209 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Karl Streiger, on 15 November 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

The number vs number ratio would hardly work in MWO.
Look you are able to "min/max" your omni Mechs. For example the hellbringer has extreme potential that could be bolstered by FF and ES.
A full min/maxed Hellbringer is a match for 2 5S Thunderbolt.

Next to that - the lion share of IS Mechs should be mediums...regarding the fire power of Clan Mechs - mediums hardly have the chance of snowflake in hell - > when hit by ER-PPCs or Large ER-Lasers.
Don't even mention the UAC 10 or UAC 20.

The only disadvantage for Clan Mechs:
you have to mix your weapon loads...for maximal optimum.

Though, we've already heard PGI's intention to not have Clan tech be so much more powerful than IS tech as it has been in the past.

One way that they could do this (or, at least get started with it) is to re-spec the weapons to match the TT versions of the IS counterparts in each field other than weight and criticals.
Take, for example, the UAC/5:

• Weight: 9.0t (IS), 7.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 5 criticals (IS), 3 criticals (Clan)
  
• Ammo/Ton: 30 shells
  
• Damage per Salvo: 5/shell
  
• Heat per Salvo: 1/shell
  
• Recycle Time: 1.50s per shell (with double-shot at 0.75s per shell)
  
• Optimal Range: 600 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 1800 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 400,000 c-bills (IS), 600,000 c-bills (Clan)
  
• Ammunition Cost: 10,800 c-bills

And, as another example, famed UAC/20 (available to the Clans during the invasion, not available to the IS until 3060):

• Weight: 15.0t (IS), 12.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 10 criticals (IS), 8 criticals (Clan)
  
• Ammo/Ton: 7 shells
  
• Damage per Salvo: 20/shell
  
• Heat per Salvo: 7/shell
  
• Recycle Time: 4.0s per shell (with double-shot at 2.0s per shell)
  
• Optimal Range: 300 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 900 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 960,000 c-bills (IS), 1,440,000 c-bills (Clan)
  
• Ammunition Cost: 24,000 c-bills

Unless otherwise noted, the above specifications are using the values that would be attributed to the IS version of the UAC/5 and UAC/20 for both versions (with the main differences being the loss of 30 meters off the CUAC/5's optimal range and the loss of 60 meters off the CUAC/20's optimal range, and the corresponding decreases of the maximum ranges).

This could also work the same way for the energy weapons, as well. Take, for example, the ER-PPC:

• Weight: 7.0t (IS), 6.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 3 criticals (IS), 2 criticals (Clan)
  
• Damage per Salvo: 10/bolt
  
• Heat per Salvo: 15/bolt
  
• Recycle Time: 4.0s per bolt
  
• Optimal Range: 810 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 1620 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 600,000 c-bills (IS), 900,000 c-bills (Clan)

(Yes, the per-salvo damage output of the Clan ER-PPC could/would be reduced from 15/bolt to 10/bolt under this proposal.)

Basically, "Clan tech" becomes "lighter and smaller but otherwise identical to Star League tech/IS Tech Level 2)".
The Clans' "advantage", then, comes more from having weapons that are not yet available to the IS that would have longer optimal and effective ranges anyway (such as the small and medium ER Lasers & the other classes of LB-X and Ultra autocannons) rather than from the inherent capabilities of the weapons themselves.

Thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 17 November 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[pbiggz]

Strum Wealh, on 15 November 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Though, we've already heard PGI's intention to not have Clan tech be so much more powerful than IS tech as it has been in the past.

One way that they could do this (or, at least get started with it) is to re-spec the weapons to match the TT versions of the IS counterparts in each field other than weight and criticals.
Take, for example, the UAC/5:

• Weight: 9.0t (IS), 7.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 5 criticals (IS), 3 criticals (Clan)
  
• Ammo/Ton: 30 shells
  
• Damage per Salvo: 5/shell
  
• Heat per Salvo: 1/shell
  
• Recycle Time: 1.50s per shell (with double-shot at 0.75s per shell)
  
• Optimal Range: 600 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 1800 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 400,000 c-bills (IS), 600,000 c-bills (Clan)
  
• Ammunition Cost: 10,800 c-bills

And, as another example, famed UAC/20 (available to the Clans during the invasion, not available to the IS until 3060):

• Weight: 15.0t (IS), 12.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 10 criticals (IS), 12 criticals (Clan)
  
• Ammo/Ton: 7 shells
  
• Damage per Salvo: 20/shell
  
• Heat per Salvo: 7/shell
  
• Recycle Time: 4.0s per shell (with double-shot at 2.0s per shell)
  
• Optimal Range: 300 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 900 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 960,000 c-bills (IS), 1,440,000 c-bills (Clan)
  
• Ammunition Cost: 24,000 c-bills

Unless otherwise noted, the above specifications are using the values that would be attributed to the IS version of the UAC/5 and UAC/20 for both versions (with the main differences being the loss of 30 meters off the CUAC/5's optimal range and the loss of 60 meters off the CUAC/20's optimal range, and the corresponding decreases of the maximum ranges).


