89 replies to this topic

[Hellcat420]

Roadbeer, on 16 October 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Um, I'm a premade player, almost exclusively, and I would love nothing more than a PUG queue, as long as us premades would be allowed to create groups of any size (up to 12) that we wanted.. or even just even numbered groups so smaller groups could fill the holes.

I don't speak for every premade, but my conversations usually run like "Zergherd is going to Mt. Doom, as usual, so we might as well loop around to flank the enemy before they get chewed up". or "PUGshield activated, and is going single file into Theta, oh look, 3 down already, Hold up and dig in at C3, we're going to loose, but at least we can take some with us".

You can have your solo queue.

but dont forget, its your fault they marched to their deaths like fools because you are in a group.

[Homeless Bill]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

If you pug the only effect it would have on you is narrowing the Elo range you drop with, make matches much more competative, better weight balanced and speed up the matchmaker.

This is 100% wrong, and I have no idea how you believe this. If there are 1000 players on, let's say that 100 are in an appropriate Elo range. Now you split that into two queues, and there are only 50. That means either doubled wait time or the matchmaker gets less picky. How on earth does decreasing the number of players in your queue mean faster/better matches??

You even admit it will take longer:

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

and in fact match setup times woudl be much longer without being able to pull in PUG players of wildly diffeirng Elo scores to fill the cracks

I just... I don't even know how you're coming to that conclusion.

[Roadbeer]

Hellcat420, on 16 October 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

but dont forget, its your fault they marched to their deaths like fools because you are in a group.

Yeah, and it's the solo, Lone Wolf who rails about how bad their team is, while dead... it's usually the guy with 20 damage and the first to die. But the rest of us suck because we didn't back up his suicide mission and Leroy Jenkins playstyle.

[Homeless Bill]

Roland, on 16 October 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

While I hear what you are saying, you can't say that the idea is bad purely because the player base is small, even if you believe such a change would improve the game.

Because at that point, you are effectively opposing changes which would increase the player base, because the player base is too small... Which is going to eventually just kill the player base and thus the game, in the long run.

I totally can because everything needs a cost/benefit analysis. Would I like better matches? Yes. Would I be willing to wait an additional minute or two for the matchmaker to find them? No.

Why don't we have 1PV only queue, stock only queue, and get to pick and choose maps? Why not implement a lasers-only, ballistics-only, and missiles-only queue? How about five or ten more game modes?

I'd like all of those things, but after coming back from my break, the matchmaker takes almost 2 minutes on average to find me a match. I hate waiting. I'd rather get steamrolled every now and then than waste a match of time every three of four matches.

It's about balance, and my opinion is that a PUG-only queue isn't worth it. I'd rather see a new game mode than a separate queue. It's just not that big of a deal. I PUG, and I still maintain a decent WLR. The PUG life is hard, but people need to cowboy up or get in a 4-man.

[akpavker]

Kutfroat, on 16 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

just this. let premades try to inflate their elo lvl by farming other premades. it works for league of legends, so make it work here. can´t be this hard. i´m fine with waiting longer. at least matches will have the chance to be balanced and fun.

this is a great idea if you like to fail at finding matches!!! there isnt a high enough player base here and this is not the first time its been proposed. im actualy starting to get sick of replying to some tool that gets [redacted] kicked all the time then comes to the forums to ask for pug only queing. 9 times out of 10 when you pug you will be placed in a team of 12 with atleast one premade in it any way. MR.T has a suggestion for you.......

[picture redacted]

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 17 October 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[No Guts No Glory]

Hellcat420, on 16 October 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

but dont forget, its your fault they marched to their deaths like fools because you are in a group.

If you're in a group and not announcing it to your team, then it is your fault. Despite what you seem to claim, most pugs will follow the orders of a premade, if they are made aware of your existence on their team.

And like I've said in every other thread of this nature, all PGI needs to do is have MM place a similar number of grouped players on each team and label them in the scoreboard. They can remove group size limits. It's win win for both sides.

[GalaxyBluestar]

premades do have an advantage through TS that's well known but MM is a bit random these days {we need more players} most of the time premades are countering other premades. sometimes it doesn't happen but it's not because we need to split pugs and premades. i would like more freedom for premade numbers but it would mean more room for MM to make errors. for example it's trying to match elo's only, a 7 premade 5 pug would have an advantage against two 4mans and 4 pugs. however it's an experiment worth having. if everyone ***** about the MM now could it really be worse?

i agree with no sympathy for pugs. that is the game that is the challenge and it's actually enjoyable being matched against premades because i do love the flow of organised play even if on the recieiving end. its more epic and less random chaotic. every loss and win feels more earned when there are organised players on the move.

no happy with the mixes and the challenges that comes with it thanks!

