127 replies to this topic

[Hodo]

feor, on 12 November 2011 - 11:12 PM, said:

What does shooting an enemy's leg have to do with not playing like a Clan Warrior? If you're dumb enough to approach me through the open, when I have a targeting computer and can call a shot on your leg you deserve what you get. Same with letting me get behind you. Or running your mech till you shut down. Zellbriggen is not about letting your opponent get away with stupid things, zellbriggen is about making warfare a personal thing between two warriors, not some faceless mass warfare mindless slaughter like what happened in the first and second succession wars and the Amaris coup.

I'd say your problem is not that you hate clanners, I'd say your problem is you play with power gamers who use "being clan" as an excuse to break the game.

If I recall Zellbriggen is not about making fights personal, its about reducing the waste of warfare. If your opponent shuts down his mech, you are to give him a honorable end and kill the pilot with a well placed cockpit shot, and not blow the mech to kingdom come because you can. If your opponent is legged and no longer to move, you are to offer him a honorable surrender and the chance to become a bondsman, or kill the pilot and save the mech from further damage.

Last part of your statement is the trueth. But, there is a larger number of those players who play clans than there are those who play a IS player.

[GreyGriffin]

Zellbrigen actually discourages the killing of pilots as well as the destruction of materiel. Look up safcon and hagira, sometime.

[Hodo]

GreyGriffin, on 13 November 2011 - 01:18 AM, said:

Zellbrigen actually discourages the killing of pilots as well as the destruction of materiel. Look up safcon and hagira, sometime.

You are right it did discourage useless killing. But it was not about "making war a one on one affair". It was all about reducing waste.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Kayve Fawkes, on 12 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

In my experience, those who professed a love of the Clan way, failed to live by the Clan way. The rapid embrace of the Clans and their "culture" usually masks the side effect of coming into possession of advanced and superior weaponry. Too many times I have seen so-called "Clanners" get frustrated in battle and resort to a timely "legging", usually from a long range with superior weapons. Until I see players adhering to the Clan culture, regardless of what it costs in game, then I will always consider "Clanner" players to be those who only play with the superior tech.

I am insulted.

I am Star Captain Alizabeth Kotare of Clan Smoke Jaguar. I pilot the sole Ebon Jaguar in Delta Galaxy's Gamma Star. I hereby declare a trial of grievance and invoke the ritual of zellbrigen and challenge you to a dual of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!

[Duffanichta]

MW does not equal BT..... I am getting tired of saying that.... -.-

[feor]

Hodo, on 13 November 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:

You are right it did discourage useless killing. But it was not about "making war a one on one affair". It was all about reducing waste.

And it reduced waste by making it a one on one affair. You don't carpet bomb the enemy from orbit, you go out and you face him one on one away from civilians.

[Starkiller]

Incorrect, MW and BT are the same thing just different versions. That is like saying College Football is not Football because it is not the NFL or CFL, such a silly statement really.

In the end the Clans did ruin alot of the BT universe and it took many years to find some sort of balance, but even then it does not always work out. BV is a good stepping stone but not the end all be all of balance. Fought one at a time a Daishi can non stop (as in no repairing) DESTROY an IS 3025 Assault Company and the BV is on average about 4x more for the IS. All 12 at one time might be a tad bit tougher, but with enough room to manuver it is still quite easy for the Daishi to completely destroy them all. Run the Widowmaker Variant and test it yourself. If the Daishi has range, it takes out an IS Assault mech every or every other round.

On the other hand, I have cleaned out a Clan Heavy Star with an Axman. That was in TT in a City environment and I was disabled at the end, but managed to pull a victory. That same battle would not happen in an online sim game with the Axman coming out on top, yes they fought 1v1 according to Zellbrigen before ya ask.

At the end of the day BV is ok for TT as long as the terrain favors the IS being able to make range on the Clans, but if it becomes an open ranged fight, IS will lose regardless of BV. Before you try and tell me I do not know what I am talking about, I was a Marauder and taught people to play and ran tournaments for years. There are always exceptions to the rule but that is never the majority of the time.

[Starkiller]

feor, on 12 November 2011 - 11:12 PM, said:

People claiming that Clans "ruined" battletech and "destroyed the franchise" need to go do something unpleasant to themselves. Change is not bad and while, yes, you can power game with Clantech, you can also powergame with Inner Sphere tech. Even Inner Sphere 3050 tech. It's only a matter of degrees, and how much effort you have to put in to break the game.

