345 replies to this topic

[Heavenly Angel]

Has it occurred to you guys that it might be a lag/server issue? What if the red reticule is client side regardless of whether the hit connects on the server? I can't get hits to register on spiders but to be honest when I take one out myself the invincibility doesn't really work for me and I die easily.

Could people on both sides of the fence please state their region, ping, and whether they're having issues or not? I'd be interested to see what results we have from the people saying spiders are fine.

I'm in the eu, 120-300 ping and I'm having extreme problems with them.

Edited by Heavenly Angel, 06 October 2013 - 09:30 AM.

[Green Mamba]

Probably not server as people have an easier time killing other Mechs during the same match.Its a known problem with the spiders, anyone who has shot at or watched them being attacked by other teammates are aware of this.People are in denial or most often users not wanting to let go of the Hitbox "crutch" of the spider.I see them do things that I see no other mech regardless of the skill of the pilot do across the board, too much coincidence and regularity with this one chassis.

[Krivvan]

NA, 30-100 ping

I almost always only use lasers (and streaks rarely), so it's hard to tell, but whenever I aim for a component I usually do at least some damage to the Spider. Enough that I can aim for legs and a shut down Spider will always be hit for me. Going for the torso, however much I'm trying to aim, will usually spread the damage over all 3 components.

[General Taskeen]

I run this or this so people have a 50% better chance of hitting my hitboxes. Surprisingly it still takes a lot to destroy it lol.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Maybe its something lag related or server side, because they're clearly broken but they're not usually that bad.

I think it's a combination of factors... of which the network connection & the hsr play into. Here's ones of the problem, you cant look at the drop page...see you've got a ping of say 60... and if we checked that person could have a perfectly good connection....or they could still be dropping packets.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Since this thread started I tried to make a mental note of the discussions in play. It does seem to be widely variable but most often it weighs to the spider not getting hits registered. I can face shot one with gauss and drop it instantly maybe one out of ten times. More often than not it seems to just pass through them. I am starting to think its a combination of issues like hit boxes an server lag. Lag has been bad since the patch and I will firw at one and the next frame he is 10m away.

Going to leave it to the experts but there is definetly and issue.

[Kjudoon]

Heavenly Angel, on 06 October 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

Has it occurred to you guys that it might be a lag/server issue? What if the red reticule is client side regardless of whether the hit connects on the server? I can't get hits to register on them but to be honest when I take a spider out myself the invincibility doesn't really work for me and I die easily.

Could people on both sides of the fence please state their region, ping, and whether they're having issues or not? I'd be interested to see what results we have from the people saying spiders are fine.

I'm in the eu, 120-300 ping and I'm having extreme problems with them.

Yes. And the problem doesn't seem to affect Commandos, Ravens or Jenners that I've seen. If it was a lag factor, we wiouldn't hear about this from guys with very high pings. If it was a speed factor, Cicadas which are normally faster than all other stock lights. it can't be the shape of a Spider either because the Commando is fairlly close too. Then of course there's the video evidence we've seen in this thread.

Again, I don't mind losing fair and square, but it needs to be fair and square, not by exploiting a nerf.

Edited by Kjudoon, 06 October 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[William Mountbank]

I have a ping of 130ms in the EU, and I find all lights challenging but certainly not impossible to hit while piloting a heavy. The Spider stands out only because I would always choose to dogfight with one over Jenners and Ravens, as I can be sure it can't return anything like the damage output I have in *any* other mech.

In my 800 matches piloting a Spider, I have noticed that while no longer dying so quickly to Raven 3Ls, the primary reason for me surviving any given match is a mixture of not rushing out to find enemy mechs, and running away if I actually do find them.
Getting kills always involves hiding behind the target, sniping from extreme range, or kill stealing by targeting heavily damaged enemies.
Running around in the enemy scrum is not an effective tactic. Standing still and laughing while everyone misses also seems to be completely ineffective.

Notice that all pilots who get frustrated trying to hit a Spider find they themselves die very quickly when they actually try out the Spider.

Those people saying they consistently get 700 damage after dropping a couple of times in an un-mastered Spider 5K are actually either lying or talking about just one match out of the scant handful they played. As they were likely Elo neutral during this lucky match, they managed to deal high damage, some of which was probably against a disconnect.

The Spider, thanks to it's chassis shape, is certainly hard to hit. But it's balanced by virtue of being unable to deal any real damage. This is reasonable and fair. Spider pilots aren't stealing your 'kill' by piloting the smallest silhouette mech in the game - you are stealing their kill by dropping in a mech with armour.

[Kjudoon]

Yes, it is true the Spider shape is contributing to many misses. But then why is the same problem not found in the Commando?

Look at the hit box comparison found in this thread : http://mwomercs.com/...x-localisation/

The 30 ton Spider:

http://img15.hosting...1346spider2.png

The 25 ton Commando:

http://img15.hosting...09commando2.png

1. Why is a lighter mech physically bigger?
2. Can what seems to be a 3-5% size difference really make that big of a change in the situation when the hit boxes are extremely close to each other?
3. If this problem is experienced at all ping rates, should not the problem be universal for all small fast mechs?

Maybe the problem solves itself if they make the Spider the same size as the Commando. I can't find anything that defines the size of a Spider needing to be smaller than the Commando. Perhaps I missed it, but regardless. something is wrong, and saying it's lag, server problems universal to all mechs, bad piloting or whatever is not the answer. Particularly when our gracious devs have admitted to reproducing this problem and more than a couple videos illustrating it.

