134 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

i'm in support of the change to hardpoints argument. i want more hardpoints but a crit slot limiter so that builds like the op's terrible one is simply not possible. too many ppc boats in your MWO? bored with a mech's hitboxes being the dictator of a particular loadout even though many mechs in the future can do it, some infact specifically made to do it?

then you need more hardpoints and a crit slot limiter system. bored with stalkers being the ideal energy boat? worried that future mechs will still be overshadowed by the highlanders duo ac ppc build with JJ capabilities? then start giving hardpoint locations crit slot limiters so that an energy arm can't jsut stack what ever it fancies but has to make a choice, for eg: want more victors being the sniper mech? leave the hard points and give it all the critslots it wants simillar to what we have now. THEN the highlander {particulay HVY MTL and 733c} give them MORE hardpoints say up to 4 or 5 energy 3 balisstic, but the crit slots for those arms and right torso are limited to 4-5 slots. that means it would no longer be a sniper mech because it can't fit sniper weapons but it would be an ideal brawler being able to fit more smaller weapons. that is how you bring purpose into more chassis without one mech dominating everyone's work and still have customising flexibility.

i've been saying this for ages and the deal still stands. you want more chassis in the game without it being overshadowed by established mechs. this is how you do it.

[PEEFsmash]

So the OP says "how is this good game design."

Now my question is "how is it bad game design."

OP admits that this build isn't overpowered. He just has some visceral reaction to seeing 2 PPCs on a Jenner, but he knows it isn't too powerful because the build is so limiting. So, my question is, what is wrong with the fact that you can make a build that by your own admission is balanced?

You just have an intuition of "wrongness" that you want to impose, even when there is no balance issue. It's like me saying "Battlemaster shouldn't be able to carry 7 different energy weapons!" And then someone saying "But 7 different energy weapons on the same mech is just a terrible build." But then I insist "BUT 7 TYPES? THAT'S JUST WRONG. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ITS BAD GAME DESIGN TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT RANGES OF WEAPON."

I'm upset now that it took me so long to realize that your argument is simply an exhaling of an intuition you have about what is aesthetically pleasing on a mech, and has, by your own admission, nothing to do with the balance of the game.

[Kilrein]

Rhent, on 20 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

This is an example of the poor system the developers put on people:
2 PPC Jenner + 1 SL + 10 DHS + 97% armor moves at 124 KPH

You have a ridiculously microscopic high speed sniper that has the long range fire power of most heavies in the game now.

<sarcasm>Thank GOD the developers did not put in hard point limitations in the game. Best decision they've made to date.</sarcasm>

Wow, congratulations, you created a corner case mech that might be useful in about 1 out of 10 matches.

It's weaknesses:

- Slow for a Jenner. 124 KPH with tweak is going to get chased down by mediums, much less lights.
- Massive heat issues, sure you can snipe but that's only going to be effective on larger maps, smaller maps you might get one or two shots before you get jumped
- No jump jets limits this mobility and ability to get to some of the prime sniping positions.
- LRM bait - no speed + no AMS = death by LRM

What next, the ER PPC Locust?

I think the game design is good, not perfect but there are a lot of trade offs that have to be made during mech design. Speed versus firepower, armor versus speed, mobility versus heat dissipation, etc..

Would be nice to have slot limits but overall it's solid.

[Lord Perversor]

Kilrein, on 20 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Wow, congratulations, you created a corner case mech that might be useful in about 1 out of 10 matches.

It's weaknesses:

- Slow for a Jenner. 124 KPH with tweak is going to get chased down by mediums, much less lights.
- Massive heat issues, sure you can snipe but that's only going to be effective on larger maps, smaller maps you might get one or two shots before you get jumped
- No jump jets limits this mobility and ability to get to some of the prime sniping positions.
- LRM bait - no speed + no AMS = death by LRM

What next, the ER PPC Locust?

I think the game design is good, not perfect but there are a lot of trade offs that have to be made during mech design. Speed versus firepower, armor versus speed, mobility versus heat dissipation, etc..