[Purlana]

No Guts No Glory, on 16 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

If you're in a group and not announcing it to your team, then it is your fault. Despite what you seem to claim, most pugs will follow the orders of a premade, if they are made aware of your existence on their team.

Nah PUGs rarely listen. If you call a RTB, they expect an Atlas to go back and defend against 3 lights so they can pad their K/D ratio.

Edited by Purlana, 16 October 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Hellcat420]

No Guts No Glory, on 16 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

If you're in a group and not announcing it to your team, then it is your fault. Despite what you seem to claim, most pugs will follow the orders of a premade, if they are made aware of your existence on their team.

And like I've said in every other thread of this nature, all PGI needs to do is have MM place a similar number of grouped players on each team and label them in the scoreboard. They can remove group size limits. It's win win for both sides.

haha ya they do 5% of the time. the other 95% of the time pugs will march straight to their death while ignoring what the rest of the team is doing irreguardless of any directions people are giving in team chat.

[No Guts No Glory]

Purlana, on 16 October 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Nah PUGs rarely listen. If you call a RTB, they expect an Atlas to go back and defend against 3 lights so they can pad their K/D ratio.

Sorry, but premades are guilty of the exact same thing. Diffusion of responsibility.

Hellcat420, on 16 October 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

haha ya they do 5% of the time. the other 95% of the time pugs will march straight to their death while ignoring what the rest of the team is doing irreguardless of any directions people are giving in team chat.

Regardless.

Nice made up numbers. Only bottom tier pugs march straight to their doom. Most just bunker down and play defense if they don't actually have a plan, or a group on their side to lead.

Regardless, as premade players, would you be against the MM working as such?

No Guts No Glory, on 16 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

... have MM place a similar number of grouped players on each team and label them in the scoreboard. They can remove group size limits. It's win win for both sides.

And if so, why?

[Orodain]

premades should always fight other premades in every game.

4 people who know each other and work together do 100x better than the team made up of moderate players and trial mechs. Even if theyre not working together that well theyre playing enough to be grouped into a lance and are obviously going to do better.

Its as obvious as capturetech base runs ruining assault mode.

Watch the apologist premaders say otherwise.

Edited by Orodain, 16 October 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[Purlana]

Orodain, on 16 October 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

premades should always fight other premades in every game.

4 people who know each other and work together do 100x better than the team made up of moderate players and trial mechs. Even if theyre not working together that well theyre playing enough to be grouped into a lance and are obviously going to do better.

Its as obvious as capturetech base runs ruining assault mode.

Watch the apologist premaders say otherwise.

Sure 4 premade + 8 PUG VS 4 premade + 8 PUG. Sounds fine to me.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Orodain, on 16 October 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

premades should always fight other premades in every game.

4 people who know each other and work together do 100x better than the team made up of moderate players and trial mechs. Even if theyre not working together that well theyre playing enough to be grouped into a lance and are obviously going to do better.

Its as obvious as capturetech base runs ruining assault mode.

Watch the apologist premaders say otherwise.

dude many matches have a premade on each side cause premades are becoming as common as puggers. now use your intelligence try using one of your pet hates against another.

[Vassago Rain]

Kutfroat, on 16 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

just this. let premades try to inflate their elo lvl by farming other premades. it works for league of legends, so make it work here. can´t be this hard. i´m fine with waiting longer. at least matches will have the chance to be balanced and fun.

Like people have said, the scary premades are pretty much all regular dudes dropping on weekends or free time to grind out some bills and farm XP for a terrible mech variant. The pr0s almost all left during the third person war.

If they split it now, neither side would be happy. Six months ago, it wouldn't have been a problem. I wish there was an easy solution, but there really isn't.

[Roland]

One of the biggest problems right now is still the fact that if you have more than 4, but less than exactly 12, you are screwed.

It's a ridiculously ******** system, and one that they claimed they were going to do away with.

[Gozer]

I pug and I group up it varies. I vote no because I have no problems going against premades, never have. I win some, I lose some. The point I try to do is I try to be personally competitive. If I did well I'm enjoying myself.

That said, getting the Pugs to work WITH you goes as a long way. Randomly ran into another Orion pilot who actually called for help and gave commands. Being the guy I am I followed orders and BAM look at that we won. We grouped up and started taking over every PUG team we ended up with after that. (Even picked up a fellow pirate) Sure, he did it by doing a crazy character (He was the pirate captain) but we won more most of the games and only really lost bad when the PUGS (and one match the mythical Premade!) wandered off on their own and ignored us.

So even with just text typing you can get the PUGs in line. So no to seperate cues beyond what we have with the 12 mans.

