124 replies to this topic

[Ingvay]

Until we see them in-game we wont know for sure, but with the exception of the Shadowhawk.... the scale on the others looks pretty good. The images of the Shadowhawk make me think this mech will not be very popular in-game due to it being much too tall....AGAIN!

It's a medium mech PGI... why do they keep screwing up the scale and height on Mediums especially. Sigh. I hope the Wolverine and Griffin are smaller than the SH.

[ShadowbaneX]

Ingvay, on 12 October 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Until we see them in-game we wont know for sure, but with the exception of the Shadowhawk.... the scale on the others looks pretty good. The images of the Shadowhawk make me think this mech will not be very popular in-game due to it being much too tall....AGAIN!

It's a medium mech PGI... why do they keep screwing up the scale and height on Mediums especially. Sigh. I hope the Wolverine and Griffin are smaller than the SH.

And make it seem even worse? No thanks. Just shrink the Shadow Hawk by about 10-15% (and increase it's max jump jets to 5) and I'll be happier...still don't know how the Wolverine & Griffin get 5/7 for JJs when the SHD gets capped at 3.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ingvay, on 12 October 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Until we see them in-game we wont know for sure, but with the exception of the Shadowhawk.... the scale on the others looks pretty good. The images of the Shadowhawk make me think this mech will not be very popular in-game due to it being much too tall....AGAIN!

It's a medium mech PGI... why do they keep screwing up the scale and height on Mediums especially. Sigh. I hope the Wolverine and Griffin are smaller than the SH.

Hope you are wrong, fear you are right.

ShadowbaneX, on 12 October 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

And make it seem even worse? No thanks. Just shrink the Shadow Hawk by about 10-15% (and increase it's max jump jets to 5) and I'll be happier...still don't know how the Wolverine & Griffin get 5/7 for JJs when the SHD gets capped at 3.

withthe Griff's loadout, it had to have something to recommend it. Sadly big jumping ain't gonna be enough. And the wolverine always had 5 JJ. The SHD was known for only having 3 on most variants.

One Medic Army, on 12 October 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Well, now I'm glad I didn't buy the saber pack.

I really don't think that perspective gives an accurate comparison. Regardless, the bloody thing IS going to be too tall, I think.

[Ghogiel]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

wait a sec...... the ray trace doo hickey........ that's what bugging me. You follow the toes for a fixed point, which is fine, but the other traces all are angled to meet that, meaning they don't really tell you much. That angle

following those upper lines as a consistent guide is fallacious. Look at hos the Cnty shrinks as a "slide" it to follow those guides.

I grant I don't know the "maths" but, I do know if you place a Centy at those points on that map, it ain't that small, which is what following those traces would tell you.

It's an optical illusion because you are comparing the mechs to foreground objects that would be hundreds of meters closer to the camera than the lines going to the horizon. Those shrunken mechs would actually be in or beyond the cliffs and not sitting on the ground there.. if the scene had an actual horizon it would make more sense to attempt this sort of scaling...

Edited by Ghogiel, 12 October 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghogiel, on 12 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

It's an optical illusion because you are comparing the mechs to foreground objects that would be hundreds of meters closer to the camera than the lines going to the horizon. Those shrunken mechs would actually be in or beyond the cliffs and not sitting on the ground there.. if the scene had an actual horizon it would make more sense.

If the scene had a fixed reference for the 3rd dimension/plane it would make more sense too. Problem is, it doesn't, and so those traces are not telling the whole story, to the best of my ability to tell.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

After dithering about the Phoenix pack because of worries about the size of the S Hawk I took the plunge yesterday. Maybe I should have waited. Looks like I might actually be piloting something other than a medium more of the time. Given this there is no way I will get the Talon pack - two more of my favourite mechs no doubt bigger than most heavies.
What is wrong with them. They have made so many (often successful) adaptations from BT to real time. Why can't they do it with the mediums. Its a balance thing. I may be a grognard but accept changes are necessary. I love mediums, but it can be hard work in this game.

[MuonNeutrino]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

I guess that's what bugs me, is it's a 2d reference point on a 3d picture. I get that the actual location is supposed to be far and away behind the actual visual line, but without another reference point, it's still just a set of converging points, with no more guarantee that the angles are on the right plane for the Shadow hawk, closer on to us on the "slider" than my mini cents further back. To use a 2 dimensional set of traces you would need a 3rd "constant" or known point along the traces, like another mech Centy further down the line, where you traces intersect both, and then you could compare the SHD to it.

That's not how perspective works. Two points in 3d space define a line. In this case, those two points are the fronts of the feet, or the tops of the kneecaps, or the tops of the hips. By the construction of the legs, all three of the lines defined that way are parallel in 3d space, to the limits of the accuracy of my drawing. By the laws of perspective, all lines that are parallel in 3d space appear to converge to the same point when projected onto a two dimensional viewing plane. Therefore, any other lines drawn on that same viewing plane that originate at the same vanishing point, represent lines parallel to the original set when translated back into the 3d space.

The reason that we can use these lines to compare the centurion and shadow hawk is because the two mechs are oriented nearly identically along them. Look at how the lines cut across the cent - they connect equal height components on the cent's left and right sides just like they do on the shadow hawk. Thus, the same conclusions are just as valid for the cent as for the hawk. And therefore the orange lines, which are parallel to the yellow ones in 3d space by construction, cut across both the shadow hawk and the centurion at the same physical height above the ground.

