427 replies to this topic

[Diego Angelus]

Phromethius, on 12 November 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

what I don't understand is that scaling 3D models is NOT hard to do. AND on top of that the surfaces are all UV mapping anyway which are directly related to the scale of the polygons on a flattened map.

Scale the mechs, export a new scaled UV map and just photoshop that bidness down to size. The textures will still translate very well. I work with 3D and got my eduction in that field and saying that it is difficult to do seems like BS to me.

Battlemasters and Atlases are the ONLY Heavy/Assaults mechs that my Hunchback seems scaled to correctly. And I am not even getting started on the Shadow Hawk. (Im not saying the Hunchback needs work, only what I feel from 1pv.) But Cent, Kint, Treb, Shadhawk etc. needs to be a lot smaller in profile and height.

Hunch has serious issue with its size because its big as Heavy and has that big shoulder that looks like it can hold Long tom not AC20 just compare how big ac20 is on other mechs. If Hunchback was a lot smaller then size of hunch would be reasonable.

[Sug]

Diego Angelus, on 11 November 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I also feel mediums are slow I mean Victor can go as fast as hunch and their hight is similar.

Which is why I say remove Speed Tweak from the Heavy and Assault trees. Assaults are running around at 75-80kph and meds can't get away unless they're 80% engine.

[dal10]

mediums basically just need to be smaller.

[YueFei]

Diego Angelus, on 11 November 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I agree on map part and football analogy, but I disagree when it comes to medium mechs because they don't have anything going for them. As things are now there is not a single reason to take medium unless you have tonnage limitation. Why take hunch with big week point over Victor that hits harder has same speed better armor and on top of that can use JJs hell they are even same height. There are some serious issues with mediums. Even if you put them on bigger maps there is still no reason to use them over other classes

Not quite. Medium mechs have a strategic speed advantage. For example, take a Hunchback with AC/20 + Medium Lasers. Build a Cataphract with comparable loadout, including the use of a STD engine just like the Hunchy. The Hunchback will move about 8 kph faster. Yes, the Cataphract has more armor, an extra heat sink or two, etc., but the Hunchback always has that tiny speed edge.

In a 300 meter sprint, the Hunchback wins by 1 second. Not likely to be significant. Change that to a 3000 meter hike, and the Hunchback arrives 12 seconds sooner than the Cataphract. Enough to fire 3 salvos into an ensuing firefight. In a game mode where speed matters, and forces must split up, the ability to rapidly shift the balance of your forces becomes a significant factor.

[El Bandito]

Phromethius, on 12 November 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

what I don't understand is that scaling 3D models is NOT hard to do. AND on top of that the surfaces are all UV mapping anyway which are directly related to the scale of the polygons on a flattened map.

Scale the mechs, export a new scaled UV map and just photoshop that bidness down to size. The textures will still translate very well. I work with 3D and got my eduction in that field and saying that it is difficult to do seems like BS to me.

Battlemasters and Atlases are the ONLY Heavy/Assaults mechs that my Hunchback seems scaled to correctly. And I am not even getting started on the Shadow Hawk. (Im not saying the Hunchback needs work, only what I feel from 1pv.) But Cent, Kint, Treb, Shadhawk etc. needs to be a lot smaller in profile and height.

It is not too hard but it is also not as simple as you think. Resizing the mech itself is easy, but then you will have to recalibrate the position from where the weapons will fire because size change will affect that. There is also the hit-box issues and model movement under new size issues...etc.

Currently PGI is busy churning out the Phoenix mechs as well as new hero mechs. They simply do not consider it worthy in terms of time and money, to rescale the mechs they released. Bummer, I know, but money talks. Our best hope is that one of the modeling guy will make rescaling his side project, but that is doubtful.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 November 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yes and those changes are completely the exact thing that would happen if tonnage was directly correlated to mech volume.

Mass does not equate to volume.

While I agree that several mechs should have their proportions revised, I do not believe that a mechs tonnage should be a strict determination. I am perfectly fine with a shadowhawk being taller than a dragon, or a cicada's torso being larger than a jenner's. However when it's a rather large deviation from how the mech is originally portrayed, such as the centurion, I think PGI made a mistake.

I agree that some of the mediums are to large in at least one dimension. Centurions are way to wide, and could be slightly taller, Trebuchets could be shortened a tad, and the blackjack could be slightly taller while thing it a bit.

Some of these are issues I have with medium mechs being to large, but mostly it's an aesthetic criticism. Except for the hips and legs. A lost of mechs regardless of class have a huge pelvis that should not be so large. The Raven is a perfect example of a mech with a pelvis that is to large.

