224 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Knockdowns!

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Oh i see. I thought you meant in a way that helped you to use Streaks.

You don't see the benefit of locking on to a target while behind cover or while moving to engagement range?

In that case, you're worse than I thought.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 04 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

You don't see the benefit of locking on to a target while behind cover or while moving to engagement range?

In that case, you're worse than I thought.

Yeah because locking on behind cover or out of range where you can't fire at the target is a huge benefit...
It's not like it takes ages to get a lock when you can fire.

[FupDup]

Completely separate and distinct from the OP's idea, I think that we could actually extend MWO's TTK for all classes by using the TT damage-per-second (and heat while we're at it) ratios of weapons with the armor and internal stats used in TT. I am using this thread for it because, as the thread's title implies, it's about armor being compared from here to TT so it does fit the topic at hand (but offers a completely different idea). Naturally, weapons that were terribad in TT such as the AC/2 would need to deal higher DPS than its TT counterpart in order for them to be viable.


For example, a TT PPC does 1 DPS (10 damage once every 10 seconds), and with MWO's cooldown of 4 that means it would now deal only 4 damage per shot and 4 heat per shot. Here is a list of one mech of every tonnage interval using max armor, and how many PPC shots it would take to core-out any of the following mechs under my system:

20 tons (Locust): 9 armor + 6 internals; 3.75 PPC shots (round up to 4)
25 tons (Commando) : 12 armor + 8 internals; 5 PPC shots
30 tons (Spider): 15 armor + 10 internals; 6.25 PPC shots (round up to 7)
35 tons (Jenner): 17 armor + 11 internals; 7 PPC shots
40 tons (Cicada): 18 armor + 12 internals; 7.5 PPC shots (round up to 8)
45 tons (Blackjack): 21 armor + 14 internals; 8.75 PPC shots (round up to 9)
50 tons (Hunchback): 24 armor + 16 internals; 10 PPC shots
55 tons (Kintaro): 27 armor + 18 internals; 11.25 PPC shots (round up to 12)
60 tons (Dragon): 30 armor + 20 internals; 12.5 PPC shots (round up to 13)
65 tons (Catapult): 32 armor + 21 internals; 13.25 PPC shots (round up to 14)
70 tons (Cataphract): 33 armor + 22 internals; 13.75 PPC shots (round up to 14)
75 tons (Orion): 35 armor + 23 internals; 14.5 PPC shots (round up to 15)
80 tons (Awesome): 38 armor + 25 internals; 15.75 PPC shots (round up to 16)
85 tons (Stalker); 41 armor + 27 internals; 17 PPC shots
90 tons (Highlander): 44 armor + 29 internals; 18.25 PPC shots (round up to 19)
95 tons (Banshee): 45 armor + 30 internals; 18.75 PPC shots (round up to 19)
100 tons (Atlas): 47 armor + 31 internals; 19.5 PPC shots (round up to 20)
(Note that the armor distribution above was arrived at using the SSW offline mech designer program, which automatically distributes the armor based on what typical TT mechs use. Players can obviously move some of their rear armor forward to the front (at the risk of worse defense against anklebiters)).




Let's compare this to what happens with MWO's doubled armor and doubled internals with TT damage per shot values (as opposed to damage per second). The following table uses the armor and internal health values arrived at from doubling the ones listed above:

20 tons (Locust): 18 armor + 12 internals; 3 PPC shots
25 tons (Commando) : 24 armor + 16 internals; 4 PPC shots
30 tons (Spider): 30 armor + 20 internals; 5 PPC shots
35 tons (Jenner): 34 armor + 22 internals; 5.6 PPC shots (round up to 6)
40 tons (Cicada): 36 armor + 24 internals; 6 PPC shots
45 tons (Blackjack): 42 armor + 28 internals; 7 PPC shots
50 tons (Hunchback): 48 armor + 32 internals; 8 PPC shots
55 tons (Kintaro): 54 armor + 36 internals; 9 PPC shots
60 tons (Dragon): 60 armor + 40 internals; 10 PPC shots
65 tons (Catapult): 64 armor + 42 internals; 10.6 PPC shots (round up to 11)
70 tons (Cataphract): 66 armor + 44 internals; 11 PPC shots
75 tons (Orion): 70 armor + 46 internals; 11.6 PPC shots (round up to 12)
80 tons (Awesome): 76 armor + 50 internals; 12.6 PPC shots (round up to 13)
85 tons (Stalker); 82 armor + 54 internals; 13.6 PPC shots (round up to 14)
90 tons (Highlander): 88 armor + 58 internals; 14.6 PPC shots (round up to 15)
95 tons (Banshee): 90 armor + 60 internals; 15 PPC shots
100 tons (Atlas): 94 armor + 62 internals; 15.6 PPC shots (round up to 16)


I am unsure if this system provides "equal" benefit to all classes or not, but what I can say is that all mechs would become at least somewhat more durable than they are now.



