427 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Having mastered hunchbacks I came to agree with what many of the others have said in here about mediums being underwhelming, and much of that coming down to scale/artwork.

The silhouette of a mech is a balance factor - end of discussion.

Unfortunately from what I have read in the past when asked to re-scale mech sizes is that they do not have the tools to do anything like this in an automated way. They would have to re-make the model to scale it up or down.

I hope that at some point they will introduce accross the board armor point modifiers, so that location by location every mech in the game gets a slightly different amount of effective armor from 1 point of armor.

E.g. the un-awesome and the hunch bucket's right torso get a 10% bonus to armor. The commando gets a 15% boost while the spider gets a 5% penalty. The arms of the catapult get a 5% bonus, etc.

[Vassago Rain]

Lordhammer, on 09 October 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Versatility is mediums speciality. If they are underpresented then game modes/maps arent sufficient for players to require something that does a bit of everything.

The versatile mediums you speak of aren't in the game. The huncback is a dedicated short-range brawler, for instance.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes and no. Versatility is one of their strengths. But, I don't think Game Modes would have much effect on it. What made them "The Work Horse of the Battlefield". Is their versatility, also they were cheap to reproduce and maintain. There is two problems that keep them from being able to take advantage of these. #1. People want to specialize their Mech. They don't want a "Jack of all trades/Master of none". #2. People can have more then one Mech and there is no maintenance cost.

Which makes sense if c-bills are a limitation, which theyre not in MWO. Its the versatility of medium mechs that needs to be increased. Medium mechs should get the most module slots, they should go speeds in between lights and heavies, and they should be scaled properly in between a light and a heavy. Additionally no light should be a match for a medium in a straight up fight, and thats one of the problems right now, where a 35T Jenner is more than a match for most 50T mechs. Lights should be weaker in combat but stronger in other roles like scouting (which is currently a non-existent role, but should be a vitally important role).

Quote

People want to specialize their Mech.

Of course. Because specialization is currently better than versatility. However if versatility was equally good to specializing then there would be no preference either way. Currently MWO is set up so that its better to be good at one thing than to be mediocre at several things, and thats what needs to change.

Edited by Khobai, 09 October 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[jakucha]

Bonuses, but if you really want a big change you have to force it with tonnage limits. The only other effective option would be to make mediums as strong or stronger than assaults which is obviously not reasonable. My main point is people like assaults more because they're generally better at killing and surviving, so you have to force separate it because economics and supply aren't going to do it in this game, like it does in lore.

Edited by jakucha, 09 October 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Barantor]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

The versatile mediums you speak of aren't in the game. The huncback is a dedicated short-range brawler, for instance.

They have to be forced to be versatile and then they are a bit gimped on dps unless you can survive through the whole round.

Cicada, Hunchback (most variants) and the Trebuchet are fairly specialized. The centurion has become the 'zombie mech' and rarely sees anything but brawling either. The kintaro is the streak mech which is a bit sad too.

Will the 3 new mechs coming out over the next few months change that? Don't think so? Anything is possible and hopefully they find some sort of solution.

[C E Dwyer]

fit bigger engines make them faster, my quick draws are either as fast or faster than my mediums except the cicada, a c-bill buff...targets in the game that don't rely on pure damage output.

There isn't really alot of difference between a QD and a 50-55 tonne medium, going up against a QD dragon Cat or orion in a big medium, doesn't bother me to much, balisitc jeager/phracts, is another matter though.

Mostly its just the way people think, thats a mediums big problem

Edited by Cathy, 09 October 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Daekar]

If I were the devs I would implement a scale of bonus armor for the current huge-sized mediums so as to avoid remodeling, and DO ALL FUTURE MEDIUMS RIGHT, and SCREW what the canon says about size.

[Odins Fist]

Spiff, on 09 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

"How To Get Folks To Run More Medium Mechs?"

ANSWER: Introduce ER-Medium Lasers to the game..

J/K

[General Taskeen]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

For starters, not scaling them like assault mechs,

But there are still some people who "don't understand" why scale matters. (lulz) :-D

So therefore,

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Vassago Rain, on 09 October 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

For starters, not scaling them like assault mechs,

I don't always agree with vass, but when I do -- PGI really dun fcked up.

Artgathan, on 09 October 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

There are several problems with Mediums:

• They're (mostly) too big
  
• Engine weights mean that mediums can either move faster than a typical heavy and carry the firepower of a light, or carry more firepower but be a slow (and large) target. Either way, they're outshined by heavies on one end or lights on the other.
  