[Diego Angelus]

YueFei, on 12 November 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Not quite. Medium mechs have a strategic speed advantage. For example, take a Hunchback with AC/20 + Medium Lasers. Build a Cataphract with comparable loadout, including the use of a STD engine just like the Hunchy. The Hunchback will move about 8 kph faster. Yes, the Cataphract has more armor, an extra heat sink or two, etc., but the Hunchback always has that tiny speed edge.

In a 300 meter sprint, the Hunchback wins by 1 second. Not likely to be significant. Change that to a 3000 meter hike, and the Hunchback arrives 12 seconds sooner than the Cataphract. Enough to fire 3 salvos into an ensuing firefight. In a game mode where speed matters, and forces must split up, the ability to rapidly shift the balance of your forces becomes a significant factor.

Point is mediums don't have that advantage you can put biggest standard engine on cataphract and add same weapons like on hunch and moves with same speed with bigger armor and no giant week spot. Try it out in mech lab and you will see why mediums don't have anything going for them.

[YueFei]

Diego Angelus, on 13 November 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

Point is mediums don't have that advantage you can put biggest standard engine on cataphract and add same weapons like on hunch and moves with same speed with bigger armor and no giant week spot. Try it out in mech lab and you will see why mediums don't have anything going for them.

Nope. Hunchback will always be a little bit faster.

There's speed/tonnage/payload curves, ya know. I have builds for both, the Cataphract going 82.7 and the Hunchback going 90.9 kph. The Cataphract can give up 3.5 tons of payload to hit its max engine and go 86.6kph. But then the Hunchback can give up less, losing 1.5 tons of payload to maintain an 8 kph speed advantage, reaching 94.4 kph.

It becomes less and less efficient trying to make a heavier mech move faster. After a certain point, your mech is all engine. Look what happens if you shove a STD400 into an Atlas. And even with that monster engine you're still slower than someone in a lighter weight class.

[oldradagast]

Diego Angelus, on 12 November 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Hunch has serious issue with its size because its big as Heavy and has that big shoulder that looks like it can hold Long tom not AC20 just compare how big ac20 is on other mechs. If Hunchback was a lot smaller then size of hunch would be reasonable.

Overall, the Hunchback is sized about right, which is a lot better than most Mediums... which are oddly AT LEAST as large as Heavies, if not close to assault size. The shoulder pod is huge and a weakness... it could be smaller, certainly. For a real laugh, look at how tiny the AC20 is on a Blackjack, like the champion trial mech, and then puzzle over why the Hunchback needs a monster should pod!

[Diego Angelus]

YueFei, on 13 November 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nope. Hunchback will always be a little bit faster.

There's speed/tonnage/payload curves, ya know. I have builds for both, the Cataphract going 82.7 and the Hunchback going 90.9 kph. The Cataphract can give up 3.5 tons of payload to hit its max engine and go 86.6kph. But then the Hunchback can give up less, losing 1.5 tons of payload to maintain an 8 kph speed advantage, reaching 94.4 kph.

It becomes less and less efficient trying to make a heavier mech move faster. After a certain point, your mech is all engine. Look what happens if you shove a STD400 into an Atlas. And even with that monster engine you're still slower than someone in a lighter weight class.

I wasn't able to put engines bigger then 250 in my hunchbacks if I do I lose a lot of firepower so I get 3-4 kph difference.

[Butane9000]

Honestly I've come to use mediums as assist mechs.

Either you run anti-light defense for your support mechs (LRMs, Long range direct fire) or you run along side your heavies and assaults.

Focus more on lights and mediums then you do heavies and assaults and you'll usually do better. However keep an eye out for shots of opportunity. Especially if you have a big weapon like a AC10-AC20. Use your assaults and heavies as distractions and aim for the enemies weak points and you'll probably end up doing much better.

That being said many mediums need a sizing pass. Hunchback is pretty much perfect. Centurion should be slightly taller and skinnier. Cicada and Blackjack should both be smaller then the Hunchback. the Trebuchet should be similar in size to the Centurion. The Kintaro and Shadowhawk as well as the Griffin and Wolverine should all be similar sizes but different widths and heights.

[Almond Brown]

YueFei, on 13 November 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nope. Hunchback will always be a little bit faster.

There's speed/tonnage/payload curves, ya know. I have builds for both, the Cataphract going 82.7 and the Hunchback going 90.9 kph. The Cataphract can give up 3.5 tons of payload to hit its max engine and go 86.6kph. But then the Hunchback can give up less, losing 1.5 tons of payload to maintain an 8 kph speed advantage, reaching 94.4 kph.

It becomes less and less efficient trying to make a heavier mech move faster. After a certain point, your mech is all engine. Look what happens if you shove a STD400 into an Atlas. And even with that monster engine you're still slower than someone in a lighter weight class.

