440 replies to this topic

[AntiSqueaker]

William Mountbank, on 07 November 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

Both cases had no misses, no failed damage, and were on an almost stationary Spider.

Well there's your problem.

I can count the number of times I've seen spiders going less than 60 km/h without being legged on one hand . I've personally never run into hitbox issues with the Spider when it's stationary/slow/legged. It's when they're running around at 150 km/h and I peg them with an AC/20 shell and see them take 0 damage that I have a hitbox/Hit registration issue with.

Edited by AntiSqueaker, 07 November 2013 - 02:10 AM.

[William Mountbank]

AntiSqueaker, on 07 November 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Well there's your problem.

From a gameplay sense I agree absolutely! But most of the examples of Spider issues posted are by people claiming a stationary Spider is invulnerable. I have observed the opposite, which I think is completely reasonable.

[Monkey Lover]

My raven and jenner last just as long as my spider.I bet most the people here just have ping problems.I bet they think theyre hitting them but they really half a second behind. I have the server drop me and for a good two minutes I could run around and shoot everyone.It looked like I was killing them but it would never register. All so, I find it funny at the end of games when you hunt down these lights 99% never hit them even when there are 5 people Shooting. Know how I kill spiders? Commado with 3 streaks and double ac20 to the legs.4 laser set to fire one after another at the legs works good.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 07 November 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Mehlan]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

No one's saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to kill a spider, we're saying there's a problem with them that makes them UNREASONABLY difficult to kill, and yeah, it's not always a consistent problem. Sometimes I can take a spider out with one round of gauss fire. Why sometimes it's different when I shoot and kill one with one shot, as opposed to having to put 6 or more into one, I don't have a clue, but I know damn well that if I put 4 shots into a Catapult's ST or CT, it will be dead. On an Atlas, I know 5 rounds and he's dead. Stalker, between 4 and 5 depending on load out. Awesome, 4. Cataphract/Jager, 3 (unless they put a standard engine in). Ravens, Jenners, and Commandos, no more than 3. Cicada, if I can get the sweet spot, 2, but 3 tops.

Spiders, however, again, upwards of 8 rounds, and with dual gauss, even if only ONE hits each shot, that's still 120 armor, and there should be missing body parts and core red showing, not outer orange damage showing.

There is something making spiders unreasonably survivable.

Anyone I've talked to, who isn't a Spider pilot (and even some Spider pilots), agree that there is a problem and have their own stories of pouring endless amounts of damage into spiders.

Hell, up until just recently (and maybe even still) we had an demonstrable issue on the Training Grounds (you've seen the vids posted here, for sure) where spiders had holes that missiles and ballistics wouldn't register. Whether or not that's now fixed is debatable, but it definitely strong evidence of the potential for an issue in the live game.

No what 'we' had was a demonstration that there was/is an issue with hit registration... and not 'spider' based. There are now multiple comments from pgi in regards to hit registration/hsr being an issue and yet, certain people keep ignoring that.

[Mordin Ashe]

They are fixing it. That means it was broken. Would it be OK, there won't be a thing to fix.

[Dimento Graven]

Mehlan, on 07 November 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

No what 'we' had was a demonstration that there was/is an issue with hit registration... and not 'spider' based. There are now multiple comments from pgi in regards to hit registration/hsr being an issue and yet, certain people keep ignoring that.

If there's a video showing the same issue in any other 'mech, I've yet to see it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but at least for now, until someone provides video proof on any other 'mech chassis, the problem appears to be specific to the spider.

[Sable Dove]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Except the spider doesn't have that much armor, and by the end of the vid not much had even changed shade, yet if I'd been doing the same against a LOLcust, Raven, Commando, or any other 'mech, it'd have been dead LONG before I broke off with the spider.

So you have an easier time killing mechs that are either significantly more frail (while being about the same size), or are significantly larger and easier to hit. How does that prove that there's an actual problem with the Spider? Mechs with worse designs are easier to kill. Mechs that are larger and slower are easier to kill. The only mechs lighter than the Spider are roughly the same size, have far worse designs, and go just barely faster, if they can at all.

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Again, YMM is V'ing from MY experience. Any other small 'mech dies and dies quickly. ONLY THE SPIDER do I have to keep hitting it.

And your personal opinion is not solid evidence of a problem. That you, personally, have trouble killing Spiders does not mean they are broken. As is the entire premise of this thread, Spiders are well-designed; they are tougher than any other light because they have a vastly superior design to other lights.

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Yeah well, it sure as **** worked for PGI taking out knock downs and f'ing up the gauss real good didn't it? "Knock downs make me die easy, it must be broken." "Gauss can kill me when I stupidly walk out in the open in a straight line ignoring cover, not bothering to change direction every once in a while, it must be broken."

