427 replies to this topic

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I run mediums to keep my ELO low so I don't get stuck with the meta-tards.

[Artgathan]

lockwoodx, on 11 November 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

I run mediums to keep my ELO low so I don't get stuck with the meta-tards.

If I remember correctly, Elo is determined by weight class - so that you really have 4 Elo scores (light, medium, heavy, assault), so this approach would not actually keep you from being stuck with the "meta-tards".

[Joseph Mallan]

Taking away the Mechs I paid good money for MIGHT work. Then again it MIGHT make me uninstall and focus on other things.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 November 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

They should just put something into the game akin to old fighting games in the arcade like Street Fighter 2 or Mortal Kombat: Random Select!

You know the stud--the dude who walks up to the machine, slaps a quarter on the glass and gives you both a three-mile stare. His hands are calloused and he looks like he hasn't changed his jacket in a month. One of you loses and he steps up. He cracks his knuckles, titls his neck to the side, hawks a loogie and swallows--then grins, moving his controller to the corner and presses start.

Round and round the select box goes but as lady luck has it, it stops on Guy. He says nothing but stares straight ahead. You clobber him the first round and think--hey, this guy isn't so bad. The second round is a struggle and then the third... you don't even hit him once. He murders you. You think--Hey! I can beat him. So you pump more money in, so do the other dudes. This goes on for an hour... but nobody can win. It is always close for a round or two but then he pulls it out. Every time.

Eventually everyone leaves realizing they've just been hustled by a pro.

Studs use random select. What if MWO implemented it? You put your four mechs that you'd like to run in dropship--one of each weight class. Front-loading it with all assault chassis is not permitted. If you don't have four, well, then you get the rest of the slots filled with trials.

You hit launch. Bam! It cycles til it finds you a game and you're stuck with what you get.

I call this... pro-mode.

That'd be pretty awesome. It'd also lead to more diversity, especially if you couple that with tonnage limits + matching.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 11 November 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[oldradagast]

Scaling is a problem with mediums: 3 of them are easily too big (Shadowhawk, Centurion, and Kintaro), though at least decent hitboxes are keeping some of the playable. Arguably, the Cicada is also too large. No other weight class has this problem. Heavies have Quickdraws that are too large and the newly-oversized Catapult with warp-nacelle ears. Assaults have... well, Awesomes are a bit too wide, while Stalkers are too small. So, mediums get the worst end of the scaling deal.

Other than that, the speed difference between a combat-worthy medium and a light is huge. A good medium can get up to 90 kph, a heavy is typically around 70, and an assault between 50 and 60 - none of this counts really fast builds. Meanwhile, lights are cruising at 130+ so it's hard to say the role of a medium is to "kill lights" when that only comes into play if you can catch them. Not saying it can't be done, but spending all fight chasing the squirrel isn't a good idea.

I still say mediums are better than the stats would say, but they require a more flexible role in the battle - the pilot has to be willing to do ANYTHING from one match to the next: cap, fend off lights, brawl, snipe, etc. This complexity in roles combined with oversized - and thus easily hit - models discourages people from playing mediums. It's also just plain easier to hop in a tougher mech with a billion AC's and PPC's and just clobber stuff.

[Prezimonto]

The biggest reason mediums are in a bad place is raw damage out put on pin point areas.

The rampant upgrades: ENDO/DHS/FF/XL engines allows nearly every mech on the field to carry nearly 2x the amount of weapons the base table top game was designed around. Add to that pin point damage that only needs a modicum of aim, and that mediums aren't fast enough to disrupt most people's aim and you have a mech in a bad situation.

My solution in suggestions is to make the "standard" upgrades give bonuses to internal structure, and turn FF into a defensive upgrade (allowing a person to stack extra armor on a mech) as we don't actually have many or any options to improve defense.
http://mwomercs.com/...-survivability/
~80%+ internal HP on the CT or more with a bigger engine that has more standard heat sinks.

I think this would give more players pause in choosing to upgrade or not (and thereby choose a situation where the medium is more viable).

Everything in the game pushes is to larger damage, it's time we added options for more defense, and better yet forced players to make choices about which way they want to play.