If you take the smallest of the max. engines (non-tweaked) allowed between the 2 Mechs and have Max. armor on both then the 275 (+1HS) of the HB runs @ 89.1kph and the CTF runs @ 63.6. The HB has 13t left and the CTF has 27t. So the 20t bonus is now down to only 14t (6t armor extra is nice though ).

What ends up happening, due to the CTF being 20t heavier, it can afford to put up to an additional +/- 50% of that extra weight (14t) into more engine (8t is the true balance point) due to the additional +2 HS's @330, now runs @76.4.

Thus the initial 27kph advantage in speed of the HB, when using comparable engines, is reduced to only 13kph, but the CTF has whittled its initial 14t weight advantage down to a mere 4t advantage in additional Armament/HS/Ammo space availability.

As noted above, for yet an additional 2.5t of engine (up to to max 340 for the CTF) you gain minimal extra speed (2.3kph) and lose all but the armor advantage in the CTF.

Edited by Almond Brown, 13 November 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Feetwet]

While the slight speed advantage the HBK has over the CTF will help it get to its initial point faster, I would argue that the advantage evaporates once combat is engaged. Roughly 10 kph does not give me enough speed to disengage the CTF nor does it allow me to quickly get behind the CTF. In combat, if you don't have armor you need the ability to evade and extend. Lights have that against mediums. Mediums don't have that against heavies.

[Jerod Drekmor]

Infrasound, on 09 October 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

This is coming though isn't it? Medium mechs are fine for specific roles, brawling against assualts is not one of them, I do agree with you though issue is perception, cost more = more better. Assaults cost more.

Hunchie is a brawler mech....read some lore, also I mostly enjoyed duels with Assaults in my 4G-Ac20......

Imo..after playing so much with mediums...I think what we need most is to be faster while having tones to equip some weapons, and be smaler in size, as for me I dont mind Lights geting smaller(a bit) in that proces.

[Joseph Mallan]

Jerod Drekmor, on 13 November 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Hunchie is a brawler mech....read some lore, also I mostly enjoyed duels with Assaults in my 4G-Ac20......

Imo..after playing so much with mediums...I think what we need most is to be faster while having tones to equip some weapons, and be smaler in size, as for me I dont mind Lights geting smaller(a bit) in that proces.

Yes. It is a Brawler Mech, but is it an equal to an Atlas as a brawler Mech? You have half the mass an with that you can get to be faster, but that isn't always enough against Mechs that can carry a Medium Mechs mass in weapons and a Light Mech of armor!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Murphy7]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yes. It is a Brawler Mech, but is it an equal to an Atlas as a brawler Mech? You have half the mass an with that you can get to be faster, but that isn't always enough against Mechs that can carry a Medium Mechs mass in weapons and a Light Mech of armor!

Mediums need the maneuverability to be able to dictate in that match up when and how they are vulnerable to being hit.

The engine rating limitations have done the most to hinder mediums, especially several of the Centurion and Hunchback variants, because of their low native engine rating.

The assault counts on its armor for defense, the lights count on their maneuverability, but the inbetween categories clearly favor heavies with their higher capacity for armor and generally EQUAL maneuverabilty to mediums.

[dal10]

Murphy7, on 13 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Mediums need the maneuverability to be able to dictate in that match up when and how they are vulnerable to being hit.

The engine rating limitations have done the most to hinder mediums, especially several of the Centurion and Hunchback variants, because of their low native engine rating.

The assault counts on its armor for defense, the lights count on their maneuverability, but the inbetween categories clearly favor heavies with their higher capacity for armor and generally EQUAL maneuverabilty to mediums.

you do realize that engine limits were put in place BECAUSE of the hunchback right?


well that and 250 kph commandos, but those builds were purely for lulz.

Edited by dal10, 13 November 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Want people to run more mediums?

Release the Shadow Hawk for cbills. They'll spill out into the streets.

[Murphy7]

dal10, on 13 November 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

you do realize that engine limits were put in place BECAUSE of the hunchback right?

well that and 250 kph commandos, but those builds were purely for lulz.

You do realize that the weapon behaviors, netcode, models, hitboxes, and electronics warfare have all changed significantly since closed beta and now?

People were aggrivated at the superfast 9 small laser 4P build which was mostly silly and would be significantly less effective in the current environment, with many more choices for mechs across each weight class.

More to the point, the open engine rating use (as opposed to TT restrictions) in addition to the MW:O engine rating restrictions based on base engine rating + weight class yields more flexibility in engine selection and maneuverability for assaults and heavies as opposed to mediums, which does not seem intuitive.

Going heavier in the current environment gives you more of everything - armor, weapons, engine, AND maneuverability, rather than at the COST of maneuverability.

[dal10]

i still think the 120 kph lunchback would be moderately effective. does ghost heat even affect small lasers?