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Pc Gamer: Mwo Upcoming Community Warfare Expansion Detailed


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#141 Tolkien

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:32 AM

I didn't notice anyone mentioning this in the in the previous pages, but a great number of the problems being faced by the developers are due to over-ambition. As someone else put it 'aiming for the moon and hitting new jersey'. They keep claiming they are trying to make a 'AAA' title but metacritic (real critics, not random people) gave it a C, C- depending on the grading scale (64/100).

What have they done better than anyone else? Mech graphics... the mechs look gorgeous, the maps are pretty darn good giant shrubs not withstanding, and they are creative in their variety.

Where has circumstance bit them? That cryengine bug that was corrupting the UI sounded nasty, and having to implement HSR from the ground up apparently cost them months. Odd that they didn't do due dilligence on the engine and know this was going to be a huge issue, or maybe they did and there just are no engines available that come with competent net code out of the box.

Where have they shot themselves in the foot?
A few places - let me give a counter example Posted Image

That is a screenshot from a game that was developed over ~1, 1.5 years back in 2000, 2001. The playable beta existed between summer and December 2001. I loved that game :)

1) It had community warfare as soon as I joined up. You picked a house and you fought for that house. Holding more territories caused your passive salary to go up. Each world had 100% health and every won battle on that world got 1% transferred to your faction from the faction you defeated. If no one would drop against you, every 60 seconds you would take 0.1% passively, so you could wear down the planet even if the enemy chose to avoid fighting you.

2) Balancing was done by the players.... every combat drop had the two teams line up where they could see each other and only 'ready up' when both teams were satisfied that the drop was fair. No morass of ELO, tonnage, 3 mans, 4 mans, etc. Just players on each side looking over each other's teams and not dropping unless tonnage was matched within 5-10 tons.

3) Organic progression. MWO seriously lacks any feeling of progression, while still feeling very grindy. Grind can't be eliminated but it can at least feel like you are accomplishing something. Here though your first mech can be an atlas using your cadet bonus. I appreciate that they are trying to do something new here by making every mech have a place on the same battlefield but that is trying to square the circle. In MPBT3025 the solution was simple yet elegant. They made it so border worlds could only supply light mechs, so combat there was 4 lights against 4 lights. Every single pilot in the game was a deadly light pilot since you spent >50% of all games on border worlds just the way they flowed back and forth. Assaults on the other hand took months to earn the money for, but they could only defend regional capitols - 1-3 territories per house. They were a rare sight but ******** they owned the battlefield.

4) Electronic warfare - The best games are those that you can learn the rules to in an hour, but that take a lifetime to master. (e.g. chess). Games where the rules are convoluted and opaque and re-re-re-revised every few weeks are very hard to get into. Electronic warfare in general and ECM specifically are pieces of equipment where even having months of experience with and against it I still don't think I fully grasp all the different ways it interacts with artemis, tag, NARC (bahaha... cough), BAP, other ECM, target range module, info gathering module, UAV.... you get the idea.

5) Role warfare. Well the game is launched and there are still no role specific skill trees. Not only that but some of the skills in the placeholder skill trees are apparently non-functional. Pinpoint does nothing I believe, and I recall fast fire along with the AC2 causing ghost heat headaches. Additionally the rewards system seems heavily heavily tilted towards mechs that dish out damage. Spotting, scouting and base capping all seem underwhelming in terms of their rewards. Granted it is hard to properly balance these but role warfare being viable requires that they be balanced. Currently we have a U curve of mediocrity where mediums are not fast enough to shine in conquest, nor are they powerful or tough enough to shine in assault.

6) Customization - I love customization. Absolutely adore it. However from a game play point of view it's a nightmare. It means that weapons have to be balanced as though they are going to be boated and abused in the worst ways possible, and tiny changes in balance can and will cause massive swings in player behaviour since everyone can switch weapons at the drop of a hat. Also in a real time game where different weapons have different targeting characteristics boating is almost inevitable. Take the example of the AC/20, the medium laser, and the SRM6. On tabletop these all have the exact same range profile, and therefore a mech armed with one of each will find it exactly as hard to hit a given target with all 3. In real time though they are a nightmare to use together effectively since they all travel at different speeds, and cool down at different rates. It is generally easier to hit a target with copies of the same weapon than to aim at 3 different places and for 3 different durations to make effective use of 3 different weapons systems.

