209 replies to this topic

[Vargralor]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

As i said before, numerically balancing using the meta game sidesteps the issue and still does not solve the problem of mass exodus to the clans for superior tech. We need to hit the problem at its core, not suppress it with other remedies to hide it.

Well it sort-of does. If the games are still competitive due to the extra numbers on the IS side then does it matter if the tech is superior? There will certainly be players that jump to the clan tech for its superior abilities but that means you lose the ability to field 12 man groups. And there will definitely be groups that steadfastly remain in IS factions. As long as the games are balanced then does it really matter if more of the players are in clan allied factions? They will just end up fighting each other more often than IS players.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Giving this thread a bump, good discussion so far.

Except for you Flounder2670. Everything you said will only kill the game faster. You clearly have never played MW2:mercs (MW2 only had clan),3 or 4 online to experience the mass exodus to Clan Tech. Clan tech needs to be nerfed / changed drastically or we the game will instantly lose half its mechs and content.


Just.

Stop.

Edited by mwhighlander, 24 October 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Nutlink]

I doubt they'll mess with the weights (and I hope they don't), but I also hope Clan tech can NOT be mounted on an IS chassis - otherwise you're pretty much ditching the IS ballistics/missiles and, depending on damage/heat values, a lot of energy weapons. Why use a 15 ton Gauss when I can save 3 tons for the exact same weapon? Or an AC20 instead of a Clan UAC20 that weighs less but with double the potential damage output?

[Tibs]

be hard to balance it .

[101011]

pbiggz, on 24 October 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

I dont entirely agree with that. I believe i mentioned in the OP that weapons should be mixed tech. If they are brought to a balance point that shouldn't be a problem, and it does happen in canon such as during the battle of twycross.


http://www.sarna.net...tle_of_Twycross

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, you tear apart flounder's half-baked argument with pleasing efficiency.

Why thank you. I suppose that I should elaborate more upon my statement (that there's no mix-tech). What I was assuming there was that we were talking about IS techs who, I believe, were unable to combine the two incompatible tech bases for quite a while.

Corvald Tyrska, on 24 October 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

That should not be an available option. If gamebreakingly powerful mechs and weapons are going to be introduced into the game then either they have to be one of:
a.) balanced by game mechanics
b.) completely replace existing mechs and tech
c.) balanced through metagaming mechanics
d.) broken and completely destroy game balance

Many people here are suggesting ways to implement option a.) and balance the tech. I would suggest that instead we leave the tech unbalanced go for option c.) and balance via the metagame mechanics.

Clan tech should not be available for use outside of Community Warfare matches except in discrete queues. No stomping PUGS with clan tech unless they queue for it. Matchmaking could have a prematch phase in Community Warfare where clan groups bid for the right to drop following clan bidding rules, i.e. bidding away numbers and tonnage. If you want to stomp in 12 Dire Wolves (no I won't call them Daishis ) then you better hope no other clan groups want to play as they will easily outbid you.

Quote

Well, you can’t really leave them as-is, can you?

[Pariah Devalis]

Indeed, while IS techs were eventually capable of installing Clan tech into IS machines, it took them around 5 years to figure it out, and even so it required either specialized equipment (which could translate into decreased weapon effectiveness) or mechs built from the ground up with the correct software/hardware to handle Clan systems.

[pbiggz]

While that may be true in the table top, also keep in mind that technically omnimechs could only mount specialized weapons that though identical to normal weaponry, could only be fitted to omni mechs. There's a certain level of complexity that can give a table top game great depth yes, but for our purposes here in an action simulator, a bit of logical simplification would not hurt us and it would go a long way to making the game more fun for everyone.

[Pariah Devalis]

You act as if an omnimech made by the Clans would want to install Inner Sphere tech (outside of relatively primitive, older second line machines). Strictly speaking, they would not. Meanwhile, Omnimechs have the benefit that any omni-module that fits will plug and play. ERPPC module has space and tonnage room? Module has the standardized Omni-ports and sockets in like an oversized Nintendo cartraige. No omni-port on that weapon module? Then too bad, no plug and play.


Yes, there is a compatibility issue between Clan and IS systems, and there should be. It should work (or not work, you know what I mean...) both ways. I firmly believe mixtech is a horrible idea and never should have been implemented in prior Mechwarrior titles. It just cheapens the mechs on both sides of the Clan/IS line and turns them into little more than armored boxes with one size fits all parts.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 25 October 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[pbiggz]

That's assuming Inner Sphere tech is inferior to clan tech when it ends up being implemented. IF WE BALANCE CLAN WEAPONRY AND MAKE IT LEVEL IN ITS EFFECTIVENESS WHILST STILL PRESERVING CERTAIN ASPECTS THAT MAKE IT STAND OUT AS A UNIQUE SYSTEM ON THE BATTLEFIELD THEN MIXED TECH IS NOT A PROBLEM.