What does shooting an enemy's leg have to do with not playing like a Clan Warrior?

Myself and all my friends from my BT gaming group thought the Clans ruined the game for years and still do and love the game and probably supported it more than you ever have financially. I have almost every piece of printed literature for the game and almost every single mech ever produced, I even have 3 scale model Dropships, 2 are officially produced items and bought every PC version offered of the game as well. Did you ever or are you now financially supporting the franchise to even close to this standard? If not why is it you think your opinion means so much more that you "wish physical harm" to those that have supported the franchies and do not agree with your juvenille opinion.

Also, does your opponent have the means or equipment to do the same thing back to you? If not, then it is against Zellbrigen to leg someone. If you are legging IS mechs without TCs able to do the same you are Dezgra Quiaff?

[Cryptoknight]

Why not start this in 3015 or 3025 and then advance it at the rate of 1 month = 1 year of BT universe time? By 1 year after release we'd hit 3037, 3049 in 2 years and then if they want they could slow it down to 2 months = 1 year of BT universe time.

[feor]

Starkiller, on 13 November 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

Myself and all my friends from my BT gaming group thought the Clans ruined the game for years and still do and love the game and probably supported it more than you ever have financially. I have almost every piece of printed literature for the game and almost every single mech ever produced, I even have 3 scale model Dropships, 2 are officially produced items and bought every PC version offered of the game as well. Did you ever or are you now financially supporting the franchise to even close to this standard? If not why is it you think your opinion means so much more that you "wish physical harm" to those that have supported the franchies and do not agree with your juvenille opinion.

Firstly, I never wished physical harm on anyone. I said "do something unpleasant to themselves". They could go put Beiber on loop at max volume for all I care.

As for financially support the franchise, no I have not to that extent. Largely because I've never had a steady income above $15/hr. However the fact that I don't have as much money as you, or am old enough to have been playing as long as you, hardly means that my opinion is any less valid than yours. {insert witty "Occupy Outreach!" joke here}

In regards to my "juvenile opinion", I'm not the one threatening to hunt people down and make their game experience unpleasant, just because they happen to like a different part of the universe than I do.

Quote

Also, does your opponent have the means or equipment to do the same thing back to you? If not, then it is against Zellbrigen to leg someone. If you are legging IS mechs without TCs able to do the same you are Dezgra Quiaff?

Hardly, your opponent doesn't get a free pass because you're using Honour rules. If two clanners are fighting, one in a Warhawk Prime and one in a Executioner D, the Warhawk is not beholden to hold his fire until the Executioner's weapons are in range. The Executioner is expected to use the terrain and his mech's mobility to ensure the Warhawk does not get a shot until he can strike back. And exploiting the Executioner's range weakness would be seen as a mark of a good tactician on the part of the Warhawk's pilot.

[Starkiller]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

Firstly, I never wished physical harm on anyone. I said "do something unpleasant to themselves". They could go put Beiber on loop at max volume for all I care.

As for financially support the franchise, no I have not to that extent. Largely because I've never had a steady income above $15/hr. However the fact that I don't have as much money as you, or am old enough to have been playing as long as you, hardly means that my opinion is any less valid than yours. {insert witty "Occupy Outreach!" joke here}

In regards to my "juvenile opinion", I'm not the one threatening to hunt people down and make their game experience unpleasant, just because they happen to like a different part of the universe than I do.



Hardly, your opponent doesn't get a free pass because you're using Honour rules. If two clanners are fighting, one in a Warhawk Prime and one in a Executioner D, the Warhawk is not beholden to hold his fire until the Executioner's weapons are in range. The Executioner is expected to use the terrain and his mech's mobility to ensure the Warhawk does not get a shot until he can strike back. And exploiting the Executioner's range weakness would be seen as a mark of a good tactician on the part of the Warhawk's pilot.

Your intention was quite clear regardless of the words you used when put in full context So as you said your opinion is no more valid than mine, said for yours pal, point proven. Do not discount the opinions of those people that did support the franchise and keep it alive all these years.

I NEVER threatened anyone, check whose posts you are referencing before quoting.