A side-effect of this system is that many cool-running stock builds can actually run cool for once, and our heat dissipation could actually keep up with the heat output. This would also allows us to get away with adding in heat penalties that would normally not work too well with our current overly-punitive heat system.

Edited by FupDup, 04 October 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Okay, i keep getting asked what i mean when i say that light mechs in MWO recieved a bigger defense buff over the other classes because of TT values and why i think armour values should have been increased incrementally with lights getting the smallest buff and assaults getting the biggest, so i'm making this post so i don't have to explain it over and over....

I completely disagree on this matter.

Weapons in MWO are so fast and precise, its a manic for every light (except the spider ofc). Even at full speed you get hit regular, by ballistics, that includes the AC20...(except the spider ofc)

One hit of an AC20 is close to a death sentence for every light. If anything, they need to be harder to hit (except the spider ofc). The hitbox of a Jenner CT is sooo huge copared to the other lights, besides its legs it usually won't be hit else where. With that stupid hitbox it almost doesn't matter if or how you turn to make ST or arms/legs soak up the dmg.

In my Atlas its almost too easy to kill _single_ lights (except the spider ofc), since it has arms and can mount lasers into them. My arms move faster then the light can and its easy to ct or leg most lights.

With SS lights get spotted very quickly, the advanced zoom also ruined its scouting capability's - since you simply get shot at 1000-1500+ meters away - and they hurt.

The biggest issue for lights however is the pinpoint dmg of ballistics. Let it be from a big gun like an AC10/AC20 or synced ones, like 3 AC5/UAC5s, its too much for a light.

If anything armor values on lights should go up - or give them better means to avoid dmg all along:
- higher speeds
- better jumpjets
- better turning speed
- reduce hevys/assaults turning/twisting speed.

The impact of Pilot skill got reduced to a minimum, if you can am, most lights are not a threat especially if they are not too close(except the spider ofc).

Last but not least, a lot of weapons used to have minimum ranges, like the AC5, yet in MWO they don't have minimum ranges.

In the end, kills are far easier in an Atlas then in a Jenner these days.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 04 October 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Yeah because locking on behind cover or out of range where you can't fire at the target is a huge benefit...
It's not like it takes ages to get a lock when you can fire.

[Nryrony]

Livewyr, on 04 October 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Knockdowns!

If we reintroduce them, I want them for jjs to, - if you don't soften your fall you get knocked down - yes this includes Highlanders...

And if a light at full speed uses JJs and rams a Heavy/Assault on shoulder height there should be a chance to him to actually fall down.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 01:08 AM.

[Wolfways]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

I completely disagree on this matter.

What do you disagree with? My opinion that mechs should have more armour or that the conversion from TT to MWO gave lights an advantage (which is actually a fact and not my opinion so you can't really disagree with it)?
Your post is about how easy it is to kill lights, yet mine is about the game mechanics changing.

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Yeah why bother explaining when you can just be a {Richard Cameron} instead.

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

What do you disagree with? My opinion that mechs should have more armour or that the conversion from TT to MWO gave lights an advantage (which is actually a fact and not my opinion so you can't really disagree with it)?
Your post is about how easy it is to kill lights, yet mine is about the game mechanics changing.


Yeah why bother explaining when you can just be a {Richard Cameron} instead.

Mostly due to this

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Right...
MWO is based on the Battletech tabletop game and it uses the Battletech armour values for mechs (doubled).
In Battletech all damage from weapons fire is applied to a mechs components randomly. You roll 2D6 to see where your shot hit the enemy mech and damage from the weapon is applied to that component (i.e. side torso, head, right leg, etc.) Every time you fire any weapon you get the same chance to hit every component.


Imagine there's a match between a Jenner and an Atlas (just using these as examples but it applies to every mech). Both roll to hit their opponent and both roll to see where their weapons hit and apply damage.
Now, because they both have the same random chance to hit the enemy components the Atlas is at an advantage because all his components have more armour than the Jenners components, so the Jenner needs to hit the Atlas more often than the Atlas needs to hit the Jenner to remove armour from those components...unless (and this is important) one of them is lucky enough to roll on the same location multiple times and tear through that components armour.


So, the faster the mech the more it can spread the damage and survive.
This means that faster mechs have gained more defense by all mechs having the same armour values (doubled) as the tabletop game which was made for a random hit location table, not for players being able to choose where their shots hit.