[Pariah Devalis]

You still cheapen the mechs and the technology this way. We both don't want unbalanced weapons. However limiting clan tech to clan mechs preserves the identity of unique aspects of clan tech. Mixtech in a balanced setting would cheapen the identity.

[pbiggz]

I disagree. In community warfare they have stated that certain weapons and tech will be available to certain factions at discounted prices based on loyalty. I.E. Dragons and gauss rifles will be available to players in good standing with the draconis combine at a discounted price. PGI already stated that clans will be handled as factions in the same way, so clan weapons and mechs will be available to clan players at discounted prices, but only accessible to is players at full or inflated prices on the black market, the same way a fedcom player will have to pay full or inflated prices to buy combine tech (they dont like each other much).

And no, it doesn't cheapen the mechs. Any player who knows which way is up will know a clan mech from an inner sphere mech.

[Airox]

I hope I'm not jumping into a lions den here, but....

I find it ridiculous how many people are saying Clan Tech MUST be nerfed.

That is one solution. As has been mentioned by others, there are many other ways to make the fighting even. I would be a proponent of solutions such as advantageous terrain, additional air/artillery support, and other "after thoughts" that have a huge impact on matches.

Bottom line is everyone wants the game to be fair. Devs most of all. Nerfing Clan Tech is one option.

[Lord Ikka]

Airox, on 25 October 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I hope I'm not jumping into a lions den here, but....

I find it ridiculous how many people are saying Clan Tech MUST be nerfed.

That is one solution. As has been mentioned by others, there are many other ways to make the fighting even. I would be a proponent of solutions such as advantageous terrain, additional air/artillery support, and other "after thoughts" that have a huge impact on matches.

Bottom line is everyone wants the game to be fair. Devs most of all. Nerfing Clan Tech is one option.

It is one option, yes. It is also probably the best option due to the fact that reducing Clan range, or something along those lines, is an easier to implement solution (being a simple values change rather than any complex programming) and it will give a good balance to the game. Terrain, more arty, and other stuff sounds good, but each has an issue with it as well.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 25 October 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Vanguard319]

Why not make Clan tech more susceptible to damage? Given most clan tech is lighter, I would assume that all that power comes at being more vulnerable to damage once the outer armor is gone. This would lend itself well to IS tactics since most players are going to be using massed fire anyway. It also helps balance out the greater protective qualities of Clan Ferro-Fibrous armor.

[Pariah Devalis]

Vanguard319, on 25 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Why not make Clan tech more susceptible to damage? Given most clan tech is lighter, I would assume that all that power comes at being more vulnerable to damage once the outer armor is gone. This would lend itself well to IS tactics since most players are going to be using massed fire anyway. It also helps balance out the greater protective qualities of Clan Ferro-Fibrous armor.

That is actually a pretty good idea. Reducing the durability of clan weapons from 10 damage to 7 or 8 (aside from the Gauss which should stay just as volatile). That said, it would need to be in conjunction with other things to balance it out, since it only ever affects the weapons once you're already beat to hell. As for Clan FF, I somehow doubt PGI will give them the bonus protection that the tabletop does.

pbiggz, on 25 October 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

I disagree. In community warfare they have stated that certain weapons and tech will be available to certain factions at discounted prices based on loyalty. I.E. Dragons and gauss rifles will be available to players in good standing with the draconis combine at a discounted price. PGI already stated that clans will be handled as factions in the same way, so clan weapons and mechs will be available to clan players at discounted prices, but only accessible to is players at full or inflated prices on the black market, the same way a fedcom player will have to pay full or inflated prices to buy combine tech (they dont like each other much).

And no, it doesn't cheapen the mechs. Any player who knows which way is up will know a clan mech from an inner sphere mech.

Also, apologize for the delay in responding to you. It seems we hit an impasse on personal viewpoints here, and while I might not agree with it I will defend your right to say it. Was bound to happen, though. The two camps of mix tech vs pure tech will forever be at war with one another, but at least we both agree we do not want the weapons to be as overpowered as they are on the tabletop.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 October 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[pbiggz]

Indeed, the number one priority has to be bringing clan weapons to a balance point. If that happens, other problems, like omni-mechs lending themselves to easily to boating or mass exodus to clans for tech solve themselves. If not, pgi will have to start experimenting with other methods and that could be quite dangerous.