7) Community warfare is the worst offender in terms of proposed complexity. Lone wolves, loyalists, mercenaries, clans, lord knows who else, vying for contracts (or not.... can clanners take contracts? Can loyalists? Can lone wolves). Garrisons, dropships, bases, planetary production bonuses, black market..... Even having watched the video from the launch day a few times I am having trouble getting my head around whether or not wolf's dragoons are endgame content or not, or if there's any point at all to playing as a house loyalist.

It reminds me of a quote from Bob Colwell, the former chief chip architect at intel who was behind the P6 (pentium pro, grandfather of most of their current processors) "If you choose everything as your targets, you won't hit any of them."

Given that they don't have the human resources to have started CW until now, and the apparent enormity of the task, I'm substantially concerned that CW will suffer further significant delays, be chock full of convoluted mechanics, and be another example of shooting for an "AAA" gaming system that will turn out as another C, C- as the game itself has to date.

I really want these guys to succeed, and I know I couldn't do any better, so let's get those canards out of the way, but having watched the pace and style of development for >18 months, I really do think the quality of the final product would be better if they focused on a tighter, more achievable and less interconnected series of goals.

1) Lobbies....
2) Territory control
3) membership in the great houses... no merc units, no lone wolves, just the houses.

Then go from there.

#142 IridiumFox

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:02 AM

Tolkien. If i was hiring for an online mech combat game. I'd hire you. Everything you said makes sense, is constructive and offers straight forward objectives to improve the user experience.

Edited by Xotor, 18 October 2013 - 03:02 AM.


#143 Tolkien

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:15 AM

View PostXotor, on 18 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Tolkien. If i was hiring for an online mech combat game. I'd hire you. Everything you said makes sense, is constructive and offers straight forward objectives to improve the user experience.


Thanks for the kind words, Xotor.

#144 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:21 AM

View PostTolkien, on 18 October 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Where has circumstance bit them? That cryengine bug that was corrupting the UI sounded nasty, and having to implement HSR from the ground up apparently cost them months. Odd that they didn't do due dilligence on the engine and know this was going to be a huge issue, or maybe they did and there just are no engines available that come with competent net code out of the box.


They were supposed to know about all the cryengine bugs that were going to affect their game when they decided to use that technology?

I wonder why Chris Roberts chose Cryengine then, knowing about all the bugs that are going to affect his UI and the difficulty of implementing HSR. Shame he didn't do his due diligence either.

#145 Tolkien

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

[/size]

They were supposed to know about all the cryengine bugs that were going to affect their game when they decided to use that technology?

I wonder why Chris Roberts chose Cryengine then, knowing about all the bugs that are going to affect his UI and the difficulty of implementing HSR. Shame he didn't do his due diligence either.


Maybe you didn't read the rest of the sentence but just in case I'll repeat it - '..., or maybe they did and there just are no engines available that come with competent net code out of the box.'

#146 Wieland

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:33 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

[/size]

They were supposed to know about all the cryengine bugs that were going to affect their game when they decided to use that technology?

I wonder why Chris Roberts chose Cryengine then, knowing about all the bugs that are going to affect his UI and the difficulty of implementing HSR. Shame he didn't do his due diligence either.

Roberts has paid more for better support maybe?

#147 Oxyphill

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:14 AM

Tolkien,
One of the most outstanding piece of criticism of MWO. It is greatly balanced by you proposal. GJ!
I can only agree with your position.
If this game wants to live, in the next following months (2 max) we need CW. Otherways we will drown in boredom of infinite grinding.

#148 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostTolkien, on 18 October 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Maybe you didn't read the rest of the sentence but just in case I'll repeat it - '..., or maybe they did and there just are no engines available that come with competent net code out of the box.'


I read it all. That second part is just code words for "Yeah, right".

Not to mention there are a ton of other issues with your post. For example, on your points on customization, you start with a logical fallacy that it is impossible to balance beyond short, medium and long range weapons if they all have different travel speeds and cooldowns. And you use tabletop rules as an example of how it should be. But this is an FPS, not a 10 second turn based game

However, they *can* be balanced, boating can be discouraged, and doing so DOES increase the customization in the game. It's not easy, but it's not a nightmare. And the game is decently balanced right now. And changing customization isn't trivial for the player either, since it costs Posted Image to make these changes, and as we all know, Posted Image aren't exactly falling from the trees.