PGI took collisions out after the devs got stunlocked into oblivion. It was removed because the mechanic was not fun and demonstrably caused significant issues with mechs rubberbanding. And more importantly, PGI devs experienced these problems firsthand.

On the other hand, the only actual evidence of a Spider not taking damage from hits was done with SRMs, which have known issues with registering hits. Not to mention that I'm able to reproduce the same no-damage effect occasionally on the Jenner and Victor, and can consistently reproduce zero-damage SRM2 hits on the Blackjack and Dragon. I didn't bother testing more mechs because the fact that I can consistently reproduce the exact same effect on multiple mechs shows that it is not a Spider-specific issue. Victor sometimes lost damage at the joint between its right leg and CT. Jenner I did it between the left leg and CT, but it's very hard to find the location before killing it. Dragon was on the RT, near where the arm meets it. Blackjack was the top of its arms, shooting from a lower position.

SRMs have issues. The fact that the Spider is not exempt from this is not proof that the Spider is broken.

There's also a video with an AC2 that proves that damage does not always display properly, and one with lasers that shows possibly some issue with convergence, though it only shows the perspective of the mech getting shot, so the specific problem is not really identifiable. At best, it should be experimented with to produce a repeatable procedure to get the same results. Preferably from the perspective of the shooter.

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Yeah, yeah, you can deny it all you want, you can be the Catholic Church of Spider and deny that SOB has a problem, like a SOL centric universe was denied, regardless, it's something that is an obvious issue to those who fight a LOT of different 'mechs, and who aren't Spider pilots.

You sound JUST LIKE the guys that were denying the issues with Ravens about a year ago too...

I almost never use my Spider anymore. And in every other mech I pilot, in all classes, from 20 tons to 100, Spiders do not take any less damage from actual hits than any other mech. They are harder to hit than any other mech, and they're better at spreading damage, but they do not take less damage than they should when I shoot them.

And the Raven didn't have a problem with some imaginary issue with no solid evidence. Without HSR, it was a legitimate issue to hit any mech going 150 KPH. Raven 3L had streaks, ECM (before BAP countered it), and good hitboxes (no giant CT/tiny ST), while still going as fast as possible at the time. Raven 3L was king of the lights, and without HSR, they were basically the best mechs in the game. PGI's nerf to the leg hitboxes of all the Ravens was something no one wanted, because it didn't address the issues like ECM being overpowered, or Streaks being overpowered (always hitting CT), and needlessly nerfed the 2X and 4X, which sucked already.

The Raven 3L was one of, if not the, best mech in the game at the time. One-on-one, only an Atlas D-DC stood a significant chance, and only if they used Streaks. All lights were OP because it was nigh-impossible to hit something going 150 KPH at the time, even with lasers, and the Raven 3L had the best hardpoints and armour of the lights.

The current Spider, on the other hand, arguably has issues, but no more than most other mechs in the game. Complaining that your AC20 shot didn't register against a 100+ KPH Spider doesn't show that the Spider is broken, because nearly-stationary Atlases can suck up 3 AC20 shots to the rear CT without taking damage. Hit detection in general sucks. The only evidence of a hitbox problem with the Spider was done with a weapon that is known to have terrible hit detection by itself, and only if fired one at a time, at a very specific angle and distance.


Basically, there's no hard evidence to support a Spider-specific issue. Hit detection is bad. SRMs are especially bad. Spiders are the best design among lights, while also being among the smallest and fastest.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

If there's a video showing the same issue in any other 'mech, I've yet to see it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but at least for now, until someone provides video proof on any other 'mech chassis, the problem appears to be specific to the spider.

OHOHOHOH! I quoted a post that had a video that clearly showed a Cataphrat doing it! Tha6t's one video! We even talked about it, about a page ago...

[Monkey Lover]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

I found this looking for Spiders surviving too many direct gauss hits.

By my count there's close to 10 fairly solid LB10-X AC hits, along with around 7 fairly solid 2xML hits.

The Spider barely changes shade...

Spiders are broken.

You can see in the videowhen the spider uses its jet packs and then drops it never damaged the legs.I can tell you any light dropping like this would have went into the yellow with a drop like this.What this tells me is the screen is not reporting the damage doesnt mean its not happening.You can see lots of flashing every time there are half hit.The color just never updated.Most of these were missing the target are yiu can see the damage all over the ground.

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 07 November 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

OHOHOHOH! I quoted a post that had a video that clearly showed a Cataphrat doing it! Tha6t's one video! We even talked about it, about a page ago...

