103 replies to this topic

[mike29tw]

ShadowVFX, on 23 October 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'd like to see Pulse Lasers work more like ballistics that deliver all their damage near-instantly to 1 location. The "pulse" from Pulse Lasers should be reduced to almost an instantaneous burst. I would gladly take Medium Pulse Lasers over Medium Lasers if I knew that the reduced range and increased heat came with the benefit of dealing all damage to the location I was over when I pulled the trigger. This would also be a great counter to light mechs as an energy boat.

How about let's start with something similar first? Make pulse lasers damage correspond to their actual pulses. Medium pulse lasers would do 1.2 damage per pulse for 5 pulses in 0.6 sec for example. If they still suck, either increase the damage, or reduce the number of pulses while keeping the over all damage the same.

[espritjaeger]

mike29tw, on 23 October 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

I think we can all agree that under certain circumstances pulse lasers are better than regular lasers. The thing is, for the 1 out of 5 situations where they work better than regular lasers, they simply don't worth the heat, the reduced range, and the weight.

I currently am at a 2.49 K/D ratio on my Cicada 3M, which I equip with 4 MPL's and 1 MG. My ratio is actually lower than before, b/c I was trying out some experimental builds for the last two days.

With my 4 MPL's, I would get up to 6 kills in a single match. My KD Ratio and 5/6 kill matches paint a diferent story than what you seem to believe.

With your logic, it's like me saying that sniper weapons are not good, because they only excel in specific circumstances. Well? It's fine if you set yourself up to shoot from a safe sniping position, maximizing your potential. Same with the pulse lasers... I set myself up to do maximum impact. I come into a brawl, start pulsing away at stripped locations, taking out a torso or outright killing a mech, then continue to the next fight. When it's 1 on 1, I take advantage of my maneuverability, and kill their rear CT.

Just because you theorize something and it sounds logical, does not make it true. I have actual results, and actual results trumps theory.

You don't bring a snipe rifle to do close quarters combat. You do not bring a rifle to take down a tank. You do not bring a shotgun to a sniper fight. However... If you have a sniper rifle, you set yourself up in a sniping position. If you have a rifle, you try to setup a scenario that benefits your rifle. If you have a shotgun, you try and fight in close quarters.

My point is it's not that weapon X is always better than weapon Y. When you are using weapon Y, you use tactics that leverages weapon Y's abilities. If you use weapon X, you alter your tatics accordingly. By doing so, you multiply the effectiveness of whatever weapon you are using. By saying weapon Y is useless because you (personally) do not often find yourself in a situation to take advantage of its abilities is just... bleh.... What next? Light mechs are always inferior to heavies or assaults because when you stand there and shoot each other in the face, you always lose? That's because your fighting style is ill suited to do face to face exchanges. Go maneuver behind their mech, and blow their rear CT while they struggle to get you into their crosshairs.

It's all about how you use the weapon, and how you fight. If you have a MPL, fight like you have a MPL. Trying to use a pulse laser like a regular laser, then complaining about range disadvantages just makes no sense. It's like me complaining that regulars suck because they take too logn to deliver their full beam damage, thus they are inferior.

Edited by espritjaeger, 23 October 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[impaledface]

The reason I run large pulse on some of my builds, is because either I get tired of ppcs, and have extra tonnage and no room, or its for the wub-wub sounds. Besides that though the large pulse need a good buff, and the medium needs a buff as well.

If they did a revamp on the way pulse lasers work, I would prefer them to be a dps style where they have a constant stream of shots or something.

[Shadey99]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Or did you not use the Heat Scale when you played TT?

I did, and if you watched these forums I've said that MWO has a seriously screwed up heat scale and heat dissipation. However nothing said you had to fire every weapons in TT at once and it doesn't mean that in MWO either. It hurts my head when people say you shouldn't be able to fire 2 PPCs at once (heat neutral at 10 DHS or 20 SHS in TT).

Now sure in TT even weapons fired at the same time went everywhere, but that was part of the abstraction and nothing even in lore suggests that a pair of PPCs (say in a classic marauder) would not be fired at the same time. Aiming 2 weapons from two arms was 'tough' in lore, targets would be moving you would be as well (unless standing still), and it is hard to hit moving targets accurately are all TT reasons for hit location tables. None of that translates to MW as firing multiple weapons at one spot is 'easy' as long as the weapons hit at all and where fired at the same time it is reasonable they hit the same place. The exception to this is the lasers which are all DoT weapons (and hitscan).

