Something's wrong with the spider" I shoot a laser at it, hit it fine and deduce that something's wrong with my teammates' abilities. It's gotten to the point where I'll chase light mechs down with a heavy/assault just because I can't trust my own lights and mediums to actually hit the darn things.

I'm not saying that everyone complaining is wrong, and that hitreg errors don't happen, but my personal experience has been that if I hit a mech, it takes the proper damage 24/25ths of the time, whether a Spider or Atlas.

EDIT: SRMs are seriously messed up wrt light mechs. I think we can all agree on that. None of my above references count when it comes to SRMs or LBXs.

Edited by DodgerH2O, 02 October 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[Wispsy]

DodgerH2O, on 02 October 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

I know that anecdotes mean little, but due to these threads about Light/Spider hit detection I've been paying much closer attention to my own play and I've had all of ZERO hit registration errors that I'm sure of. Sometimes I'm in a pinch and can't be focused enough to know whether I aimed properly, but I've started chasing spiders down (sorry team) and testing weapons on them. Maybe it's just me (I average about 120 ping) but if I hit them, whether with lasers, PPCs, or ACs, they take the proper damage every time. Sure lasers spread the damage all over the torso, and sure if I can only keep a laser on target for a split second it doesn't do a lot of damage, but that's not hit registration, that's just the game mechanics.

I'm starting to think it's just that nobody knows how to aim properly. Seriously, I'll see half my team firing on a spider and the thing takes almost no damage, but instead of saying "Something's wrong with the spider" I shoot a laser at it, hit it fine and deduce that something's wrong with my teammates' abilities. It's gotten to the point where I'll chase light mechs down with a heavy/assault just because I can't trust my own lights and mediums to actually hit the darn things.

I'm not saying that everyone complaining is wrong, and that hitreg errors don't happen, but my personal experience has been that if I hit a mech, it takes the proper damage 24/25ths of the time, whether a Spider or Atlas.

EDIT: SRMs are seriously messed up wrt light mechs. I think we can all agree on that. None of my above references count when it comes to SRMs or LBXs.

My experience is almost exactly the same as yours. Ping wise, hit detection wise, weapon wise. The last time a hit failed to register for me it was on a Victor that was stood right infront of me and took zero damage from my alpha.


Edit: Have not used SRMs since they fixed laser hsr. If I see SRMs on a mech I generally dismiss them as non-threatening and move on to core somebody useful.

Edited by Wispsy, 02 October 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[ShinVector]

Nryrony, on 01 October 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Hmm, I have to say, I'm hitting spiders very well - with ballistics at range.

I'm not sure about the cause - do lasers lack precise at hit registration? Is the Spider "shield" only working at closer ranges?

Yes. Lag shield happen more at closer ranges but the problem is not limited to spider.
It happens especially when both players has high latency 180ms to >250ms.

Maybe a video will help you understand the problem with LAG and when HSR doesn't work at close range with lasers.
Once the split screen starts around 4min 26 secs, it shows me shooting the BJ with MLs... I think I am shooting the BJ but I am actually shooting behind him.. (At least that is what the server thinks.)
The problem is worst for faster targets.

As Spiders... They are fast, thin and now proven to have hit box issues...
This combined effect with HSR and high latency makes them really hard to kill unless you are a Good shot with low ping.
Low pingers <50ms seems to have the ability to cut through lag shield.
This I know and felt for certain.

Edited by ShinVector, 02 October 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[akpavker]

Mehlan, on 02 October 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

You know, you're one hell of a hypocrite... why don't you explain the difference in results between Tex and Ask's vids?

ah....there you are princess!! i was woundering where you got to........now run along and go play with your dolls in your bedroom adults are talking here.

[ShinVector]

Asakara, on 01 October 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Edit: Summary: In the first video at 5:05 my SRMs clearly hit (to me) but did not register, and at 1:29 in the second video an AC\5 shot did not register. Otherwise the videos contain a bunch of different weapons hitting a spider on the training grounds.

Dude the second video.. 1min 29sec ? I think you are just having the issue of mistaking 'paper doll not updating' issue for shot not registering.
Your cross hairs obviously turned red and means it hits.

This one of my more recent games.
At 3 min 48 secs. I shot and AC20 round into the BJ left arm but after the shot was detected (crosshair turns red) the paperdoll did not show the damage done. Only after missiles hit him a short while later, the left arm paperdoll armour status is corrected and suddenly turns red.

Edited by ShinVector, 02 October 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

ah....there you are princess!! i was woundering where you got to........now run along and go play with your dolls in your bedroom adults are talking here.

Ah, ssdd... you've got nothing but more BS.

[akpavker]

Mehlan, on 02 October 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Ah, ssdd... you've got nothing but more BS.

yes im full of it.....

on the other hand atleast your not being so abusive. with the constant stream of abuse toward people posting in this thread that come from you and peef im suprised this thread wasnt shut down.......ive seen threads shut down for far less!

[Mehlan]

akpavker, on 02 October 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

yes im full of it.....

on the other hand atleast your not being so abusive. with the constant stream of abuse toward people posting in this thread that come from you and peef im suprised this thread wasnt shut down.......ive seen threads shut down for far less!

...and more hypocrisy with a whine to boot. As stated before the ones that test, research and post intelligently get treated as such.

Edited by Mehlan, 02 October 2013 - 07:28 PM.