We saw that post and besides the crappy quality, there was only ONE shot that was questionable, and it just happens to conveniently freeze at that point to cause lots of questions on what was actually shown.

Certainly less definitive than the video I posted.

Also it would seem that PGI agrees that there is a problem with Spiders:

Technical Update-November

Quote

...

Hit Detection

We are aware there are still some issues surrounding hit detection, particularly with SRMs and also certain Mechs hitboxes. As Paul recently posted hitboxes are being addressed and we are scheduling time for a closer look into why SRMs are suffering a loss in accuracy compared to other weapons.
...

Hit Box Plan of Action

Quote

...
First on deck:
- Awesome
- Atlas
- Orion
- ..... and the SPIDER!
...

So I guess the debate is over. The Spider has issues, and is among the first to be addressed.

[Clit Beastwood]

Monkey Lover, on 07 November 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

You can see in the videowhen the spider uses its jet packs and then drops it never damaged the legs.I can tell you any light dropping like this would have went into the yellow with a drop like this.

After 1300 drops in the 5d alone, no, not necessarily. Drive one enough and you know *exactly* how far you can fall without damage, when to tap space to slow your descent, and that what angled surfaces allow you to fall further without damage.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

We saw that post and besides the crappy quality, there was only ONE shot that was questionable, and it just happens to conveniently freeze at that point to cause lots of questions on what was actually shown.

Certainly less definitive than the video I posted.

You said if someone could show you one video. That was A video that showed a Cataphrat taking hits for 20 seconds and none of it regestering. I don't care how much health a Cataphrat has, an AC20 shot should still change it's armor color when it hits (which we can see it hitting, along with the dual PPCs which also didn't seem to change armor color, till after 20 seconds).

The video freeze was probably a recording hickup, where the computer had to slow things down to play the game, and the video program got a little jumbled as the cost. I've had similar things happen in Photoshop when I'm working in it, where it doesn't seem to be doing anything for a moment, and then catches up. That small glitch just got recorded into the video as well is all.

If I could record with my computer, I'd have a very large library of videos of red CT internal mechs shrugging off damage and not dieing, and typically killing me when I had started that fight with yellow armor and no breaches... (Among other tales of bad hit registration and HSR issues, and I have rather low ping typically.)

Just because we can't seem to record it, shouldn't make our many statements of (and by many, I mean many different people) HSR and Hit Reg being most of the problem right now, and the Spider just seems to be at the front of showing it. (And a lot of people are still complaining from the hole in the chest issue, which is now fixed but they continue to claim it's existence.)

Unless someone knows of a program that a Dual Core processor, six year old computer (with a new video card at least for this game) can handle with MWO at the same time without affecting FPS of the game? Cause, when I go to play the game, I go to enjoy it. I don't want recording to get in the way and make the game less fun...

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 07 November 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

You said if someone could show you one video. That was A video that showed a Cataphrat taking hits for 20 seconds and none of it regestering. I don't care how much health a Cataphrat has, an AC20 shot should still change it's armor color when it hits (which we can see it hitting, along with the dual PPCs which also didn't seem to change armor color, till after 20 seconds).

Every time I watch it, it's not 20 seconds.

Oh and BY THE WAY, your reading comprehension sucks, THIS, is what I said:

Quote

If there's a video showing the same issue in any other 'mech, I've yet to see it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but at least for now, until someone provides video proof on any other 'mech chassis, the problem appears to be specific to the spider.

And the video you linked didn't show it, regardless of how much you and others wishing it does.

Quote

The video freeze was probably a recording hickup, where the computer had to slow things down to play the game, and the video program got a little jumbled as the cost. I've had similar things happen in Photoshop when I'm working in it, where it doesn't seem to be doing anything for a moment, and then catches up. That small glitch just got recorded into the video as well is all.

Too questionable for me. That 'glitch' may indicate the person recording had a bad ping and as a result any delay in damage registration was due to that.

Quote

If I could record with my computer, I'd have a very large library of videos of red CT internal mechs shrugging off damage and not dieing, and typically killing me when I had started that fight with yellow armor and no breaches... (Among other tales of bad hit registration and HSR issues, and I have rather low ping typically.)

If your computer isn't capable of recording, your problems might be specific to an over burdened CPU, especially if it's consistent across all 'mechs. Again, the only 'mech I really have any issues with is the Spider, and I can record just fine while fighting, and my ping is low enough that damage registration should have suffered no delay. Here's the screen shots of pre and post match pings for me and the target Spider:

Pre-match:


Post-match:

Quote

Just because we can't seem to record it, shouldn't make our many statements of (and by many, I mean many different people) HSR and Hit Reg being most of the problem right now, and the Spider just seems to be at the front of showing it. (And a lot of people are still complaining from the hole in the chest issue, which is now fixed but they continue to claim it's existence.)