Far as Zellbrigen goes you are WRONG, the IS pilot does not have the option of using the advanced TC while the Clan pilot does. We were all referencing IS vs Clan for rules of Zellbrigen there, not Clan on Clan. Totally different circumstances.

[feor]

Starkiller, on 13 November 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

Your intention was quite clear regardless of the words you used when put in full context So as you said your opinion is no more valid than mine, said for yours pal, point proven. Do not discount the opinions of those people that did support the franchise and keep it alive all these years.

I NEVER threatened anyone, check whose posts you are referencing before quoting.

I apologize, without Avatars various posters blend into each other.

I don't mean to discount the opinion, however people who want to just redact a rather large portion of the game universe and pretend it never happend just because they don't like it and have had bad experiences with people abusing it annoying the living bejeebus out of me.

Quote

Far as Zellbrigen goes you are WRONG, the IS pilot does not have the option of using the advanced TC while the Clan pilot does. We were all referencing IS vs Clan for rules of Zellbrigen there, not Clan on Clan. Totally different circumstances.

I think you're confusing "dishonorable" (i.e. causing your standing amongst your peers to drop) with "not honourable" (i.e. not gaining standing amongst your peers). A Clan pilot legging a Spheroid mech from outside the spheroid's reach would not earn great accolades, but it wouldn't be considered a dishonorable thing to do. If the it's the opening shot of the fight, then his fellow clan warriors would probably look down on it a bit, but it would still not be outright dezgra, just kind of... disappointing's not quite the right word for it, but something like that. If the fight has been going on long enough that the Clan pilot is getting frustrated, however, and he proceeds to move out of his opponent's range and snipe his leg off, then his fellow warriors would at least respect him for identifying a weakness in his opponent (limited range) and moving to take advantage of that weakness.

The only times I can think of that legging your opponent when he can't retaliate would be outright dishonorable would be if your opponent didn't know you were there (a cowardly strike without a proper challenge being issued), or if the legged mech was actively engaged with another warrior when you took the shot. (besmirching your own honour and insulting the honour of the warrior the target was already fighting)

[Aidan Mcfay]

I think the time line as is is perfect. For some reason, I don't believe the impending clan invasion is going to be as devastating as ye doomsayers seem to think. The tech is advanced, however I don't think it will lean to far in the favor of the clans to really hurt us. This seems to be a Reboot of the invasion so from this point forward it is up to us to make history and I believe the Devs will have it be fair and balanced or no one will really spend money on this game.

The clans need the IS and the IS need the clans. Otherwise it will be pointless and not fun.

No fun < Money/Fun

[Starkiller]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 12:35 PM, said:

I apologize, without Avatars various posters blend into each other.

I don't mean to discount the opinion, however people who want to just redact a rather large portion of the game universe and pretend it never happend just because they don't like it and have had bad experiences with people abusing it annoying the living bejeebus out of me.



I think you're confusing "dishonorable" (i.e. causing your standing amongst your peers to drop) with "not honourable" (i.e. not gaining standing amongst your peers). A Clan pilot legging a Spheroid mech from outside the spheroid's reach would not earn great accolades, but it wouldn't be considered a dishonorable thing to do. If the it's the opening shot of the fight, then his fellow clan warriors would probably look down on it a bit, but it would still not be outright dezgra, just kind of... disappointing's not quite the right word for it, but something like that. If the fight has been going on long enough that the Clan pilot is getting frustrated, however, and he proceeds to move out of his opponent's range and snipe his leg off, then his fellow warriors would at least respect him for identifying a weakness in his opponent (limited range) and moving to take advantage of that weakness.

The only times I can think of that legging your opponent when he can't retaliate would be outright dishonorable would be if your opponent didn't know you were there (a cowardly strike without a proper challenge being issued), or if the legged mech was actively engaged with another warrior when you took the shot. (besmirching your own honour and insulting the honour of the warrior the target was already fighting)

That is all more of a matter of opinion and what Clan you belong too. In my opinion as a Ghost Bear, legging a Spheroid in a 1v1 duel that was declared would most definitely be Dezgra as the Spheroid has no chance to retaliate in the same. You would just be using technology to beat your opponent and not true skill, very dishonorable.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Kayve Fawkes, on 12 November 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

In my experience, those who professed a love of the Clan way, failed to live by the Clan way. The rapid embrace of the Clans and their "culture" usually masks the side effect of coming into possession of advanced and superior weaponry. Too many times I have seen so-called "Clanners" get frustrated in battle and resort to a timely "legging", usually from a long range with superior weapons. Until I see players adhering to the Clan culture, regardless of what it costs in game, then I will always consider "Clanner" players to be those who only play with the superior tech.