[psihius]

I can tell you for sure from the AC/20 side that hitting a spider with it feels like a lottery - eighter I just do a perfect killshot, or I have to land like 3 shots on it to take it out.
I feels like the issue is highly chance/surcumstance based. Usually if I manage to lay the shot dead center torso/back center torso - the poor thing is just like "poof" and dead. But if I hit it on the sides, arms or legs - I see the damage registered and armor flashing, but just lightly - like an SSRM hit or a successfull medium laser swipe when you get at least half the damage in. Just by the sheer damage an AC/20 does - It should have it's arm armor gone, or side torso armor in deep red. But what I see is AC/20 damage just gets spread all over the mech' and some of the damage left in the process.

I don't see things like this on the Jenner or Raven - either I land a success shot and I'm through the armor (usually the next shot seals the deal), or I miss. I've got pretty good with the AC/20 versus lights - even got 3 kills in a single match by my own sweet AC/20 just yesterday.

Edited by psihius, 06 October 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

Why is a lighter mech physically bigger?

you're comparing both in the lab rather than in the actual game/map.
Look at the spider or commando and then a jenner for example.

[Kjudoon]

Mehlan, on 06 October 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

you're comparing both in the lab rather than in the actual game/map.
Look at the spider or commando and then a jenner for example.

::::looks at the pictures... looks at the post... looks back at the pictures... ... looks back at the post....:::::

not sold.

[japes]

Koniving, on 05 October 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Spider is me. Shot by Lordred.

Thanks for that, requested permission from Lordred for use of his screenshots, so you're now the thumbnail for my Spider Hitboxes Nominal video.

[Koniving]

japes, on 06 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Thanks for that, requested permission from Lordred for use of his screenshots, so you're now the thumbnail for my Spider Hitboxes Nominal video.

No problem. But so you know, that problem happens to most light and medium mechs.

Today a mech shot me 3 times with an AC/20 twin ER PPC and registered zero damage.

I was in a stalker. We synch-dropped on opposite teams to have a one on one fight on an off side of the map. "I hit you." "I know, I shook." "You ain't got no damage." "I know. I'm invincible!"

"Holy ****! That ain't fair!"

My flamer stalker butchered his Atlas.

I refer you to this.
http://mwomercs.com/...66#entry2812866

I also note that the "1% of the time" line is b.s., it happens at least once per match for me. I've headshot stationary mechs to produce "rear torso damage" more often than I've had failed registration of ballistics or missiles against spiders.

Edited by Koniving, 06 October 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[Alpha087]

FenixofBria, on 21 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

They pretty much have Atlas armor and the protection of lag speed.

They most certainly have none of that.

I've had quite a few spiders (and a few other lights) who attempted to engage my sniper Protector alone. One or two hits from the med lasers to soften up the CT armor, but keep them from running away. Then a surprise Gauss round to drop them in a single shot. I'm currently sitting on 12 Gauss spider kills since I started using this build.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 06 October 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

I also note that the "1% of the time" line is b.s., it happens at least once per match for me. I've headshot stationary mechs to produce "rear torso damage" more often than I've had failed registration of ballistics or missiles against spiders.

With the exception of the Spider, I figure the hitreg issue happens like 1 out of every 4 shots (I'm not even sure if that's a fair #). At its peak of failure, it was like every other shot.

It is frustrating to no end either way.

[Kjudoon]

How many medium laser hits does it take to get to the center of a spider? The world may never know.

[Koniving]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

With the exception of the Spider, I figure the hitreg issue happens like 1 out of every 4 shots (I'm not even sure if that's a fair #). At its peak of failure, it was like every other shot.

It is frustrating to no end either way.

Combination speed + shape. If the commando could jump we'd have similar problems.

HSR goes out of whack with every press of the space bar, screwing up the calculation.

Jenners can do something similar if they jumped more often, but they don't.

Ravens don't benefit because the one that can jump can't go fast enough; though my AC/20 Raven has benefited from the occasional AC/20 to the face failing to register against me.

The issue is most prevalent on spiders. When spiders first began they had no issues. PGI never changed their hitboxes. I could headshot spiders pre-HSR with no issue. The issue doesn't lie squarely in the spider's hands is my point. Their speed and shape exasperate the problem. But I agree, it happens a LOT with the spiders.


Skip to 4:55, pre-HSR. No trouble at all hitting them without lag compensation. What's flawed isn't the hit-boxes but their speed, calculations involved with them, and especially the ballistic and missile HSR (I have trouble hitting assaults with SRMs while going 30 kph).

Edit: Missing word "Raven" from "AC/20 Raven."

Edited by Koniving, 07 October 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[Deathlike]

JJs do seem to exacerbate the issue pretty often. I keep wondering what the heck is going on with some of the hits.

[Captain Stiffy]

Corusmaximus, on 05 October 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I have been running FRAPS in games because every time a thread comes up on the forums about broken spider hit boxes, spider pilots yell "learn to aim noob" or "show us proof"

So here is some proof, two clips from a single game.

In these two examples
1) a spider takes a dual gauss to the leg (30 damage). A spider leg has a max of 28 armor, and this one was already damaged. Cross-hairs light up red indicating a hit, but no damage is displayed. http://youtu.be/22zUuQ4Uod8

2) a spider takes a dual gauss to the side torso (30 damage). You can see the cross-hairs light up and you can see the glow of the damaged side torso. Max armor on side torso is 28 (likely 20 on the front). Spider walks away fine. It should have lost its side torso and arm. http://youtu.be/kX1c2RqfaZI

Edit: video embed problems

This. Why do mechs appear to take PARTIAL damage from hits so often? Even I would honestly say about 50% of the time for ALL hits on ANY mech this is the case.