Except that comments from PGI seem to agree, the Spider has issues.

Quote

Unless someone knows of a program that a Dual Core processor, six year old computer (with a new video card at least for this game) can handle with MWO at the same time without affecting FPS of the game? Cause, when I go to play the game, I go to enjoy it. I don't want recording to get in the way and make the game less fun...

If your card is an NVidia card, at least 600 series, you can download the latest drivers and use GeForce Exprience's ShadowPlay to record. It's what I used to record the video I posted and works well (other than not catching external audio so you don't get my voice, or commentary).

Edited by Dimento Graven, 07 November 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Technical Update-November


Hit Box Plan of Action


So I guess the debate is over. The Spider has issues, and is among the first to be addressed.

You misread their statement. They are just saying that they are adjusting and looking into hit boxes, as in which part you hit registers damage where. Hit boxes has nothing to do with damage not regestering, unless they aren't seamed right and damage is going through a hole, which was fixed already on the Spider. Otherwise, are you going to admit that the Awesome, Atlas and Orion also seem to shrug off unusual amounts of damage as well? The Awesome is being looked into, because it is known to have large sides, easy to hit overall, and takes damage easy (but doesn't mean it isn't playable). The Atlas I don't see as having any problems I know of, besides a super small cockpit that is very hard to hit (not really a bad thing I guess, as if it was too easy to hit...) The Orion... well, I don't know of anything wrong with that mech as of this moment, but I don't own one, so I can't say much.

Just because they are looking into the Spider'***** boxes does not mean that there is a problem with the current hit boxes. However, they might be doing a fix similar to preHSR PPCs, which might be bad later when they do fix HSR and Hit Reg.

I'd like to just reenforce the concept that, I am not saying that "nothing is wrong with the Spider". I'm saying that I can't tell if something is wrong with the Spider till HSR and Hit Reg is fixed, then I can tell if something is wrong with the Spider. (I know when I pilot a Spider, I die as easily in that as I can in my Raven or Locust (Locust faster I will admit. My Jenner is probably a shorter lived mech for me, as I tend to run with my sides facing people, which leaves my CT to hits in that mech I'm just not use to yet.) It might be an unstable Ping issue as well, which my ping seems to stay fairly stable from what I can tell...

I'd just like to see the game effecting issues fixed before they fix something that might not need to be fixed after the general game fixes are in. Then see if something is still wrong. (It's like fixing a car. I get a misfire code, so first thing I change are sparkplug wires, sparkplugs and distributor cap. If that doesn't make it go away, check the new items. If that doesn't fix it still, look deeper and find I have a valve that broke. Fix that, and my car is all set. With MWO, it'd be like replacing the sparkplugs, wires and cap even though you know the valve needs to be fixed and the first fix wont work. It would make no sense.) The problems need to be fixed in the proper order to provide the best fix overall. Fixing one thing that isn't the problem will make things worse later on when the real problem is fixed.

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 07 November 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

You misread their statement.

I understand their statements perfectly, you're trying to brush them off in vain attempts at keeping the spider's unreasonable status quo

Quote

They are just saying that they are adjusting and looking into hit boxes, as in which part you hit registers damage where. Hit boxes has nothing to do with damage not regestering, unless they aren't seamed right and damage is going through a hole, which was fixed already on the Spider.

That's not what they stated, and if you can't understand that, more's the pity. You'll be in for quite the disappointment when they finally fix the Spider I guess.

Quote

Otherwise, are you going to admit that the Awesome, Atlas and Orion also seem to shrug off unusual amounts of damage as well?

Don't be stupid, you yourself acknowledge some of the known problems following that sentence, which has NOTHING to do with OTHER 'mechs being able to take MORE damage than they should, in fact the opposite.

Quote

The Awesome is being looked into, because it is known to have large sides, easy to hit overall, and takes damage easy (but doesn't mean it isn't playable).

Known issue, long been complained about by the users, you're right, it's not unplayable, but it also isn't anywhere near as unbalanced as the Spider.

Quote

The Atlas I don't see as having any problems I know of, besides a super small cockpit that is very hard to hit (not really a bad thing I guess, as if it was too easy to hit...)

Yeah I would imagine they'd re-review the Atlas, after the Founder's Atlas cockpit hit box fiasco.

Quote

The Orion... well, I don't know of anything wrong with that mech as of this moment, but I don't own one, so I can't say much.