Clearly you know little or nothing about the Clans. Perhaps you should have asked a question forst before jumping to conclusions. Legging is NOT dishonorable. It is in fact encouraged as it disables a mech quickly, allowing the warrior to move on to another target. Also legging spares the life of the downed pilot. A Clan player does not have to be frustrated to leg you. A leg is a part of the mech herego it will get shot. Deal with it. This whole "legging is dishonorable" started with whiny noobs from MW3 because in that game a mech that lost its leg, is destroyed. It does not limp on that leg like in MW4. If I remember the Somerset Striker cartoon correctly, the first shot by a clan mech in the Somerset campaign was a leg shot. I will find the video, mark it at the shot, then edit this post.

feor & starkiller, I have no idea where you guys got that idea from. The clans MADE the range of their weapons longer. Why would it be dishonorable for them to use the extended range? It is what it was made for. By that logic you might as well remove clan tech.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 November 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sorry double posted by accident.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 November 2011 - 03:29 PM.

[Kayve Fawkes]

There was never a need to "ask a question first" Winson. We all know, protests aside, that there are those who only play as Clanners so that they will have access to Clan Tech. Whether "Legging" is a frowned upon tactic or not, it was declared to be such by many Clan players over a decade ago. It may not follow lore, but it was an accepted truth to players. Many Clans did remove players who would consistantly leg their opponents, or use questionable tactics. In the IS, such tactics lead to survival and victory. Doesn't anyone recall in MW4 Mercs, the lament of the Clan Commander about having to fight the barbarians? Or how you were more celebrated for taking down the clanners in a straight up fight? Even Takashi Kurita ordered his generals to commit seppuku for fighting the Clanners by the Clan's rules. Single combat where the Drac mechs were overwhelmed and destroyed by superior weaponry and technology. None of those mechs were legged. They were utterly destroyed.
Sure, we will deal with the inevitable invasion. Unlike the IS, we have an idea of what to expect. My point is, there are going to be those who flock to the Clans, who will not be "of the Clans". We know this and we accept this. I don't claim to be an expert on the Clans. But having played these games for the better part of three decades, I can say I know gamers pretty well. I can always refresh by reading Stackpole's novels. Even in Lore, some of the Clanners weren't quite as honorable as generally believed. As for the Somerset Strikers.... http://youtu.be/YqzEssjkMeU 2:34 the first shot fired by the Clanner is to the Left Torso of the Centurion...after he was chided by his fellow Clanner for dishonorable tactics.

[feor]

Using the Sommerset Strikers cartoon as justification for ANYTHING is very nearly a crime against Battletechmanity.

The entire series was essentially decanonized as a wildly glorified and outlandish in-universe show about the activities of the real 1st Strikers. it'd be like citing "300" as an example of how the ancient Persian empire actually did battle.

As to the legging being (dis)honorable, I'm arguing it isn't either, it just is. If your opponent has a technological disadvantage the burden is on him to overcome it, not on your to handicap yourself for his benefit. (barring, of course, that you bid yourself into a handicap in the first place) Zellbriggen is far to complex to simply state "doing X is dishonorable." When? Why? What are the circumstances? What was agreed to before the Trial? WAS there a trial or was it a dezgra sneak attack by your foe? It's an extremely complex issue with a lot of different interpretations.

[Amechwarrior]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 05:11 PM, said:

Using the Sommerset Strikers cartoon as justification for ANYTHING is very nearly a crime against Battletechmanity.

Battletechmanity! Why is no one making endless threads about how we should all eject if we get hit in the 'mech crotch, the developers better give us a true simulation of the canon cartoon show! This is the only pure and correct interpretation of Battletech or else they would not have named the Table Top rules after it!

[Hodo]

feor, on 13 November 2011 - 06:49 AM, said:

And it reduced waste by making it a one on one affair. You don't carpet bomb the enemy from orbit, you go out and you face him one on one away from civilians.

Tell this to the people of Turtle Bay. 1mil dead after a Smoke Jaguar orbital strike on Edo the capital city.