Would be nice to have slot limits but overall it's solid.

ERhm there is ERPPC locust working already. check Carrion Crows post

[Kilrein]

Rhent, on 20 October 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Reading is Fundamental.

I want you to go through every single post I' written on this. Please state where I've written once this was an overpowered build.

The build is set up where you can get around a few in game features on movement and the fact that a light mech can actually run 2 PPC's and be able to break 100KPH with full armor is an example of POOR GAME DESIGN.

I (like most others replying) are confused to YOUR ACTUAL POINT????

'How is this good game design' <------ Thread title, implies that this is not a well designed game.

Jenner build with 2 ER PPCS as an example - implies that this is a powerful build because the game is designed wrong

So please, enlighten me as to your actual point????

Because I'm lost

<wanders off to go look at paint dry>

Edited by Kilrein, 20 October 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

Lord Perversor, on 20 October 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

ERhm there is ERPPC locust working already. check Carrion Crows post

If "working" means the occasional freak game then every mech is working. In order to get that much damage with 1ERPPC the enemy team must be okay with you shooting over and over and over and over with no response really.

[Lindonius]

Ooh I just thought of another one!

Faster than stupid Jenner 2PPC Trebuchet

This is certainly killing a slow day at work OP so thanks for that at least.

Edit* And this one......

Barely faster (but still faster) than stupid jenner slightly more heat friendly Trebuchet

Edited by Lindonius, 20 October 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Kilrein]

Lord Perversor, on 20 October 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

ERhm there is ERPPC locust working already. check Carrion Crows post

Oh, I've seen them and I delight in killing them.

It's another corner case build but not as extreme as the OPs Jenner.

A really annoying mech on large maps such as Caustic Valley, Crimson Straights and Tourmaline.

[Rhent]

GalaxyBluestar, on 20 October 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

i'm in support of the change to hardpoints argument. i want more hardpoints but a crit slot limiter so that builds like the op's terrible one is simply not possible. too many ppc boats in your MWO? bored with a mech's hitboxes being the dictator of a particular loadout even though many mechs in the future can do it, some infact specifically made to do it?

then you need more hardpoints and a crit slot limiter system. bored with stalkers being the ideal energy boat? worried that future mechs will still be overshadowed by the highlanders duo ac ppc build with JJ capabilities? then start giving hardpoint locations crit slot limiters so that an energy arm can't jsut stack what ever it fancies but has to make a choice, for eg: want more victors being the sniper mech? leave the hard points and give it all the critslots it wants simillar to what we have now. THEN the highlander {particulay HVY MTL and 733c} give them MORE hardpoints say up to 4 or 5 energy 3 balisstic, but the crit slots for those arms and right torso are limited to 4-5 slots. that means it would no longer be a sniper mech because it can't fit sniper weapons but it would be an ideal brawler being able to fit more smaller weapons. that is how you bring purpose into more chassis without one mech dominating everyone's work and still have customising flexibility.

i've been saying this for ages and the deal still stands. you want more chassis in the game without it being overshadowed by established mechs. this is how you do it.

Piranha does not have good communication between their in game telemetry team, their store team and marketing folks. Otherwise they would have realized this. The only thing Piranha has been able to do so far is to hype these new founders packages and to sell hero mechs BEFORE letting people actually try them.

I cancelled my Phoenix order due to ghost heat, gauss, seismic and 3PV, it was just too much. Also the fact that none of the mechs would really offer mech that existing mechs could not do as a substitution good.

As long as people keeps buying the hero mechs and packages, don't expect anything to change gamewise.

[Cybermech]

before the heat change you could use a raven 2X with 2x ERPPC to some awesome effect.
it works quite well in 3pv which is funny.
legging lights or forcing lights to back off is easy enough one you land those leg shots.

with the new heat system it doesn't work out so well, it is very limited play style.

you can however do some amazing things with it, but I stopped trying maybe 1x erppc 1x PPC works best.