[Cagneyy]

Ive found that most if not all the houses have free and open TS servers. As a steiner i can confirm that pretty much everyone in the Steiner TS server is friendly and welcoming. Just a bunch of pilots that want to have the advantages we are acting as if we are being deprived of. They even make it easy with a "Waiting to launch" channel. Just pop in and hang out for a few minutes and you will almost surely get asked if you would like to drop in a lance or even a full 12 man. Hell you can even bounce around the channels you see not full and ask to join. I have yet to see a man turned down

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Oh it's this topic again. Just copy/paste everything from the previous 234 threads on the same subject.

"Them cursed premades! I will get you one day, I will!"

[Coralld]

No.

I do both PUG and premade, and from what I found out is that even with simple commands in the text chat you can make a HUGE difference, that's of course if your fellow team mates listen. Also, if there are premades on the other team, chances are you have premades on your team as well in some shape or form. Premades are not the boogyman some people are making them out to be.

The reason why solo players are getting destroyed has several factors.
1) You and your team straight up got out played.
2) MM shenanigans.
3) Have team mates think that they are so boss that they go out and try to take on the entire enemy team like Rambo.
4) Bad luck.
5) You and your team just suck, sorry bucko.
6) You have to many new people running around in trial mechs and over all just don't know what they are doing.
7) You have several players that lose connection on your team.
8) You and or your team is refusing to communicate/work together/listen.
9) Some combination of 1-8.

But guess what, premades have to deal with the same frustration as PUGs, the only difference is that premades communicate with each other as well as the team, PUGs can communicate as well, you just need one person to give the rabble a direction and as long as they listen then you can turn a PUG team into a force to be reckoned with. But if you and or other PUGs chose to be anti-social then you might want to invest in some lotion because you are in for a rough ride.

Edited by Coralld, 16 October 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Homeless Bill, on 16 October 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Quote

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:
If you pug the only effect it would have on you is narrowing the Elo range you drop with, make matches much more competative, better weight balanced and speed up the matchmaker.

This is 100% wrong, and I have no idea how you believe this. If there are 1000 players on, let's say that 100 are in an appropriate Elo range. Now you split that into two queues, and there are only 50. That means either doubled wait time or the matchmaker gets less picky. How on earth does decreasing the number of players in your queue mean faster/better matches??

Quote

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 October 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:
and in fact match setup times woudl be much longer without being able to pull in PUG players of wildly diffeirng Elo scores to fill the cracks

You even admit it will take longer:
I just... I don't even know how you're coming to that conclusion.

I'm going to try to expalain this a little better, using the examples you posted. If you have 1000 players on and 100 in the appropriate Elo range, then the matchmaker can grab 24 for of those that are all adjacent making a instant match were every player is the same Elo rating.
Whereas if there is a group involved, the players on teh same group may not (are probably not) in the same Elo bracket, and the matchmaker now has to find another group with similar composition, which it cannot, so it grabs pugs from all over the Elo bracket to match Elo scores.

This is why you see so many matches that end 12-0, 12-1, 12-2; and why you see such disparity in tonnage. Pre-made groups force the matchmaker to broaden it search criteria out of the gate, because premade groups can bring in varied Elo pilots and can force a weight class disparity.

To simplify this evenfurhter. If you have ever bought a variety back of anything, you know there is always some things in the variety pack that you don't want, and if the option were available to you it would always be more beneficial be able to purchase the variety items individually and pick just the items you want. this is the same dilemma the matchmaker faces every match there is a group (which is to say almost ever match).

As for where I came up with this conclustion, it is simple, I read the dev posts, where Matt Craig specifically states, Premade groups are harder to match, and all the adjustments to the matchmaker algorithm to make closer matches were undone.

Quote

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2805573
Posted by Matthew Craig 02 October 2013 - 01:08 PM

Tightening both Elo and Weight was proving too much for wait times, so for now Elo was preferred. This is resulting in closer matching of skill based players but tonnage matching admittedly isn't great right now. For now at least new players aren't mixing with lethal trained killers

We agree tonnage isn't great, and pre-mades are harder to match, there are significant changes coming for CW related to match making so for now it's likely to remain similar to this. I'll try and do a command chair on the upcoming MM changes at some point but please be patient, other things vying for time as well (which I'll try and discuss also).

Quote

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2777297
osted by Matthew Craig on 23 September 2013 - 10:15 AM in Feedback
Match making thresholds have been returned to pre-patch levels for now, we've learned a lot from this attempt to tune them. Thanks for everyone's feedback we'll be discussing a new set of changes internally aimed at improving the match maker further.

There are a number strawmen arguements being set up here, so I will try to reiterate the pro position clearly.

PUGs want a seperate queue to:
1. speed up the matchmaker
2. get closer Elo matching
3. get closer weight class matching
4. more variety in mechs and tactics

We don't believe that pre-made teams are inherently evil (I do play premade teams as well).
We don't believe that pre-made teams are responsible for lopsided matches, this is an Elo balance issue putting high and low Elo player s together in the same match and failing to match weight class.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 17 October 2013 - 08:53 AM.