Generally, lights recieved the biggest buff, followed by mediums, then heavies, then assaults.
This is why i believe that armour values (assuming PGI wished to stay somewhat true to the original values, which they've shown they do) should have been increased incrementally.


For example:
Lights - 25% increase.
Mediums - 50% increase.
Heavies - 75% increase.
Assaults - 100% increase.
(Obviously these are just random numbers i chose for the example. PGI would have to decide on the actual numbers used and through testing and gameplay adjust accordingly.)

I agree on the matter that we all lack armor in comparison, mechs die to fast for what they are. From this pov it would make sens reducing dmg or increase health.

But I don't see lights in an advantage here. The "best" mechs atm are heavys with ballistics hard-points, or some assaults.


Every thing else is at a disadvantage atm. Especially lights (I again exclude the spider..)

If anything lights need more armor in comparison, since they don't have the means to doge well aimed shots.

And they are forced to fight in close ranges, they simply cannot engage from 1800 meters away.


So usually this would mean backstabbing, yet this became harder and harder. Today its more luck then anything else. Luck that no one has SS and simply hunts you down.

BTW how much experience do you have actually piloting a light mech?

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Wolfways]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Mostly due to this

Which bit?
Everything there up to "This is why i believe..." isn't my opinion, it's fact.
If you disagree with what i said after that then that's fine, but i'd be interested in knowing why you disagree

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

Which bit?
Everything there up to "This is why i believe..." isn't my opinion, it's fact.
If you disagree with what i said after that then that's fine, but i'd be interested in knowing why you disagree

There are two things to consider here.

1. Yes we can and should orientate us on the TT rule set, for as long as its practical to do so.

2. Yet every mech should be roughly equal, otherwise there is no point in taking something else then max tonnage.

In TT mechs have a value and a tonnage - both of them reflect their actual battle value - more or less.

In MWO this doesn't exist, yes mechs have a price and a tonnage, yet it are only 12 players on the battlefield. So if you got 12 Atlati I don't get ~ 34 Jenners or 60 Commandos (weight balance) for them. (would be fun though)

This means, chances need to be roughly equal or we will end up playing stalker wars. Why else would anyone sacrifice his "player value" by piloting something from that he and his team benefits less?

And If you consider that then you know what I meant.

Not to mention, you completely removed movement as well as cover from your example... (to hit chance), which screws your facts.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Nryrony]

Jenner Hitbox




In comparison to say a Victor:


As one can clearly see, the Jenner CT is for its size very big. Just compare it to the Victors. In addition, you can hit his CT from multiple angels, mostly due to its very small ST. The ST of the Victor however helps shielding its CT, it also stands out a bit, reducing the possible angels of attack. His arms help him even more blocking shots aimed for CT.

Not that the CT between the legs ("the balls") are harder to hit on a moving target, since the legs will move and shield the CT. However on a non moving target its an easy spot to go for.

The Jenner might be smaller, but its harder for him to protect his CT. Also talking of pinpoint dmg, the Victors CT might be "bigger" but its also a lot slimmer on most parts. In comparison to that the Jenners CT even bigger then the victors...

In the end, lights lack speed and other ability's to actively doge fire. - Or we simply make big mechs and their arms turn and twist a lot slower.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 03:44 AM.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Yeah why bother explaining when you can just be a {Richard Cameron} instead.

I've tried math, I've tried reason, I've tried logic, but you just don't seem to (want to?) get it.

If you can't even understand why locking on with a lock-on, guaranteed-hit weapon while in cover is an advantage, I don't really see what would get through to you.

Hence, ridicule. Perhaps that will get you to think - and if not, at least the rest of us get a chuckle.

[Wolfways]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Not to mention, you completely removed movement as well as cover from your example... (to hit chance), which screws your facts.

They affect the to-hit roll. Do they affect the random damage location?

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

They affect the to-hit roll. Do they affect the random damage location?

If you don't hit you it won't come to applying dmg - so I say YES.

And again, what is you point? That an Atlas clearly beats a Jenner in TT and therefore should do the same in MWO?

If that's the case, every one will play that Atlas, whats the point?

Its about durability for each mech on the battlefield, including and excluding player skill. Armor is only a piece of the puzzle, not the Alpha and Omega and you simply cannot slice it out and exclude it from the whole picture.

Edited by Nryrony, 05 October 2013 - 04:02 AM.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 05 October 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I've tried math, I've tried reason, I've tried logic, but you just don't seem to (want to?) get it.

Because you don't get it. You keep posting stuff that has nothing to do with the OP. Everything i wrote about how TT transfered to MWO is fact...it's not debatable.
And as usual you, like others in this thread, keep "hinting" that i have an ulterior motive and want to nerf lights.