[Rift Hawk]

pbiggz, on 23 October 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

Here is my omnimech thread
http://mwomercs.com/...-another-issue/

Since it would be nearly impossible to attack clan weapons from a crit-slot/weight point of view, as stock mechs are all technically canon variants, and altering these values would make some canon variants impossible.

Lets stick to these three different scales for weapons. Damage, Range, and Heat. (ammo is usually better balanced on a case by case basis, so we will skip that for now).


Inner Sphere weapons in canon typically did less damage and generated less heat, but were much shorter ranged. Clan weapons did quite a bit more damage, generated more heat, and were longer ranged.

We have multiple options to bring clan weapons in line here.

Since heat, loss of damage, and loss of range are all considered nerfs, any buff to one value has to bring the others down as a cost.

We can either: Leave high range and heat, but bring down damage, or bring down heat and range to add damage.

The key to balancing here is that clan tech must be unique, but a side step. If you prefer using clan tech you should be allowed to use it, but it should bring different advantages and disadvantages to the battlefield.

Since tabletop values will simply invalidate inner sphere weapons, we can rule those out altogether.

As was mentioned in my last thread, we already established clan weapons as being mixed tech, whilst clan tech is pure-tech, so keep that in mind.

TLDR: Clan weapons are OP, nerf range to bring up damage or nerf damage to bring up range

FEEL FREE TO ADD TO THIS, SUBTRACT FROM IT, PICK IT APART, CRITICIZE IT, SACRIFICE IT TO APPEASE PAUL INOUYE, ETC. MORE IDEAS IS ALWAYS A GOOD THING, JUST KEEP IT CIVILIZED!

Stop with this right now !!!

Everyone can't wait for clans to come out. Yet everyone can't wait to nerf them. What is the point of having clans in the game if your just going to nerf their mechs and weapons ?

If your going to change the core values of the clans to balance them with the inner sphere then you might as well not bring them out at all. Your just going to end up with Inner sphere mechs that look like clan mechs.

I have read posts on this forum basically saying the following:

Clan mechs are going to be OP, nerf them.
Clan weapons are going to be OP, nerf them.
Omni points are going to be OP, nerf them.

The **** isn't even in game yet and everyone is already yelling NERF !!!

Keep in mind that clan mech WERE OP. Thats why they kicked the {Scrap} out of the inner sphere for quite some time. My honest opinion is, don't bring clans out at all. If you have to nerf something to make it work, then you shouldn't be adding it in the first place.

Thats the problem with the 3050 timeline. If they were going to add clans they should have started the game with a timeline more toward 3075-3100. Then this wouldn't even be an issue.

Quick edit: Keep in mind that Clan mechs also cost far more to produce. A summoner cost around 21M C-bills. Compaired to the most expensive IS heavy thats what ? 7.5m ?

Edited by Imperial X, 26 October 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Abrams]

It sounds like the game makers are taking a step back and looking at how one would improve on Star league type weapons after the clan honor rules were introduced. The IS warfare style is still based on massive armies using tactics and teamwork to defeat each other. On the other hand clan combat is nothing more than a duel of two mechs. The question is how would one improve on star league weapons to adapt to these changes? Why don’t Clan mechs carry much ammo? In a duel type environment one is going for the quick kill and not a long drawn out fight. (I will either win or be dead before I run out of ammo) Running hot, once again same idea of drop your opponent before you overheat. And with clan honor one would think a mech could not be engaged by a new challenger while your mech was running hot / shutdown due to temps. As for reload times I would adjust that based more on DPS and not an across the board reduction in reload times vs. IS weapons. (a clan ultra ac-2 could pump out more rounds than a clan ultra ac-20 but could never catch the damage output once the ac-20 was in range) I am less sure of what to do for weapon range. I am not sure how far apart clan mechs started engaging each other. What I do know is the clans got rid of hand to hand mech combat. So maybe clan weapons would have a greater minimal range vs the IS weapons. (give the IS a way to get in close to counter the longer reach of the clans)

Each clan itself should be tweaked to reflect the styles of each clan;

Clan Wolf: Can push the limits of the honor system without penalty

Smoke Jaguar: Gets to drop with a stronger force (battle value) in each fight

Nova Cats: less heat when using laser weapons (or an adjustment to the ghost heat for this clan only)

