210 replies to this topic

[Davers]

SpoonFighter, on 06 October 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

There are two types of people who play Assault, those who want to shoot other people, and those who want to win. Somehow, these two viewpoints don't always agree with each other, and we get discussions like this, calling cappers cowards, calling fighters neanderthals, its pretty exhausting.

I think it would be solved if there was any reason to defend the base, or if the game mode was changed to having one team defend and one team do the assaulting, but the way it is now, there's no real reason to defend the base other than "I will lose." Also, to appease both crowds, there should be another game-mode created that actually revolves around 'mech combat, with smaller maps and less units, perhaps more aligned with the Solaris matches in MW4, with team and free-for-all modes. In this way, there's more room for the reconnaissance work that other 'mechs can provide, since now that a defending team has to stay at their base, it would be important to know where the enemy is going to assault from, and vice-versa how the defending team is positioned to defend, and those who simply want to slug it out have their own place as well.

Until something like that is done, we're stuck with a game-mode that is an ugly combination of the two. I'm not going to call it a bad game-mode, I rather like the idea of a simultaneous attack and defense mode where the alternative is to annihilate the whole enemy team, but there's too much disagreement between people and varying amounts of situational awareness for it to be the game-mode I'd wager it was originally designed to be.

There *is* a reason to defend the base. It's called 'I don't want to lose the match'. The problem is that there is no consequences for losing other than a reduced amount of exp/cbills. Hopefully when CW is introduced with it's 'every match matters' some players will wise up and realize that it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you lose what you are fighting for.

Players who play over-gunned slow mechs love deriding people who cap. They want to convince everyone that people who cap are cowards or unskilled. That way they try to remove their only weakness- they are slow. If they can convince everyone that the only way to play is to have everyone wander out to the middle of the map to duke it out they don't have to worry about maneuverability or speed. As long as everyone prizes damage and kills more than winning we will continue to see players only caring about half the victory conditions.

[Zapier]

Davers, on 06 October 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Players who play over-gunned slow mechs love deriding people who cap. They want to convince everyone that people who cap are cowards or unskilled. That way they try to remove their only weakness- they are slow. If they can convince everyone that the only way to play is to have everyone wander out to the middle of the map to duke it out they don't have to worry about maneuverability or speed. As long as everyone prizes damage and kills more than winning we will continue to see players only caring about half the victory conditions.

I also see a lot of light or just simply fast mech pilots who are trying to justify their lack of armor and armament against the heavier mechs as their reason to cap within the first couple minutes. Let's not pretend that both the fast cappers and those who don't want to at all (which I felt most weren't advocating for full removal, but delayed ability to cap to encourage people to actually try fighting and using tactics rather than all one or the other for capping or no capping) aren't trying justify their own playstyles. Complaining about assaults wanting it to be a slugfest in the middle of the match with no capping is just as bad as saying all lights just want to fast cap.

I enjoyed playing mediums and heavies throughout the closed beta. I hadn't touched the game for over a year and came back about a week ago. Playing some of the old mech setups (dragons, hunchbacks, etc.) I felt disappointed. I've also been trying to play with some friends in a lance group and found ECM to be very useful, so I switched to a commando. I'm currently saving up for the DDC Atlas to provide that minimal ECM coverage. In the meantime, I'm a 95kph commando that generally stays with my slower lancemates and PUG groups to provide ECM assistance and the ability to chase some silly spiders wanting to harass.

The point of this is that as a light, I'm not playing fast cap role... I'm sometimes scouting and occasionally being the first to be able to RTB when it's under attack because I haven't sped off away from the company yet I'm fast enough to generally get back in time (except for the 3-4 lights with capture modules, then I don't make it in time or I'm dead running around the point waiting for help). I enjoy this role. I support my friends. I support the PUGs. I dish out a few hundred damage since during fights, people tend to target the larger guys first but sometimes I do get hit by an AC20 or something and am pretty much screwed early.