This could also work the same way for the energy weapons, as well. Take, for example, the ER-PPC:

• Weight: 7.0t (IS), 6.0t (Clan)
  
• Volume: 3 criticals (IS), 2 criticals (Clan)
  
• Damage per Salvo: 10/bolt
  
• Heat per Salvo: 15/bolt
  
• Recycle Time: 4.0s per bolt
  
• Optimal Range: 810 meters
  
• Maximum Range: 1620 meters
  
• Weapon Cost: 600,000 c-bills (IS), 900,000 c-bills (Clan)

(Yes, the per-salvo damage output of the Clan ER-PPC could/would be reduced from 15/bolt to 10/bolt under this proposal.)


Basically, "Clan tech" becomes "lighter and smaller but otherwise identical to Star League tech/IS Tech Level 2)".
The Clans' "advantage", then, comes from more having weapons that are not yet available to the IS that would have longer optimal and efective ranges anyway (such as the small and medium ER Lasers & the other classes of LB-X and Ultra autocannons) rather than from the inherent capabilities of the weapons themselves.

Thoughts?

Doesn't sound bad to me. The thing people need to understand is that CW when it is fully implemented will give us SOME differentiation of mechs from faction to faction (I.E. Steiner scout lances and Draconis combine fielding more dragons and freakish energy variants). This is because they intend to make those faction specific chassis more readily available to people in good standing with those factions. The same should and likely will go for clans. IS players will pay full price or more for clan mechs, but clan players will pay much less, while clan players will pay more for IS tech, this will mean that the bulk of clan players will field clan tech despite it being level with IS due to it just being more readily available, and IS players will field more IS tech. Mixing should naturally occur, especially among mercenary units, but it shouldn't be much of an issue. Your clan identity will be saved, and so will the balance. If IS and clan tech are leveled then there is no need for further measures such as 10v12 that would simply confuse and add convolution.

[Strum Wealh]

pbiggz, on 15 November 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

Doesn't sound bad to me. The thing people need to understand is that CW when it is fully implemented will give us SOME differentiation of mechs from faction to faction (I.E. Steiner scout lances and Draconis combine fielding more dragons and freakish energy variants). This is because they intend to make those faction specific chassis more readily available to people in good standing with those factions. The same should and likely will go for clans. IS players will pay full price or more for clan mechs, but clan players will pay much less, while clan players will pay more for IS tech, this will mean that the bulk of clan players will field clan tech despite it being level with IS due to it just being more readily available, and IS players will field more IS tech. Mixing should naturally occur, especially among mercenary units, but it shouldn't be much of an issue. Your clan identity will be saved, and so will the balance. If IS and clan tech are leveled then there is no need for further measures such as 10v12 that would simply confuse and add convolution.

Though, part of the issue with using pricing in that way is that it only becomes a significant factor if/when some form of repair&rearm is (re)implemented (such that c-bills become a more-limited resource) or for newer players (for whom c-bills would already be a limited resource); the "old hands" would likely already be sitting on so many c-bills that purchasing whole stables of out-of-faction tech has little impact on their virtual coffers.

Also, how would asymmetric numbers necessarily "simply confuse and add convolution"?
I believe it can be explained rather well, the underlying system (e.g. a matchmaker system that can go through certain criteria and stop searching when a given team meets those criteria) needed to do it is already largely in place, and it (and 11 vs 12, and 10 vs 11, and so on) already happens often enough anyway due to disconnects and failing to find enough players who meet the selection criteria.

[Odanan]

10 vs 16 is a number that seems fair (in terms of strength), it's canon-wise (Clan using multiples of 5 and IS using multiples of 4) and closer to the current 12 vs. 12 (only two more players - not a huge performance impact).

That way you don't need to change every single piece of Clan tech. (The best solutions are usually the simpler ones)

But you want to find convoluted solutions and find crazy numbers and systems for each equipment? Go on...

[Thariel]

without reading everything:

Clan weapons are superior in every aspect, clan mechs are superior, clan pilots are superior.
TT-Canon gives a good idea, novels are total nonsense.