Diamond Sharks: Have more ammo on hand / access to a wider range of mechs or amount of weapons is stock (the wal-mart clan)

Jade Faclon: One of the more brutal clans, but don’t think straight out killing of IS players would fly in this game. (the game over if you lose to them clan) Maybe a lockout of you mech for some time period to give the impression that the mech you dropped in (and lost) took so much damage its not available for x number of battles

Ghost Bear: Start the game as a crusader clan with a hate for merc units so IS players going against this clan should suffer some additional loss vs. a house unit

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Vanguard319, on 25 October 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Why not make Clan tech more susceptible to damage? Given most clan tech is lighter, I would assume that all that power comes at being more vulnerable to damage once the outer armor is gone. This would lend itself well to IS tactics since most players are going to be using massed fire anyway. It also helps balance out the greater protective qualities of Clan Ferro-Fibrous armor.

Another good suggestion brought up before, and honestly one of the better ones if compounded with minor alterations to clan tech in general.

Reasoning behind reducing Clan equipment internal HP values is because EVERYTHING takes up less criticals. Lets take an IS AC10 compared to a Clan UAC10 (Clanners don't have standard AC10's). Suppose both AC10 and CUAC10 both have 10 internal health value, as retained by current values...

...The CUAC10 instantly has a massive advantage due to having fewer criticals and therefore having a less likelyhood of being critted. [(4 crits over the AC10's 7) C 4/10 , IS 7/10 , crit/hp] The equivalnce of having about 17.5 hp if it were to taken up all 7 crits.

Due to having same hp values and a much smaller crit "window" to be hit, all Clan weapons/equip carry an inherit advantage of being waaaay more survivable. The opposite should be true. To reduce that window so they are more fragile, most HP values would have to be almost cut by 50% so they are more fragile. That would mean a CUAC10 would need to have an HP value closer to 5 rather than the IS AC10 of 10 to begin being more fragile due to the reduced criticals they require.

Again, another nice solution to nerf clan tech -- but this one solution doesn't fix Clan's super OP by itself. It would need to be compounded by other solutions in order to fix them from breaking the game in half, like a twig, by an MMA fighter.

Edited by mwhighlander, 26 October 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Abrams, on 26 October 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

It sounds like the game makers are taking a step back and looking at how one would improve on Star league type weapons after the clan honor rules were introduced. The IS warfare style is still based on massive armies using tactics and teamwork to defeat each other. On the other hand clan combat is nothing more than a duel of two mechs. The question is how would one improve on star league weapons to adapt to these changes? Why don’t Clan mechs carry much ammo? In a duel type environment one is going for the quick kill and not a long drawn out fight. (I will either win or be dead before I run out of ammo) Running hot, once again same idea of drop your opponent before you overheat. And with clan honor one would think a mech could not be engaged by a new challenger while your mech was running hot / shutdown due to temps. As for reload times I would adjust that based more on DPS and not an across the board reduction in reload times vs. IS weapons. (a clan ultra ac-2 could pump out more rounds than a clan ultra ac-20 but could never catch the damage output once the ac-20 was in range) I am less sure of what to do for weapon range. I am not sure how far apart clan mechs started engaging each other. What I do know is the clans got rid of hand to hand mech combat. So maybe clan weapons would have a greater minimal range vs the IS weapons. (give the IS a way to get in close to counter the longer reach of the clans)

Each clan itself should be tweaked to reflect the styles of each clan;

Clan Wolf: Can push the limits of the honor system without penalty

Smoke Jaguar: Gets to drop with a stronger force (battle value) in each fight

Nova Cats: less heat when using laser weapons (or an adjustment to the ghost heat for this clan only)

Diamond Sharks: Have more ammo on hand / access to a wider range of mechs or amount of weapons is stock (the wal-mart clan)

Jade Faclon: One of the more brutal clans, but don’t think straight out killing of IS players would fly in this game. (the game over if you lose to them clan) Maybe a lockout of you mech for some time period to give the impression that the mech you dropped in (and lost) took so much damage its not available for x number of battles

Ghost Bear: Start the game as a crusader clan with a hate for merc units so IS players going against this clan should suffer some additional loss vs. a house unit

Good thoughts, they are. Especially that bit about how to adapt the weapons to a dueling environment. However, I think K.I.S.S. is important when suggesting balance options. Having to code specific Clan perks may be too complicated, and at the very least would be time consuming. Plus, it starts to mess with balance in unpredictable ways.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 October 2013 - 07:53 AM.