• The mobility bonuses (while helpful) didn't go far enough. Mediums would have benefited more from Accel/Deceleration and turning speed buffs

Edited by mwhighlander, 09 October 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Thuzel]

Want to balance mediums? Make them smaller, more maneuverable, and give them well-designed hit-boxes.

In other words, do almost everything that PGI hasn't.

Seriously, with the sizes they gave the Trebuchet, Quickdraw (I know), Kintaro, etc... is it any wonder why they aren't nearly as good as they could be? You're effectively piloting a heavy mech with half the armor and weapons...

Edited by Thuzel, 09 October 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Ryokens leap]

But, but, but I thought bigger was better?

[GODzillaGSPB]

DROP LIMITS

Yes, that means that matchmaking will take longer and that there is a good chance you cannot drop. Also, teams with 4 Atlas or something like that may be refused. Life is tough.

But I guess PGI is afraid to do that. Less restraints for more arcadish gameplay makes for more potential players, yay!

[Murphy7]

Snowcrow, on 09 October 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

Tonnage limits will make mediums popular. The devs are working on it.

Might not make the mediums themselves popular, but certainly will make those willing to make use of them popular with groups since others will prefer their heavies, assaults, and lights.

I recall when the Centurions were universally reviled as terribad mechs, and now through the vagaries of damage transference they have found a dubious popularity.

For my part, I am very much looking forward to the 55 tonners inbound (Shadowhawk, Griffin, Wolverine) but am increasinly aware of how my affection for them from the TT game will have next to no translation in MWO

• Jump Jets do not significantly aid in agility, but do help with terrain negotiation
  
• Target size and relative fragility make these mechs more difficult to run effectively
  
• Balancing issues to make space for the role of a medium will likely involve partial nerfs to heavies and lights, which will just make more people angry

[Tilley]

If less people play mediums, then that's what I'll play. I like to go against the grain and I'd put my Blackjack up against any other mech in a dual. It's a very viable mech, though I can't speak for the other mediums. I've tried a few and was disappointed.

[Charons Little Helper]

GODzillaGSPB, on 09 October 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

DROP LIMITS

Yes, that means that matchmaking will take longer and that there is a good chance you cannot drop. Also, teams with 4 Atlas or something like that may be refused. Life is tough.

But I guess PGI is afraid to do that. Less restraints for more arcadish gameplay makes for more potential players, yay!

Well - they should have weight limited lance types. People should just be told that even making a full assault lance they're limited to 350 tons (or some such) as opposed to just searching for a game forever.

I hope that they use the future lobby system to good effect with weight limits - having people pick their mechs just before the match. (each lance with a seperate weight limit / being forced to leave X weight per player left to pick in their lance) I'd think PGI would be for something like that as well - as it'd encourage having more mech types for versitility. (and from their perspective - make it more likely people will spend real $)

[Khobai]

Quote

DROP LIMITS

Drop limits solve one problem but create another. Drop limits will cause players to gravitate towards taking mechs that give the most bang for the tonnage. Any solution that results in a large portion of mechs becoming obsolete is not a proper solution.

[Jman5]

One way to get more people in mediums is to make certain heavies worse. Make the cataphract a little less agile. Make jump jets on bigger mechs less effective so you have to really invest in jump jets if you want to use them.

[RandomLurker]

The biggest problem to me is that the selection of chassis is very bad. Mediums have a higher skill cap then other classes, but are still very deadly in the right hands. The ability to move a large amount of firepower, quickly, to where it's needed is a very useful trait. The problem is the delivery platforms are limited.

Because of their tonnage, mediums need to carry multiples of very weight-efficient weapons. LLasers, Mlasers, SRMs, Occasionally a PPC or Autocannon. Instead, we have LRM boats and AC boats and one SRM boat. SRM builds are problematic because of SRM hit detection.

Cicada: Is fine, but it's more of a light mech.
Blackjack: Too slow.
Hunchback: RT will be gone in seconds. 4-SP is only effective at close range. Medium speed with no JJ.
Trebuchet: Is Huge Target. 30% of the rear torso profile is actually the front CT.
Centurion: Innefficient hardpoint layout (reliance on ballistics); huge target.
Kintaro: Reliance on missiles, huge target.

The 4-SP, Trebuchet 5J, and Kintaro 19 come closest to what we need in medium chassis, but they all have pretty significant flaws. If PGI stops giving us chassis with ridiculous hardpoint setups, we might see mediums more effective. Also, mech scaling. Probably even more important then hardpoints actually.

[Hexenhammer]

Get is to play more mediums?
The Dervish.
Weight limits
Mechs with a better mix distrubtion if hard points than say the Griffin
Rescale mediums to medium sized.