It may have to do with this from one of my previous posts in another thread discussing issues with the Jager's arm hit boxes being to small and side torso boxes too large, where I analyze the known hit box locations vs. how the same components are represented in Mech Lab:

http://mwomercs.com/...es/page__st__60

Quote

...Here's what I've found:
Commando - Only difference is the head/torso representation, it's probably over 90% correct.
Spider - Same
Raven - Same, only the head representation is actually a lot closer than the previous 2, meaning it's nearly 100% correct
Jenner - Same, though the head/ct representation is WAY off on this one.
Locust - As far as I can tell, it's 100% correct

Cicada - Only difference is head/torso representation, somewhere in the 90's in correctness though.
Hunchback - Same as above, though the head representation is only slightly off in 'mech lab, it's ~98% correct.
Centurian - Same as above, though it's probably only 90% correct
Blackjack - Same as above, ~95% correct in head/torso region
Trebuchet - Same as above, ~90% correct in head/torso region
Kintaro - Don't own one, can't validate myself.
Shadohawk - Haven't seen the hit box locations published on those yet.

Cataphract - We've already established SIGNIFICANT differences, video was part of the OP
Dragon - Very close, slight difference in head/torso representation, at least 90% correct
Catapult - Same as above
Jagermech - Suffers the same issue as the Cataphract in the arm/side torso region. The arms are represented as having a larger area, and the side torsos are represented much smaller. This needs to be corrected. Interestingly enough the head/torso area is 100% correct as far as I can tell.
Quickdraw - As far as I can tell it's 100% accurate.
Orion - Don't own one, can't check.
Thunderbolt - Haven't seen the hit box locations published on those yet.

Atlas - Almost 100% correct. When clicking the head it appears to be trying to highlight the very center "nose area" of the head in 'mech lab though, which is interesting.
Stalker - Appears to be 100% correct as far as I can tell.
Highlander - Appears to suffer from the same issue as the Cataphract and Jagermech, the arms and side torsos are not represented accurately, the head is 'nearly' accurate, but includes the two side 'windows' when highlighted, it's in the 90 percentile range for accuracy though.
Awesome - The arms and side torsos are really represented wrong in 'mech lab, and the head is close to as wrong as the Cataphract.
Victor - Mostly correct, only the head is represented as taking up slightly more area than the actual hit box location.
BattleMaster - Haven't seen the hit box locations published on those yet.

The jist of this was that actual hit box locations on some 'mechs differ from how they are represented in Mech lab leading to some confusion. Which is right? Are the hit boxes on the components supposed to match what 'mech lab shows, if so, why are some 'mechs boxes not correct? If not, why? That's stupid, make the mech lab match the actual hit boxes, there's no need to confuse/lie to the players like that.

Quote

Just because they are looking into the Spider'***** boxes does not mean that there is a problem with the current hit boxes. However, they might be doing a fix similar to preHSR PPCs, which might be bad later when they do fix HSR and Hit Reg.

*********. You think they're just pulling 'mechs out their butts and looking at them for fun?

Quote

I'd like to just reenforce the concept that, I am not saying that "nothing is wrong with the Spider". I'm saying that I can't tell if something is wrong with the Spider till HSR and Hit Reg is fixed, then I can tell if something is wrong with the Spider. (I know when I pilot a Spider, I die as easily in that as I can in my Raven or Locust (Locust faster I will admit. My Jenner is probably a shorter lived mech for me, as I tend to run with my sides facing people, which leaves my CT to hits in that mech I'm just not use to yet.) It might be an unstable Ping issue as well, which my ping seems to stay fairly stable from what I can tell...

I'd just like to see the game effecting issues fixed before they fix something that might not need to be fixed after the general game fixes are in. Then see if something is still wrong. (It's like fixing a car. I get a misfire code, so first thing I change are sparkplug wires, sparkplugs and distributor cap. If that doesn't make it go away, check the new items. If that doesn't fix it still, look deeper and find I have a valve that broke. Fix that, and my car is all set. With MWO, it'd be like replacing the sparkplugs, wires and cap even though you know the valve needs to be fixed and the first fix wont work. It would make no sense.) The problems need to be fixed in the proper order to provide the best fix overall. Fixing one thing that isn't the problem will make things worse later on when the real problem is fixed.

Except that if there's problems with HSR, hit detection, AND a 'mech'***** boxes, they can get triple the advantage of a 'mech operating under only 2 of those problems. So yeah, look at hit detection AND look at HSR AND look at 'mech'***** boxes.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 07 November 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[Tesunie]

stjobe, on 22 October 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Sadly, that's not true:



That's no Spider.

Watch VERY VERY closely (change the resolution of the video to 720, max setting, if you need to. I full screened it as well).