It also greatly helps most trial mechs, and helps new players stick in a game long to learn the ropes.

[Terror Teddy]

Simple.

1: Stop having engine rating affects a mechs turn and twist ratio.

Let those values be fixed as those values are an inherent limit to each chassi.
This would mean that a medium mech would always be faster on the turn and twist while the assaults and heavies would be harder to use in close combat.

Assault Mechs are designed to be the heavily armed fortress with a shitload of guns and take damage - It does not mean it's a "tank" and should be a brawler - that's for faster heavies but more importantly Mediums.

The rank and file of mechs are lights and mediums simply due to the COST of maintaining them in the field.

2. Drop weight limit. (Explains itself)

3. Class limit -Give actual options to edit what kind of fights one wants.
Only assaults, sure
Only Mediums, sure
Only lights versus mediums, sure
Assaults vs only lights, sure

GIVE.US.OPTIONS.

[Sug]

Get rid of Speed Tweak.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sug, on 11 November 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

Get rid of Speed Tweak.

That wouldn't do it for me... I drive an Assault because of the armor an weapon allowance not the speed.

[focuspark]

Favorite mechs are (in order of discovery) Commando, Centurion, and Shadow Hawk.

Commando because it's fast and I have a TDK (love it!)
Centurion because it's skinny, packs a nasty punch, and the shield arm is everything
Shadow hawk because it's basically a centurion with jump jets and crappy shield arm

I state this because I'm biased and transparency is good. That said...

Scale medium 'mechs to be 10% smaller (geometry & hitbox). I know this is hard, but do it anyways. This makes them so much more viable and survivable. People will play them more because they'll be very useful.

Today, in a medium, I avoid lights and go after the assaults because I'm more likely to get a kill vs an assault where as in a medium I'm just an under-powered, under-gunned "heavy" which is just as big but easier target than a real heavy.

[Wolfways]

Mister Blastman, on 11 November 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Studs use random select. What if MWO implemented it? You put your four mechs that you'd like to run in dropship--one of each weight class. Front-loading it with all assault chassis is not permitted. If you don't have four, well, then you get the rest of the slots filled with trials.

You hit launch. Bam! It cycles til it finds you a game and you're stuck with what you get.

I call this... pro-mode.

I call it quit the match because i got a mech i don't like mode

[Murzao]

Just requires weight limits really. Because 2 Centurions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1 Highlander or Atlas by a country mile. Wouldn't even be a fair fight, as I can 1v1 a Highlander or Atlas myself easily. It just becomes difficult when the entire enemy team is that and it feels like I'm storming the beaches of Normandy.

[Mister Blastman]

Wolfways, on 11 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I call it quit the match because i got a mech i don't like mode

I guess you aren't a stud then.

In the arcades... you made do with whatever you were dealt.

[Artgathan]

Murzao, on 11 November 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Just requires weight limits really. Because 2 Centurions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1 Highlander or Atlas by a country mile. Wouldn't even be a fair fight, as I can 1v1 a Highlander or Atlas myself easily. It just becomes difficult when the entire enemy team is that and it feels like I'm storming the beaches of Normandy.

2 of anything is typically superior to a solo opponent in fights. That said, your solution would require different team dyanimcs (IE: permitting 24 v 12) in order to be effective. Given the same number of pilots, absolute team tonnage matters.

[Diego Angelus]

I also feel mediums are slow I mean Victor can go as fast as hunch and their hight is similar.

[Joseph Mallan]

Murzao, on 11 November 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

Just requires weight limits really. Because 2 Centurions>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1 Highlander or Atlas by a country mile. Wouldn't even be a fair fight, as I can 1v1 a Highlander or Atlas myself easily. It just becomes difficult when the entire enemy team is that and it feels like I'm storming the beaches of Normandy.

You know there player who play scenarios like this all the time right?

[Khobai]

Quote

I also feel mediums are slow

Because they are. The problem is raising the max engine cap doesnt help mediums much because they still have to free up the tonnage for larger engines.