[Ecto Cooler]

Rhent, on 20 October 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

I cancelled my Phoenix order due to ghost heat, gauss, seismic and 3PV, it was just too much. Also the fact that none of the mechs would really offer mech that existing mechs could not do as a substitution good.

As long as people keeps buying the hero mechs and packages, don't expect anything to change gamewise.

Well now we get to the point of the entire argument of a "bad game design" because of a 2PPC Light.

[Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 21 October 2013 - 05:23 AM.
Filter Avoidance

[Sybreed]

PEEFsmash, on 20 October 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

So the OP says "how is this good game design."

Now my question is "how is it bad game design."

OP admits that this build isn't overpowered. He just has some visceral reaction to seeing 2 PPCs on a Jenner, but he knows it isn't too powerful because the build is so limiting. So, my question is, what is wrong with the fact that you can make a build that by your own admission is balanced?

You just have an intuition of "wrongness" that you want to impose, even when there is no balance issue. It's like me saying "Battlemaster shouldn't be able to carry 7 different energy weapons!" And then someone saying "But 7 different energy weapons on the same mech is just a terrible build." But then I insist "BUT 7 TYPES? THAT'S JUST WRONG. IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ITS BAD GAME DESIGN TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT RANGES OF WEAPON."

I'm upset now that it took me so long to realize that your argument is simply an exhaling of an intuition you have about what is aesthetically pleasing on a mech, and has, by your own admission, nothing to do with the balance of the game.

you do realize that the hardpoint system is the #1 cause (along with pinpoint accuracy) that we got the boring, stale, sniper meta for more than 8 months?

[Adiuvo]

Sybreed, on 20 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

you do realize that the hardpoint system is the #1 cause (along with pinpoint accuracy) that we got the boring, stale, sniper meta for more than 8 months?

No, the cause of that was the low heat on PPCs, fast PPCs, introduction of ballistic HSR, introduction of JJ assaults, among other things.

[Kazairl]

You'd be surprised how effective a build like that can be. I have had success with a Cicada 3M with a similar build with the added advantage of ECM.

[Adiuvo]

Kazairl, on 20 October 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

You'd be surprised how effective a build like that can be. I have had success with a Cicada 3M with a similar build with the added advantage of ECM.

The ECM is what makes the 3M sniper though. It's also faster and has better heat efficiency.

[Rhent]

Ecto Cooler, on 20 October 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well now we get to the point of the entire argument of a "bad game design" because of a 2PPC Light.

[Redacted]

Posts of people who swear like you do get's reported and you get a 24 hour ban. Piranha did a number on dissent, which led to the negative word of mouth for the game and an exodus of a portion of their whales to other games.

Having a light running around with 2 PPC's is an example of bad game design. I could understand a few variants of lights being allowed to carry a single PPC, but not ravens and jenners able to carry 2 by default.

Edited by John Wolf, 21 October 2013 - 05:25 AM.
Redacted Quote

[Ecto Cooler]

Rhent, on 20 October 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

Having a light running around with 2 PPC's is an example of bad game design.

Why?

[Rhent]

Ecto Cooler, on 20 October 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Why?

Read everything written above numerous times to get the picture.

[Noth]

Rhent, on 20 October 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Read everything written above numerous times to get the picture.

Everything written above seems to be you just thinking it is bad because you don't like it and then trying to pass this off as a complaint about something else.

[Rhent]

Noth, on 20 October 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Everything written above seems to be you just thinking it is bad because you don't like it and then trying to pass this off as a complaint about something else.

It comes down to the fact that the developers went down the Heat for weapon balance path. I was in the closed Beta since Sept 2012 and from then on not once did I see a Hard Point &/OR Convergence method used to balance weapons.

If you like ghost heat and think its great, that is awesome for you. I don't. I personally find the idea of a 2 PPC Jenner running around ludicrous, but the DEV's have set up a system where you will see that.

If you come to a post titled "How is this good game design" and don't expect this to be an opinion piece, then that is on your own intelligence. Join in and post, but don't expect everyone to agree with your point of view.