Since TT-Lore is almost discarded with our current mechlab (engine, structure, armor, weapons, etc. changes), PGI can do whatever they want. If they want to try and stick with the TT-lore, they will have to buff the clan mechs even further above the normal omni-status, with maybe perama endosteel without crit usage and ferro 7 crits but 30% more armor than normal possible and maybe 10 additional heatsinks for every mech without tonnage/crit usage.

on top of that clan weapons with 25-100% more damage, 25-50% more range and 0-20% more heat.

The only way balancing this i see, is having clan/Is seperated and just drop 1 star vs 1 company.

[Ultra-Laser]

flounder2760, on 24 October 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

i say this about conversion because, if we dont have it, how are IS pilots gonna fill their shiny atlasi with clan er medium lasers and uac/20s to deal with the clan threat i believe many IS mechs grabbed as much clan tech as they could from salvaging destroyed clan mechs to offset the tech advantage. IIC variants anyone?

IIC variants were actually manufactured ONLY by the Clans because Omnimechs were so expensive that they have to use conventional battlemechs on garrison duty. Which is the opposite of what you seem to be thinking.

flounder2760, on 24 October 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

most of balance issues can be solved by fixing MM to throw lighter chassis of clan mechs versus heavier drops of IS. leave weapons the way they are would make for more interesting gameplay

I hope they do something like this because I want to drop vs an entire binary of Uller As.

[Gremlich Johns]

PGI should have just started MW:O in 3025......

[CyclonerM]

Gremlich Johns, on 16 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

PGI should have just started MW:O in 3025......

Or in 3067..

[pbiggz]

Gremlich Johns, on 16 November 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

PGI should have just started MW:O in 3025......

You say that about everything...

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

Or in 3067

Jihad?

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 16 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Jihad?

Neg, FedCom Civil War. Unless you want to put in the game nukes as consumables
You know, usual stuff, better weapons available to the IS and even some reverse-enginereed Omnimechs. Easier balance, probably. There is a reason if no MechWarrior game ever was set in the Clan invasion era, quiaff?

edit: do not get me wrong, the Clan invasion is my favourite era. Clans, prominent role of the Wolves, misterious invaders, new heroes, Ulric's plan, subterfuges, Clan politics.. You know, usual stuff

Edited by CyclonerM, 16 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Odanan]

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Neg, FedCom Civil War. Unless you want to put in the game nukes as consumables

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

You know, usual stuff, better weapons available to the IS and even some reverse-enginereed Omnimechs. Easier balance, probably.

Still, Clan tech is much superior. Just compare XL Engines, DHS, ES and FF.

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

There is a reason if no MechWarrior game ever was set in the Clan invasion era, quiaff?

Only the 2 best ones.

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

edit: do not get me wrong, the Clan invasion is my favourite era. Clans, prominent role of the Wolves, misterious invaders, new heroes, Ulric's plan, subterfuges, Clan politics.. You know, usual stuff

Bah... Wolves are the Davions of the Clans. Too mainstream for my taste.

[CyclonerM]

Odanan, on 16 November 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Still, Clan tech is much superior. Just compare XL Engines, DHS, ES and FF.

Still better than Clan tech vs 3052 IS Tech.

Quote

Only the 2 best ones.

I would not include MW2 and MW3. In the first there were only Clans, in the third one i think there were some of the new IS weapons but i cannot really speak about it. Anyway, this game will be hard to balance when the Clans come.

Quote

Bah... Wolves are the Davions of the Clans. Too mainstream for my taste.

True, but they are the best Clan. And to be clear, my favourite SS is the FWL, not the "good guys" Davion (2nd one, though).

[Ghostwolfe]

I'm going to keep this short. Too much forum raging if you get the drift.

PGI will never make a viable clan mech like a Warawk. We have too many people crying over things like a Jager having two AC20's to ever make a usable Warhawk with 4 CLAN ER PPC's.

I'm sure PGI wants the $$$$ clan mechs would bring but fo now lets just wait an see what happens with CW. I'm one of the crowd saying no more $$$ until CW comes out. But really, you want to talk about Clan tech this early? They have not fixed hit registration yet , the ghost heat or a number of things and you want to talk about clan tech????

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Neg, FedCom Civil War. Unless you want to put in the game nukes as consumables

FedCom civil war started in 3062 and ended in 3067,

http://www.sarna.net...edCom_Civil_War

The Jihad starts shortly after.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jihad

[Odanan]

CyclonerM, on 16 November 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

I would not include MW2 and MW3. In the first there were only Clans, in the third one i think there were some of the new IS weapons but i cannot really speak about it. Anyway, this game will be hard to balance when the Clans come.