Thats why the first major step for fixing medium mechs has to come primarily from the mech skill tree. All weight classes should have unique skill trees. That should be the first major step towards implementing role warfare. It makes no sense that an assault mech has anchor turn or speed tweak for example, that's just laziness on PGI's behalf.

The second major step should be implementing specialized roles, each with their own skill trees, like recon/strike/command/assault/support, etc... which directly influence what active/passive abilities you have and what modules you can use. Before you play each game you should have to choose a role and then choose a mech and you should be able switch roles in between games as easily as you can switch mechs. Mediums should also get the most module slots and they should be allowed to mix and match abilties/modules from different roles to a certain degree. This would give them a lot of versatility which is how its supposed to be.

Edited by Khobai, 11 November 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

Khobai, on 11 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Because they are. The problem is raising the max engine cap doesnt help mediums much because they still have to free up the tonnage for larger engines.

Thats why the first major step for fixing medium mechs has to come primarily from the mech skill tree. All weight classes should have unique skill trees. That should be the first major step towards implementing role warfare. It makes no sense that an assault mech has anchor turn or speed tweak for example, that's just laziness on PGI's behalf.

The second major step should be implementing specialized roles, each with their own skill trees, like recon/strike/command/assault/support, etc... which directly influence what active/passive abilities you have and what modules you can use. Before you play each game you should have to choose a role and then choose a mech and you should be able switch roles in between games as easily as you can switch mechs. Mediums should also get the most module slots and they should be allowed to mix and match abilties/modules from different roles to a certain degree. This would give them a lot of versatility which is how its supposed to be.

I see with skill trees pgi should be able to modify mediums to be more effective, it seams like that is very good and easy way to fix mediums.

[Navy Sixes]

Obviously, in developing mediums, the problem is that they've made them the worst of all worlds. They're as big as assaults with half the armor. They're as slow as heavies with half the firepower. The only way to make them fast enough to engage a light is to drop in a huge XL engine and then it loses most of it's offensive capability and becomes even more vulnerable in its STs. Add to this the fact that any player can drive any mech and trick them out with any equipment they want, and there's really no reason to run a medium when you can run another class that does whatever you want to do better. Sure, it makes for a more challenging game experience, and I always feel like a straight ace when I do well in a medium, but in tangible game terms I don't get anything for three kills and +600 dmg in a Cent that I don't get for three kills and +600 dmg in an Atlas, except a lot more work.

-Make them faster and more maneuverable so they can effectively counter lights
-Scale them smaller and/or give them more potential armor so they can more effectively skirmish with heavies/assaults.
-A tonnage limit system (with minimums as well as maximums) that limit the number of extreme-end mechs on the field.
-XP/C-Bill bonuses should somehow be tied to weight differences. Bringing down a Victor in a Hunchback should be worth more than bringing down a Victor in an Atlas.

I'm not talking about "superbuffs;" lights should still be faster and more manueverable than mediums, and heavies/assaults should still have more armor and firepower, but as they stand right now the disparities are too vast to make the medium weight class viable.

As for tonnage limits, ideally they would have a separate "unlimited" PUG for everyone who just paid real money for their Battlemaster/Boar's Head and wants to run it (valid), as well as everyone who won't play unless they can run a Highlander poptart (lame).

[Murzao]

@Mallan Honestly I rage more at the sh!tty assault/heavy pilots that go facetank and die in 3 seconds than some phantom 1/20 weight mismatch game. People who think they need to be in an assault/heavy just to be 'competitive' are very very bad players. I can handle going 1v1 vs anyone in my mediums. I can even handle most 1v2s vs 2 Jenners or 2 assaults as long as I can pillar hump something. It only starts getting hard at 1v3, some would say that is working as intended....and it is.

@Khobai, Medium mechs are already superior in 1v1 brawls. They don't really need extra perks. Their falloff is due to a poor 'force multiplier' effect because they have a spread of different weapon systems (or their boats are all short range)

What really ****** me off is that basecap rate supernerf so now I need 3 people with me to drop the speed anytime fast, before I could win the game singlehandedly even if 2 silly Jenners came back for an attempted base defense. Biggest medium nerf ever.