We wouldn't be able to do this easily if the shadow hawk were not positioned so nicely relative to the centurion. But because it is, we can.

[Bishop Steiner]

MuonNeutrino, on 12 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

That's not how perspective works. Two points in 3d space define a line. In this case, those two points are the fronts of the feet, or the tops of the kneecaps, or the tops of the hips. By the construction of the legs, all three of the lines defined that way are parallel in 3d space, to the limits of the accuracy of my drawing. By the laws of perspective, all lines that are parallel in 3d space appear to converge to the same point when projected onto a two dimensional viewing plane. Therefore, any other lines drawn on that same viewing plane that originate at the same vanishing point, represent lines parallel to the original set when translated back into the 3d space.

The reason that we can use these lines to compare the centurion and shadow hawk is because the two mechs are oriented nearly identically along them. Look at how the lines cut across the cent - they connect equal height components on the cent's left and right sides just like they do on the shadow hawk. Thus, the same conclusions are just as valid for the cent as for the hawk. And therefore the orange lines, which are parallel to the yellow ones in 3d space by construction, cut across both the shadow hawk and the centurion at the same physical height above the ground.

We wouldn't be able to do this easily if the shadow hawk were not positioned so nicely relative to the centurion. But because it is, we can.

As I said. Don't claim to know the maths. But my gut is still telling me something is missing and off. But the only proofs I guess my mind will grasp won't be available til Tuesday, though without Tennex to grab the ingame models and then ortho them, even then I reckon I'll have to live off estimation.

Too many of those in game shots have too much obvious perspective warping (such as the Cataphract one) to let me trust this. So maybe I am just limited, maybe stubborn, IDK, but I am just 90% sure something is missing in that perspective shot.

[Masterrix]

why is this thing so huge ?? ?

what are PGI engineers thinking when they make such stupid decisions

[Ghogiel]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

If the scene had a fixed reference for the 3rd dimension/plane it would make more sense too. Problem is, it doesn't, and so those traces are not telling the whole story, to the best of my ability to tell.

It is slightly off.

It's skewed in that the vanishing point is about 1cm below the horizon.

[ShadowbaneX]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

withthe Griff's loadout, it had to have something to recommend it. Sadly big jumping ain't gonna be enough. And the wolverine always had 5 JJ. The SHD was known for only having 3 on most variants.

I know, but it could take up to 5 JJs and that's what I did with mine in a Mech Warrior RPG the first time I had the opportunity to mod the thing. I don't disagree that it should come with 3 stock, but it should have 5 max, but we're starting to get off topic here.

Shadow Hawk is too large for my liking, but it's too late to change it. I just hope that at some point down the line when Mediums get another buff one of the ways they do it is to shrink some mechs so that 55 tonners aren't larger than 70 & 80 ton mechs.

[Asyres]

I don't personally own a mech with more than two jump jets, so the low limit is hardly of concern.

On the balance, I'd rather have a mech that's too tall than too wide, so there's that, too.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghogiel, on 12 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

It is slightly off.

It's skewed in that the vanishing point is about 1cm below the horizon.

we need the Charlie Epps from Numb3rs on here. He´d save the day!

[RandomLurker]

FupDup, on 12 October 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

Uh oh:


Damnit, I got my hopes up for nothin'. Business as usual, nothing to see here. Medium mech scaling working as intended™.

Holy bloody malfing hell.

**** you PGI. **** you.

[Sephlock]

Johnny Reb, on 11 October 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

I am actually surprised the T-bolt is that short! I like!

I am absolutely thrilled that this is the case. I'm not sure how useful the T-bolt will be, but at the very least it's scaled nicely.

[Bishop Steiner]

RandomLurker, on 12 October 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Holy bloody malfing hell.

**** you PGI. **** you.

deep breath.

First, the Phract is a short wide Heavy. Second look at the warping on that shot. I´s useless for perspective.

http://www.nogutsnog...pic,1159.0.html

I look at that(particularly next to cicada and catapult), and It doesn't look as bad.



Moral of the story? We really won't know squat til Tuesday.

[Mechwarrior413183]

Wolverine and Kintaro "they will also be 55 ton size" from Twitter so yeah...



*Just spreading the info around don't hate please.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mockeryangel, on 12 October 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Wolverine and Kintaro "they will also be 55 ton size" from Twitter so yeah...



*Just spreading the info around don't hate please.

so lets wait until the Shadowhawk actually dfrops Tuesday so we can all see it in photos that aren´t full of totally borked and skewed perspective warping, and see if their is any REAL issue before crying about 2 more mechs 2 months away?

Kintaro is also 55 tons, and not horribly huge.

[Carrioncrows]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

so lets wait until the Shadowhawk actually dfrops Tuesday so we can all see it in photos that aren´t full of totally borked and skewed perspective warping, and see if their is any REAL issue before crying about 2 more mechs 2 months away?

Kintaro is also 55 tons, and not horribly huge.

To quote a Top Gun Line

That Shadowhawk's scale is making checks it's armor points can't cash.

But sure i'll wait.

[Ghogiel]

Not all of the shots have view frustum DoF warping. The shaqwk is going to be a fairly lanky mech.