I'm sure you'll make a point here about how weapon system X is unbalanced and try to use that as an example that it can't be done. The world is full of people doing things that other people say just can't be done though. This game is no different. Not to mention that just because something *feels* unbalanced doesn't mean that it is. Data drives decisions, not feelings. And the data may point to a completely different conclusion than your feelings.

View PostWieland, on 18 October 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

Roberts has paid more for better support maybe?


I wonder if you really believe that...

#149 Tolkien

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:29 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:


I read it all. That second part is just code words for "Yeah, right".

Not to mention there are a ton of other issues with your post. For example, on your points on customization, you start with a logical fallacy that it is impossible to balance beyond short, medium and long range weapons if they all have different travel speeds and cooldowns. And you use tabletop rules as an example of how it should be. But this is an FPS, not a 10 second turn based game

However, they *can* be balanced, boating can be discouraged, and doing so DOES increase the customization in the game. It's not easy, but it's not a nightmare. And the game is decently balanced right now. And changing customization isn't trivial for the player either, since it costs Posted Image to make these changes, and as we all know, Posted Image aren't exactly falling from the trees.

I'm sure you'll make a point here about how weapon system X is unbalanced and try to use that as an example that it can't be done. The world is full of people doing things that other people say just can't be done though. This game is no different. Not to mention that just because something *feels* unbalanced doesn't mean that it is. Data drives decisions, not feelings. And the data may point to a completely different conclusion than your feelings.



I wonder if you really believe that...



Nowhere in my post did I mention short medium or long range weapons. Instead of making up things I've said about how I think the game could be made better, why not post your own ideas about what would make the game better.

That way we can have a constructive conversation.

#150 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:42 AM

View PostTolkien, on 18 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:



Nowhere in my post did I mention short medium or long range weapons. Instead of making up things I've said about how I think the game could be made better, why not post your own ideas about what would make the game better.

That way we can have a constructive conversation.


UI 2.0 and CW.

We can also discuss another fallacy in your post:

Quote

2) Balancing was done by the players.... every combat drop had the two teams line up where they could see each other and only 'ready up' when both teams were satisfied that the drop was fair. No morass of ELO, tonnage, 3 mans, 4 mans, etc. Just players on each side looking over each other's teams and not dropping unless tonnage was matched within 5-10 tons.


That is a horrible balancing system. That isn't balancing at all, and it completely destroys immersion. Half of the fun is not knowing what the other side has, and adapting to the situation when you meet the enemy (ie information warfare). We want a mech sim.

Edited by Heffay, 18 October 2013 - 05:46 AM.


#151 Cybermech

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:45 AM

Not sure if I agree with ye Tolkien. It is a very nice thread with some intersting points.
But I think it is more value in thought then in practice.
Not trolling btw :blink:

the "AAA" title or direction is more to mention that they don't want to go the indy way of things.
cause once I heard "free to play" my heart sank, I played lots of MW and saw the trailor video a long time ago and was looking out for more info.
I beleive the marketing of the AAA title was more to quench fears that where my thoughts untill I hit the launch button.
For a unfinished game, missing a WHOLE chunk of content (CW,UI2.0) ratting of 6 is a really good honest score.

1, tbh I kind of delighted CW was not in, or at least the filler version like UI has.
From being around on these forums and getting to know some of the staff it has really changed my prespective on creating a game.
I do believe that this production is going slower then I like but it seems to be at the speed it needs to be for them to produce the game they would nearly have wanted. (single player game was there original aim).
If we add in the extra work around CW over the last year and a half we would still be back, way back and cryengine would most likely be needed to be done.
I'm actually happy that no rushed versions or filler has been produced yet.
Also has negative effect if it ends up being a rushed or filler version I probly rage beyond belief.

2. This is something I would hate to be in game, private servers is different but in actual game.
Can lead to some very easy farming including choosing the maps.
Plenty of discussions about it and tbh the best way is for people not to be able to choose, some weight restrictions of sorts would be better in my opinion

3. I do believe there will be some restrictions like the ones mentioned but all of it is up in the air it can go anyways.

4. I disagree with good game = learning thing in a hour, those kind of games are very boring in my opinion.
But still most of it is not confusing at all, it is how people present these things to new people.
Artemsis, boosts missiles when you can see the target your shooting at.
Ecm, can't target enemy, so can't shoot missiles, if you see target moving in don't expect your team to.
Bap, disabled ecm, longer targeting range, quicker locking target, can lock on to powered down mechs.
Tag, disables ecm, tighter spread on lrms/srms, quick locking time.
Narc, FUBBING USELESS - only worth talking about how useless it really is, actually I think I might go on for 2 lines just point out how useless it really is by stating how useless it really is or I could not find a way to say something nice about it :blink:
however 2 sided coin for that one, narc in games where it is very usefull is normally way too usefull.