I don't want fast caps because then my friends and many other players tend to get screwed out of a match, but I also don't want 12v12 assaults slugging it out. I think many of you, especially those supporting the 'cap or defend lolers L2P, blah blah' mentality are forgetting the middle ground. You can still play the tactics game, try and flank, provide harassment or simply support your assaults even with light mechs. So, let's not pretend that lights can only cap or be capped. Try to build to be a little more supportive. It's not always about cramming the fastest engine (although, yes it can help). That way you can play with the other mechs and if things start to go south, then go cap or touch the base to try to draw off enemies.

I'm definitely a fan of the proposals for delayed base capping until like 5 minutes have passed or maybe a combined 8 mechs have been taken out between both sides or something. I'm not going to debate or try to throw out well thought out numbers here, just something that promotes trying to fight for a little bit... I don't want the ability to cap removed since as it's been stated, there are times it's necessary or useful... but I do think we shouldn't ignore that assaulting eachother is still one of the more fun points of playing this game and is still the most rewarding... especially for those of us who haven't played thousands of matches to the point that nothing but our win/loss ratio matters anymores...

[Davers]

Zapier, on 06 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

I also see a lot of light or just simply fast mech pilots who are trying to justify their lack of armor and armament against the heavier mechs as their reason to cap within the first couple minutes. Let's not pretend that both the fast cappers and those who don't want to at all (which I felt most weren't advocating for full removal, but delayed ability to cap to encourage people to actually try fighting and using tactics rather than all one or the other for capping or no capping) aren't trying justify their own playstyles. Complaining about assaults wanting it to be a slugfest in the middle of the match with no capping is just as bad as saying all lights just want to fast cap.

I enjoyed playing mediums and heavies throughout the closed beta. I hadn't touched the game for over a year and came back about a week ago. Playing some of the old mech setups (dragons, hunchbacks, etc.) I felt disappointed. I've also been trying to play with some friends in a lance group and found ECM to be very useful, so I switched to a commando. I'm currently saving up for the DDC Atlas to provide that minimal ECM coverage. In the meantime, I'm a 95kph commando that generally stays with my slower lancemates and PUG groups to provide ECM assistance and the ability to chase some silly spiders wanting to harass.

The point of this is that as a light, I'm not playing fast cap role... I'm sometimes scouting and occasionally being the first to be able to RTB when it's under attack because I haven't sped off away from the company yet I'm fast enough to generally get back in time (except for the 3-4 lights with capture modules, then I don't make it in time or I'm dead running around the point waiting for help). I enjoy this role. I support my friends. I support the PUGs. I dish out a few hundred damage since during fights, people tend to target the larger guys first but sometimes I do get hit by an AC20 or something and am pretty much screwed early.

I don't want fast caps because then my friends and many other players tend to get screwed out of a match, but I also don't want 12v12 assaults slugging it out. I think many of you, especially those supporting the 'cap or defend lolers L2P, blah blah' mentality are forgetting the middle ground. You can still play the tactics game, try and flank, provide harassment or simply support your assaults even with light mechs. So, let's not pretend that lights can only cap or be capped. Try to build to be a little more supportive. It's not always about cramming the fastest engine (although, yes it can help). That way you can play with the other mechs and if things start to go south, then go cap or touch the base to try to draw off enemies.

I'm definitely a fan of the proposals for delayed base capping until like 5 minutes have passed or maybe a combined 8 mechs have been taken out between both sides or something. I'm not going to debate or try to throw out well thought out numbers here, just something that promotes trying to fight for a little bit... I don't want the ability to cap removed since as it's been stated, there are times it's necessary or useful... but I do think we shouldn't ignore that assaulting eachother is still one of the more fun points of playing this game and is still the most rewarding... especially for those of us who haven't played thousands of matches to the point that nothing but our win/loss ratio matters anymores...

Everyone enjoys a good fight. No one is talking about removing the destruction of the enemy team as a win condition (though that would be interesting). The 'fast cap' is a response to the assault/heavy brawlfest that is the current meta. The reason Dragons and mediums are 'disappointing' is that speed doesn't matter. Well, 'strategic speed' (the ability to move around the map quickly) compared to 'tactical speed' (the ability to use your speed to avoid taking damage) anyway.

In TT even one movement point was important. It meant maybe you could get into that forest or just out of range plus every mech has the torso twist range of the worst Stalker, making getting behind them much easier. In MWO it doesn't matter much if you can run fast, unless you are also very small.