Max armor for the CT is 88 total. IS is 44. This is the max possible for front and rear armor.
Max armor for ST is 60 total. IS would be 30 then.


0:01 seconds into it. AC20 round hits side torso. It flashed, and remains orange armor. It should have turned red or been removed to IS by numbers. (AC20 does 20 damage. It would bring a max armor from 60 to 40, which is more than a quarter of the armor gone. I presume that yellow to 0-33% damage, Orange 34-66% Damage, Red 67-100% damage. These are max stats.)

At 0:05 seconds, an AC20 round hits the rear CT armor, clearly. Doesn't even register with any flashing paperdoll or red reticule.

At 0:08 seconds, a swarm of SRMs hits all over it's front torso. With the combined hit from the AC20 hit in 0:01 seconds, even a single SRM missile hitting the left torso should cause a color change. (23 damage (min I'm guessing) to a max of 60 armor is over 33%, it should be gone by this point, yet remains orange. 33% damage to the side damage is 19 damage. And it was orange at the start of the video.)

At 0:08-0:10 Med Lasers fire into the mech, splashing the front of the mech, from several different mechs. Enough to flash the paperdoll. I'll give this anywhere from .5-3 damage spread. Probably wouldn't show up.

At 0:11 PPCs shot at over the 90m range (looks like 170ish meters) hit, flash the paper doll, but do nothing to the color of the armor. That's another 20 points of solid damage. (10 damage each PPC.)

At 0:16-0:17 damage finally starts to add onto the mech. Two PPCs hit the right arm and strip it of all armor, leaving the internals yellow.

So, without even watching farther, I see at least 15 seconds (sorry, I rounded) of complete invulnerability on the Phrat, where damage after damage hit it, and it's armor (which mind was already an orange if not a red orange at first encounter) should have been breached a lot sooner with the hits I saw happen on the screen. HSR is suppose to make what you see on your screen what "happens" on the server, as it is suppose to rewind actions based on ping levels to where they where when the shot fired. It's not exactly what you see on screen, but it is suppose to be "close enough".

Without knowing people's pings, I can't say if someone's ping fluctuated. Even if that was the case, the "problem" of the spider still happened on that Phrat. It therefor isn't just a Spider problem, though it might be more noticable on the Spider.


And you said "A" video. "A" means one where I come from. Singular. Uno. This is "A" video showing the "effect" being witnessed on a Cataphrat 4X. PPCs where all fired outside their 90m minimum range. Ping fluxtuation isn't "suppose" to be a problem with HSR, so that "Isn't" suppose to effect the results shown in the video. The one small "hickup" in the video shouldn't invalidate the the video's showings. Seen as invulnerability started at 0:01 seconds, and the glitch didn't happen till 0:06 seconds.

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Every time I watch it, it's not 20 seconds.

Oh and BY THE WAY, your reading comprehension sucks, THIS, is what I said:

And the video you linked didn't show it, regardless of how much you and others wishing it does.

Too questionable for me. That 'glitch' may indicate the person recording had a bad ping and as a result any delay in damage registration was due to that.

If your computer isn't capable of recording, your problems might be specific to an over burdened CPU, especially if it's consistent across all 'mechs. Again, the only 'mech I really have any issues with is the Spider, and I can record just fine while fighting, and my ping is low enough that damage registration should have suffered no delay. Here's the screen shots of pre and post match pings for me and the target Spider:

Pre-match:


Post-match:


Except that comments from PGI seem to agree, the Spider has issues.

If your card is an NVidia card, at least 600 series, you can download the latest drivers and use GeForce Exprience's ShadowPlay to record. It's what I used to record the video I posted and works well (other than not catching external audio so you don't get my voice, or commentary).

I don't DARE try to record, as I have no SOFTWARE to do so, and I have a SIX YEAR OLD COMPUTER. I'd rather not push it into overworking itself, as it works fine enough and I do not have the money not time to buy and set up a new computer. At least not at this moment.

I have a new Radeon R6770 video card, which is enough to get good FPS with low graphics. I have 4 Gig ram (Max I can get in it as far as I know), AMD 64 x2 Dual core 5000+ 2.60 GHz processor running on Vista. It's a 6 year old computer (or older). I'm happy I still have it considering what's happened to the poor thing in the last year alone. (Also, I should not be "forced to download software" just to "prove a point" in some forums that I spend too much time in anyway. I know, vids or it didn't happen. Whatever.)