Quote

If you can't even understand why locking on with a lock-on, guaranteed-hit weapon while in cover is an advantage, I don't really see what would get through to you.

So you lock on...no guaranteed hit (because you're in cover)...so you have a lock. Great, now what?

Quote

Hence, ridicule. Perhaps that will get you to think - and if not, at least the rest of us get a chuckle.

Being ridiculed by a kid who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about (and at this point i'm pretty sure you're just arguing for the sake of arguing) means little to me.

[Wolfways]

Nryrony, on 05 October 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

If you don't hit you it won't come to applying dmg - so I say YES.

Getting a hit does not affect where on the target mech you hit.

Quote

And again, what is you point? That an Atlas clearly beats a Jenner in TT and therefore should do the same in MWO?

If that's the case, every one will play that Atlas, whats the point?

Its about durability for each mech on the battlefield, including and excluding player skill. Armor is only a piece of the puzzle, not the Alpha and Omega and you simply cannot slice it out and exclude it from the whole picture.

You just don't get it. I thought i made the OP simple enough for a child to understand but i guess that wasn't enough. There's no point in explaining again when you can't understand that simple explanation.

[TheUncle]

I hope you are not stating that the conversion from Tt to MWO went wrong, because in that case a light mech would never, unless crazily lucky, have a chance against the big dogs.

So I guess you still feel like Lights, or rather lighter Mechs in general are overpowered vs Assaults, in that speed is much more valuable than armor.
If that is the case, then i disagree. I actually find it great if the most expensive mech in a free to play game can be beaten by the least expensive if played well. This is not about being true to the lore, it's about fun and variety.

[Nryrony]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

Getting a hit does not affect where on the target mech you hit.


You just don't get it. I thought i made the OP simple enough for a child to understand but i guess that wasn't enough. There's no point in explaining again when you can't understand that simple explanation.

Actually I think your the one not getting the point.

You suggest, because a mech is bigger and possibly slower (hello 80kph Victor...), a smaller mech can simply chose where to put its dmg.

This is not a fact and its not true as well.

- It works both ways

Every mech has a higher chance of hitting a big mech - or a bigger location twice then on a smaller mech (at least when they move - otherwise it stays the same chance...).

But this doesn't mean that you roll dice when you hit a light mech, you too will hit a light mech multiple times in the same spot - thanks to aiming. (This excludes the Spider ofc.)

All you do is put things into the room and call them "facts", that's a fact.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Because you don't get it. You keep posting stuff that has nothing to do with the OP. Everything i wrote about how TT transfered to MWO is fact...it's not debatable.

It's very debatable, since several of your "facts" are wrong, and some key points omitted.

Here's just two of the issues with your "facts":

* "Every time you fire any weapon you get the same chance to hit every component."
- Wrong, the chance to hit a certain component depends on facing, and even within a certain facing there's a larger chance to hit certain components. E.g. the arms are twice as likely to get hits as the legs, the CT is twice as likely to get hit as a side torso; if you're firing from the left side you're much more likely to hit the left arm than the right, and so on.

* "The only thing that reduces your chance of reliably hitting the same component over and over is the speed of the target mech."
- Wrong. Also a factor is the speed of your 'mech, the environment (cover etc), and other 'mechs in the area.

You've glanced over torso twist, a major factor in heavier 'mech survivability, that doesn't really work as well for lights with their much lower armour values. Sure, twisting helps a bit for lighter 'mechs, but it's key to the heavier 'mech surviving longer than the second cooldown.

You've also left out what actually happens on snake-eyes in BT; Two lucky rolls (snake-eyes followed by boxcars) and you've one-shot an opponent, no matter what weapon did the firing, or what the tonnage difference between the two 'mech was.

But the most glaring omission of all is the fact that the heavier 'mech gets to aim too. And contrary to your belief, it's not all that hard to hit a light 'mech with our pixel-perfect accuracy. If people can reliably headshot other 'mechs, why do you think it would be an issue to hit a light in the CT twice?

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

So you lock on...no guaranteed hit (because you're in cover)...so you have a lock. Great, now what?

Please, please don't tell me that you think lock-on times with SSRMs are irrelevant?

Wolfways, on 05 October 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Being ridiculed by a kid who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about (and at this point i'm pretty sure you're just arguing for the sake of arguing) means little to me.

Heh, thanks. It's been a while since anyone called me a kid - and since I'm feeling my years this morning (really stiff neck), I needed a good chuckle.

Edited by stjobe, 05 October 2013 - 04:35 AM.