5. couldn't agree with ye more, pinpoint is convergance and that in game was having major issues, you have to lead with ballistics :)
Skill unlocks has been the cancer to this game then most realise, like you might have not noticed it but your points around mediums revolves around that issue.

6 agree with the top but not once you mention ac20, ML, Srm.
Alpha'ing, I would consider rolling from mouse button 1,2,3 within a second still alpha'ing. You can do that easily with the mentioned weapons.
In close range anways or points of map that are chokepoints/corridors.
I always thought that without a limited hard system the game play would force it to be implemented eventually.
Saw the heat scale and paul maths and could not see a solution anywhere.
Once I played with it implemented I could see how easily it fixed a lot of problems and still needs some tweaking.

7. Community warfare has been in development for as long as MWO.
Mainly just ideas, thoughts and a lot of discussions but it has been one of the most important parts of the game.
Actual pratical is work is another thing all together.

#152 Wieland

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:50 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

I wonder if you really believe that...

Its a known fact that they had a visit from Cryptic guys before the release of the Hangar Module. There is a video somewhere.

#153 Wieland

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:54 AM

View PostOxyphill, on 18 October 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

Tolkien,
One of the most outstanding piece of criticism of MWO. It is greatly balanced by you proposal. GJ!
I can only agree with your position.
If this game wants to live, in the next following months (2 max) we need CW. Otherways we will drown in boredom of infinite grinding.

I have already cut my MWO time by 2/3. When the only thing that is to do, is mastering mechs, the boredom is inevitable at some point.
What i fear right now is that i take a break from MWO. I have never gone back to a game that i took a break from.

MWO will not get CW within 2 Months. We need lots of luck to actually get phase 1 this year.
I do not even believe in their full CW within 6 months plan anymore after the October CDU.

Edited by Wieland, 18 October 2013 - 07:03 AM.


#154 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:00 AM

View PostWieland, on 18 October 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Its a known fact that they had a visit from Cryptic guys before the release of the Hangar Module. There is a video somewhere.


Smoking gun right there...

I'm sure PGI bought the "no support provided" licensing agreement when they decided to use Cryengine.

#155 Wieland

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:


Smoking gun right there...

I'm sure PGI bought the "no support provided" licensing agreement when they decided to use Cryengine.

I dont think they bought the no support one(only someone who has big experience with an engine would risk that or a complete selfcensored), but definitely the lowest support one.

#156 torgian

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:17 AM

Been a long while since I read up on anything for MWO.

Haven't played since August myself. I guess nothing has changed so far. Funny thing is that I leave for Japan for school in April, so I may not get a chance to play this game until I get back in 2016. I'm hoping they have some semblance of something FUN in this game before then, but I doubt it.

#157 Warge

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:24 AM

View Posttorgian, on 18 October 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

I get back in 2016. I'm hoping they have some semblance of something FUN in this game before then, but I doubt it.

If there will be place to return...

#158 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostWieland, on 18 October 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

I dont think they bought the no support one(only someone who has big experience with an engine would risk that or a complete selfcensored), but definitely the lowest support one.


You are familiar with the varying support packages Cryengine offers, and which ones both PGI and CIG purchased?

#159 Tombstoner

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:27 AM

View PostHeffay, on 18 October 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:


You are familiar with the varying support packages Cryengine offers, and which ones both PGI and CIG purchased?

Irreverent... all you have to do is ask yourself what happens to a game that features player controlled real time targeting with large deltas in packet speeds between host and multiple clients. This is a foreseeable question. answer i dont know i'm not a programer but i guess it results in players shooting at objects that aren't there perhaps. so now you need to link every player to a unified state regardless of ping rate or use time travel aka host state rewind to fix your game.

#160 Heffay

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostTombstoner, on 18 October 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Irreverent... all you have to do is ask yourself what happens to a game that features player controlled real time targeting with large deltas in packet speeds between host and multiple clients. This is a foreseeable question. answer i dont know i'm not a programer but i guess it results in players shooting at objects that aren't there perhaps. so now you need to link every player to a unified state regardless of ping rate or use time travel aka host state rewind to fix your game.


You're right. Star Citizen is doomed.





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