PGI has said no such things directly out. It may be "implied" depending upon how you are reading it (perspective and all), but they did not say "The Spider has a hit box problem we didn't solve when we close the hole". Instead, I read:

Quote

Clarification:
Remember.. this is hit box tuning. As in when a Mech registers damage, it goes to the appropriate component on the Mech. This has nothing to do with hit detection which is part of HSR and is being investigated on a different development train.

If I am wrong, I want a direct quote or link with them directly saying that the Spider has hit box issues and are being fixed. Maybe I missed it...

They are thinking about rearranging the hitboxes a little. For what reasons, why and what made them decide to do that now, I know not the answers. But I have not heard them say that any of the stated mechs have hit registry issues, but that hit reg and HSR are separate problems and the Hit Box changes will not be solving any of those issues. It might alleviate them a bit, but it wont solve them.

PS: Hit reg problems have nothing to do with Ping. Ping involves with issues with HSR. Just to clarify. Also, your end screen shots don't show how much those ping numbers fluctuated during the match. Just what they where at the start and end of the match. In the middle of the match, one of your two pings should have jumped a few hundred ping, or not. I don't know. Even then, HSR is suppose to compensate for that...

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

I understand their statements perfectly, you're trying to brush them off in vain attempts at keeping the spider's unreasonable status quo

That's not what they stated, and if you can't understand that, more's the pity. You'll be in for quite the disappointment when they finally fix the Spider I guess.

Don't be stupid, you yourself acknowledge some of the known problems following that sentence, which has NOTHING to do with OTHER 'mechs being able to take MORE damage than they should, in fact the opposite.

Known issue, long been complained about by the users, you're right, it's not unplayable, but it also isn't anywhere near as unbalanced as the Spider.

Yeah I would imagine they'd re-review the Atlas, after the Founder's Atlas cockpit hit box fiasco.

It may have to do with this from one of my previous posts in another thread discussing issues with the Jager's arm hit boxes being to small and side torso boxes too large, where I analyze the known hit box locations vs. how the same components are represented in Mech Lab:

http://mwomercs.com/...es/page__st__60


The jist of this was that actual hit box locations on some 'mechs differ from how they are represented in Mech lab leading to some confusion. Which is right? Are the hit boxes on the components supposed to match what 'mech lab shows, if so, why are some 'mechs boxes not correct? If not, why? That's stupid, make the mech lab match the actual hit boxes, there's no need to confuse/lie to the players like that.

*********. You think they're just pulling 'mechs out their butts and looking at them for fun?

Except that if there's problems with HSR, hit detection, AND a 'mech'***** boxes, they can get triple the advantage of a 'mech operating under only 2 of those problems. So yeah, look at hit detection AND look at HSR AND look at 'mech'***** boxes.

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE SPIDER'S STATUS QUO. I'm not even saying if there IS or IS NOT a problem with the Spider. I'm saying I can't TELL past the HSR and Hit Reg Problems. Do you wish for me to quote the number of times I have said this, in this thread alone? There is a larger problem with HSR and Hit Reg. There may yet still be a problem with the Spider, but I can't tell past the other problems. Fix the larger problems, then see if there is a problem with the Spider.

I'll be disappointed? I own ONE spider. I have played 64 matches since the started keeping track of mech stats. I will not be disappointed when they "fix the spider". But when they do, I want them to fix it right. Not make it into an invisible blimp that you can't miss once HSR and Hit Reg is fixed... You call my reading comprehension into question? Have you read my "There might be a problem with the Spider, but I can't tell because of HSR and HR" statements? I've said it a lot of times in this thread. I still have not read that they are "looking into the Spider'***** Boxes because they are incorrect and are not taking damage". They are looking into the general shape of the boxes, and to make sure they are seamless. The Hit Boxes of the Spider may be the problem, but as I have said before, I can't personally tell. Maybe PGI can. Maybe they are just rushing something through anyway to "appease the masses". I don't know.

Once more, as I seem to have to say it over and over again just for you, is it hit boxes? Is it HSR? Is it Hit Registration? Is it a combo of two or all three? I do not know. Do you? I can't say for certain.

The Awesome is considered one of the worse Assaults in the game. Being the lightest probably doesn't help it much. Being a giant walking barn door, isn't helpful either. It'***** boxes are being looked into, so I wonder what they will do to try and help it out. However, that still doesn't mean that any changes to the Spider will fix the "problems" with it. Maybe, maybe not. I can't say, still. PGI hasn't said either. Still. (Unless you have a direct quote and link for me saying that PGI is changing the Spider'***** boxes because there is a problem with them, instead of just looking into it...)

I did not hear what happened to the Founder's head hit box. Was it as bad as the Jagermechs? If so, drats. I missed it. (I do not own the Founder's Atlas, and don't see many that I know of. Also, gave up trying to hit them in the head, as I normally can't hit it hard enough nor long enough to drop it that way.)