You miss the best Mechwarrior game ever.

[Hornviech]

So I don´t know if it is the right way to nerf clan weapons.
It is what makes the Clans so powerful in the first place.
But there where weapons after the clan Invasion that only the IS had, like Tandem Charge missles, swarm mssles, etc.
I don´t think the Honor System of the Clans can be implemented (one on one fight) but why not go over a Battlevalue System.
All the tech in the Battletechuniverse has a Battlevalue the clan tech a Little more the IS tech less. In addition 2stars against 3 Lances I think that should even the strenght of both "Armies".
Well the Machmaking should be remapped it should have been done in the first place.
The matchmaking should´nt go after Tonnage it should go after Battlevalue.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 16 November 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

FedCom civil war started in 3062 and ended in 3067,

http://www.sarna.net...edCom_Civil_War

The Jihad starts shortly after.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jihad

Odanan, on 16 November 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

[/size]
You miss the best Mechwarrior game ever.

pbiggz, on 16 November 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

FedCom civil war started in 3062 and ended in 3067,


The Jihad starts shortly after.

I know, I was thinking about the setting of MW4, 3067 tech for IS (no Jihad? :S ) with no mixtech would reduce the gap between IS and Clans. The Jihad might be good for Community Warfare but very few like it (I know little about it..).

The FedCom Civil War, btw, may exclude the other factions.. same for the Refusal War.. And the Smoke Jaguar annihilation..The Succession Wars may have worked but no Clans.. And not being an old school BT player i have no such love for the 3025 tech and era.. I would have loved MW5 set in the succession wars era but there should be expansions available later

[Devillin]

CyclonerM, on 24 October 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

This makes an ***** of me if i think there should be Puretech since in either case IS tech will become obsolete (especially if Clan tech is not nerfed though they already said it will) and want 10vs12? The latter should be in the game anyway, if not for balance purposes, to respect the Clans military organization. I'd be disappointed if Clan factions will be organized in lances..

I agree with going Puretech, as written in the original TT. The leveling factor shouldn't be to nerf the weapons, but to follow all of the aspects of the Clans in the TT that made things equal. 2 Stars of 10 Mechs versus 3 Lances of 12 Mechs. Variable weapon layouts, but hardwired equipment and engines on the Omnimech Chassis; versus hardwired weapons layout, but variable equipment and engines on BattleMech Chassis. A 2 mech advantage at the start of every match should be more than enough, but if you want to add more disadvantage, restrict clanners to only use Omnimechs. Sure, in-universe, the Clans had BattleMechs also, but they were relegated to secondary support units.

As far as the concern about Inner Sphere pilots getting access to Clan weapons, make that access just as restrictive as it was on the TT. You only get access to those weapons you are able to blow off a Clan Omnimech via a critical hit, and if your team wins the match. Blow an Ultra AC20 off an Omnimech? Nice. Your team still loses the match? Too bad, no Clan UAC20 for you. Sure there might come a time in game where we might be able to auction off equipment and weapons to other players, but I can guarantee from other games that Clan EQ will go for far more than they are actually worth. I think the hardest item to get would be Clan Double Heatsinks, especially since the only ones available for an IS pilot to salvage would be any they might get lucky enough to blow off that are in an Omnipod (heatsinks, like engines, are hardwired to Omnimech chassis). So to get a Clan DHS, you'd have to be lucky enough to 1) run into a Clanner that put extra HS into an Omnipod, 2) blow said Omnipod off his Omnimech, and 3) win the match. And then do that enough times to replace all of the IS DHS on your mech with the Clan ones. Yeah, good luck with that.

[CyclonerM]

I am not sure if Clan DHS can be mounted on BattleMechs.. But weapons cannot for sure, those are weapon pods, uncompatible with BattleMechs (especially in 3050!).
I totally agree with puretech, restricting Clanners to front line Omnimechs and giving them their disadvantages. As you can see, i have long discussed this issues..

[Devillin]

Corvald Tyrska, on 24 October 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

...lock the targetting system of Omnimechs to prevent them from targeting a mech another friendly has targeted (Clan honor forbids teaming up on targets) and then I don't think there are many problems with clan weapons being superior to IS weapons.

This is the first time I have heard of this as an option to enforce the Clan honor system. If the devs can't enact a target lockout where your targeting system doesn't allow you to lock onto a target one of your Starmates is locked onto, the other option would be to have a target penalty system in the background that works in the reverse of the bonuses you get for NARC or TAG. So that for each mech that has a lock on a target, there is a cumulative % penalty. So if two starmates target your opponent, you suffer a -10% penalty to your hits.