[Cerlin]

This thread degraded to hate speech against cappers really fast, which is too bad. However I will add my own opinion.

As a dedicated fast medium and heavy pilot, part of the job is to fight, RTB when needed, and cap when your team is heavily outnumbered or to draw the lights back. I use it as part of a general tactic if the enemy team is out of position or if we are already losing. If i am down 0-6 with my lance still alive there is no way I am going to die to a thousand tons of assaults. I will cap every time to punish people for only bringing slow mechs. I do love to get the win but I will never cap the base if its still 0-0. That is lame for me but I do not think we should take away the option. Defend, and make sure to bring your fast mechs kids.

[MortVent]

Cerlin, on 08 October 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

This thread degraded to hate speech against cappers really fast, which is too bad. However I will add my own opinion.

As a dedicated fast medium and heavy pilot, part of the job is to fight, RTB when needed, and cap when your team is heavily outnumbered or to draw the lights back. I use it as part of a general tactic if the enemy team is out of position or if we are already losing. If i am down 0-6 with my lance still alive there is no way I am going to die to a thousand tons of assaults. I will cap every time to punish people for only bringing slow mechs. I do love to get the win but I will never cap the base if its still 0-0. That is lame for me but I do not think we should take away the option. Defend, and make sure to bring your fast mechs kids.

They want to fight a deathmatch, not play a tactical shooter which is what this is.

They want a team deathmatch, not a game where you have to think beyond shooting what's under the target reticle

[Mogney]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Capping is part of the game and if I feel is to my teams strategic advantage for me to cap, then I shall cap. Deal with it.

[Deathmetal]

Huh funny Games mostly on Terra Therma, both Teams running counterclockwise straight to the enemy base.... what a great fun \o/

In my opinion the bases on Assault Games shouldnt be capable within the first 3-5 Minutes of the Game.

[Kain]

Are we having this discussion again? ..

Base capture is a valid win condition in Assault, deal with it,
It doesn't matter if you gain no C-bills or XPs, win = win.

Of course it is not fun to play such a match, but heck,just jump into another match, that is what MW:O is at the moment, a match grinding fest

When community warfare/border warfare/merc contracts is implemented (soon ™)
then just winning a game will become a lot more important than shooting up mechs.

[Ahasver]

Kain, on 10 October 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

When community warfare/border warfare/merc contracts is implemented (soon ™)
then just winning a game will become a lot more important than shooting up mechs.

And imagine the outcry when a 12 Assault slowmotion Team gets capped because they where not able to defend their base.

[Jon Gotham]

SpoonFighter, on 06 October 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

To expand upon that thought, a weight class limited deathmatch mode would be fun as hell, I don't know where Solaris stands timeline-wise, but having those kind of matches to play in would be a blast.

Yeah, deathmatch would absolutely NEED a weight limit.
But I shudder to think what deathmatch will do to the tactical side of the game. The kind of playstyle it will promote, which would bleed over into the other types.....
I have this nightmare vision of 24 assaults all alpha striking at each other, not flanking or using terrain just slugging it out.....

[Alaskan Nobody]

kamiko kross, on 17 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Yeah, deathmatch would absolutely NEED a weight limit.
But I shudder to think what deathmatch will do to the tactical side of the game. The kind of playstyle it will promote, which would bleed over into the other types.....
I have this nightmare vision of 24 assaults all alpha striking at each other, not flanking or using terrain just slugging it out.....

You mean about like mechassault?
Or Mech4?

[Jon Gotham]

Shar Wolf, on 17 October 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

You mean about like mechassault?
Or Mech4?

Ouch! Please no.....*prays to the Devgods*

[Nick Makiaveli]

Well the other day I listened to the Most Awesome Supreme Tactical Gods bitching in chat and stepped off the base cap when there was just a sliver left since we were up 6 to 2. The other 2 Lights joined me....well on the way to the main battle it quickly became 6-8 (WTF?) and even rushing back to their base it was a wash. A Raven rushed in to distract us, which bought time for the Cicada and Shadowhawk to get there.

We lost.

So damn glad we didn't cap win. Got so much more reward by getting ganked and losing the match.