Mech Lab does not, and is not meant to, represent hit box locations (for the moment). I don't know why they did that, but it's what I recently read about it. (I think it was an ATDs question from a recent one. Not sure.)

I know why they are looking into the Awesome, and I have some ideas why on the Orion. Atlas I can think of a few possibles, and the Spider probably because so many people have demanded it added with whatever problems are effecting it from HSR and HR. They do not say why they are looking into each mech'***** boxes though, so you and I can only speculate on the reasons. They could have just drawn straws for all I know! (Don't think so, but the point stands.)

I agree that if a mech is having Hit box problems with HSR and HR problems all at once it will be worse, but what is HSR fault? What is HR's fault? And what is Hit Box's fault? I don't know. Maybe PGI can tell, but if they can't, I don't want them arbitrarily changing something to "see if that works". I'd rather wait a bit longer and then get the job done right the first time, then have a fix now that messes everything up worse later. (PPC's, I'm recalling and looking at you.)

So, to sum, I don't know what might be wrong with the spider. HSR and HR are known problems effecting all mechs. As long as they are off, I can't test and see what is wrong with the spider. It could be more plagued with problems simply because of it's size. It could have holes in it'***** boxes all over the place. It could have a special Star Trek cloaking device that lets it go through solid matter, preventing most damage going at them. I don't know. No one knows (except PGI maybe). Only thing we can do is speculate on what might be wrong, and I don't want any hasty decisions made off false information or poor information. I'd rather the job get done right the first time, than having to go back and redo the job several times before it's done right.

[Mehlan]

Dimento Graven, on 07 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

We saw that post and besides the crappy quality, there was only ONE shot that was questionable, and it just happens to conveniently freeze at that point to cause lots of questions on what was actually shown.

Certainly less definitive than the video I posted.

Also it would seem that PGI agrees that there is a problem with Spiders:

Technical Update-November


Hit Box Plan of Action


So I guess the debate is over. The Spider has issues, and is among the first to be addressed.

Perhaps if you read and quoted in context of the post your trying to quote....

Quote

Just keeping my promise to you that I'd keep you up to date. The first wave of tuning will appear in the mid-Nov patch.

One of the more notable things we're doing is splitting the pelvis into more appropriate sections. Imagine that we've given these Mechs thongs to wear. The thong still applies to CT (front or back), but the majority of the pelvic area will now go to the left and right leg.


Clarification:
Remember.. this is hit box tuning. As in when a Mech registers damage, it goes to the appropriate component on the Mech. This has nothing to do with hit detection which is part of HSR and is being investigated on a different development train.

Quote

I understand their statements perfectly, you're trying to brush them off in vain attempts at keeping the spider's unreasonable status quo

It's obvious from your statements that you don't...

[Monkey Lover]

Fierostetz, on 07 November 2013 - 10:18 PM, said:

After 1300 drops in the 5d alone, no, not necessarily. Drive one enough and you know *exactly* how far you can fall without damage, when to tap space to slow your descent, and that what angled surfaces allow you to fall further without damage.

I got home and my larger monitor I can see it did damage his legs . You can see the percent of the hits. It start off at 86% and ends up at 55%. I don't see why people think half hits with a LB and laser touching from head to feet should kill them with a few shots.
laser lb 81%
laser lb again 77%
lm miss
laser 76%
73% drop damage to legs
half laser hit 72%
half lb hit 69%
lb and laser hit 64%
lb and laser missing
one laser hit 62%
laser hit 57%%
laser lb hits 53%

[Tesunie]

Monkey Lover, on 08 November 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

I got home and my larger monitor I can see it did damage his legs . You can see the percent of the hits. It start off at 86% and ends up at 55%. I don't see why people think half hits with a LB and laser touching from head to feet should kill them with a few shots.
laser lb 81%
laser lb again 77%
lm miss
laser 76%
73% drop damage to legs
half laser hit 72%
half lb hit 69%
lb and laser hit 64%
lb and laser missing
one laser hit 62%
laser hit 57%%
laser lb hits 53%

Good point. Then, in the video with the Cataphrat, it took several clear hits and stayed at 58% after the first AC20 hit, which dropped it from 62% to 58%. So the first AC20 hit did do something... From there, it stayed at the 58% till 0:16 seconds, where it finally started to drop once more.

This method of recording damage is far more accurate to say that a shot did hit and do at least some damage. Easier to keep track of a single hard number, the a generalized color of sections based on a large gap of health between colors...

Edited by Tesunie, 08 November 2013 - 08:11 AM.