[Commissar Aku]

First off I'm not saying remove the cap or not do it, but maybe there could be a primary and secondary objectives. If in assault the primary objective was labbled and kill other team and secondary objective was cap I think less people would dive the cap every time. Same goes for conquest primary objective being cap and secondary be kill. The biggest argument base cappers have is that it is the first objective to cap because it is the first listed. My big issue is losing my first win of the day to some ***** who thinks capping is the only way to wi, I get more xp killing with a loss than any cap, same with c-bills, and I hate losing money because one ***** can't get the idea that I am trying to get money not wins, games don't count for any thing so get as much money and xp as you can before they change to the factions and make games matter.

[Wolf Clearwater]

I agree with XPH Aku above, unfortunately "captarding" (meaning exactly this: the player that runs straight for base cap, first thing), damages the game as whole. First off, they deny 23 other people who actually want to play, the opportunity to do so. Second, they deny 23 other people rewards in the form of xp and cbills. Third because they chase away new players. Yeah, I will say that. I have seen people quit because they never get to play, because someone has to run to cap right away. If the business model is to attract new players, these guys ruin it for sure. Because there are a quite a few of these severely inconsiderate people, I see this happen typically in 1 out of 3 assault matches. For this reason alone some kind of penalty is needed. I would suggest this: there is no gain/rewards for any kills, assists, spots, damage done, etc if there are more than 4 enemy players alive and you win by cap. I would go even further and suggest that this does not apply to the whole team, only those who would recieve the cap reward. IMHO, these caprushers/captards/whatever are even worse than the dc farmers (remember that back in open beta?), both for the game play, their teams, and to usher in new players. I am NOT saying that cap has no place is assault, I AM saying it should not be available/penalized for caprushing.

Edited by Wolf87535, 02 November 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Burke IV]

kamiko kross, on 17 October 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Yeah, deathmatch would absolutely NEED a weight limit.
But I shudder to think what deathmatch will do to the tactical side of the game. The kind of playstyle it will promote, which would bleed over into the other types.....
I have this nightmare vision of 24 assaults all alpha striking at each other, not flanking or using terrain just slugging it out.....

It will draw all the people that cant handle the tactics or simply hate the capping gameplay style and it will be glorious indeed pure carnage. Meanwhile the people that prefer the other game style will become better at it and wont have to deal with the players that cant stand it. Of course top players and those who are competative will have to be proficient at both.




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Edited by Burke IV, 02 November 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Burke IV, on 02 November 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Of course top players and those who are competative will have to be proficient at both.

Was right with you till I read that, maybe I read it wrong but is that some kind of implied jibe?

[Burke IV]

Not in any way whatsoever If your clan (merc unit) has never practiced one particular playstyle that isnt in teh game they get it handed to them every time that play it by the clan that practiced it even if it was terrible

[RapidFire7]

Capping isn't as black and white as some of you may think it is.

If I'm playing assault in a light mech and I see the enemy move away from their base, I'll cap it to divide their forces (fast mechs rush back). It's not because I'm trying to win the game by cap, it's used as a distraction. When you're in a game and that happens, you are forced to do something about it - you can't just ignore it, otherwise, lo and behold, you'll lose the game.

Usually the enemy doesn't try to outright win by capping at the very start of the game, so don't all get sucked in to mindlessly rushing back to base - leave it to the fast guys.

If we're winning a game and we have the majority of numbers, I'll ask the cappers to get off base and help attack because I believe it's better to win a game of Assault by kills and not base capping.

HOWEVER

We are all here to have fun, but as I'm sure you would all agree, we also like to win. If, for example, the team that I am on only has 3 left and if we are able to, we'd all head to the enemy base and try to win by cap. Capping is still a part of the game whether you like it or not, and if you leave your base wide open like that and decide to do nothing about it, you have no-one to blame but yourself. If the enemy can counter-cap us, that's cool - I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Mechwarrior is just as much a game of strategy as it is about blowing the smithereens out of your opponent (even though that is fun )

Ultimately, everyone should complain about capping, as PGI have made it a part of the game. If you have a problem with it, contact PGI and stop whinging about it on here - it just makes you look bad.

[Vanguard319]

The enemy's gate is DOWN!
All I'm gonna say