Btw I suggested PGI should let us test a 'fires once per 10 second with each weapon' version of this game. Most FPS players booed and hissed and said no one would ever play it. Some other TT player though supported it. Drop the double armor, halve the heat scale (and up the dissipation) and give us true stock with weapons that fire once every 10 seconds and just see how it works.

[Elyam]

To the OP topic of pulse lasers, they aren't presently delivering enough of a bonus to justify their negatives in MWO - though they aren't too far off. What they do for us doesn't match the +2 to-hit they have as a justifying bonus in TT. What would? Perhaps if they dropped the beam duration even further. But what might be better is a wider effect area. The TT bonus to hit the target reflects the notion that the pulsed emission causes a widening of the beam effect area due to increased intensity.

This could be accomplished by showing the pulse beam to be thicker and more intense at the peak of each pulse, and literally making it thicker for hit-scan purposes. This includes keeping the present shorter duration as well. Perhaps this would be enough to equal the +2 bonus in TT and justify their higher weight, heat, and shorter range.

As for the sub-discussion of the post on competition vs immersion players, this difference will always exist, and can be best handled by separate iterations of the game running in parallel. They would be close and technically capable of and built to the same specs (necessary to control development cost), but with some configuration differences. This would garner the highest player base.

Edited by Elyam, 23 October 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Fut]

Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

I did, and if you watched these forums I've said that MWO has a seriously screwed up heat scale and heat dissipation.

Sorry, Man. I spend way too much time on the forums, but this is the first time I've ever noticed your name.
Not intended to offend or anything, I just haven't noticed you in any conversations until now.

I'm glad that you agree that MWO's Heat Scale/Dissipation if borked though.

Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

However nothing said you had to fire every weapons in TT at once and it doesn't mean that in MWO either.

Wait. Didn't you just say:

Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Now this i don't understand. Almost never in TT did anyone ever fire just one weapon per 10 second turn. People fired as many weapons as they had and wanted to fire. Which is exactly what we do in mwo.

So... Um... Which is it? Did people in TT fire as much as they wanted or not?
Is that what people should be able to do in MWO or not?

Shadey99, on 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

It hurts my head when people say you shouldn't be able to fire 2 PPCs at once (heat neutral at 10 DHS or 20 SHS in TT).

Sorry, but I haven't seen anybody say that 2 PPCs at once should be a no-go.
People should be able to fire off 2 or 3, or 4 PPCs at once if they want - BUT, their heat should go through the roof, and there should be some consequences to that.
Unless, like you said, they have an appropriate amount of Heat Sinks installed to negate that heat.

Edited by Fut, 23 October 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[mike29tw]

espritjaeger, on 23 October 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I currently am at a 2.49 K/D ratio on my Cicada 3M, which I equip with 4 MPL's and 1 MG. My ratio is actually lower than before, b/c I was trying out some experimental builds for the last two days.

With my 4 MPL's, I would get up to 6 kills in a single match. My KD Ratio and 5/6 kill matches paint a diferent story than what you seem to believe.

With your logic, it's like me saying that sniper weapons are not good, because they only excel in specific circumstances. Well? It's fine if you set yourself up to shoot from a safe sniping position, maximizing your potential. Same with the pulse lasers... I set myself up to do maximum impact. I come into a brawl, start pulsing away at stripped locations, taking out a torso or outright killing a mech, then continue to the next fight. When it's 1 on 1, I take advantage of my maneuverability, and kill their rear CT.

Just because you theorize something and it sounds logical, does not make it true. I have actual results, and actual results trumps theory.

You don't bring a snipe rifle to do close quarters combat. You do not bring a rifle to take down a tank. You do not bring a shotgun to a sniper fight. However... If you have a sniper rifle, you set yourself up in a sniping position. If you have a rifle, you try to setup a scenario that benefits your rifle. If you have a shotgun, you try and fight in close quarters.

My point is it's not that weapon X is always better than weapon Y. When you are using weapon Y, you use tactics that leverages weapon Y's abilities. If you use weapon X, you alter your tatics accordingly. By doing so, you multiply the effectiveness of whatever weapon you are using. By saying weapon Y is useless because you (personally) do not often find yourself in a situation to take advantage of its abilities is just... bleh.... What next? Light mechs are always inferior to heavies or assaults because when you stand there and shoot each other in the face, you always lose? That's because your fighting style is ill suited to do face to face exchanges. Go maneuver behind their mech, and blow their rear CT while they struggle to get you into their crosshairs.

It's all about how you use the weapon, and how you fight. If you have a MPL, fight like you have a MPL. Trying to use a pulse laser like a regular laser, then complaining about range disadvantages just makes no sense. It's like me complaining that regulars suck because they take too logn to deliver their full beam damage, thus they are inferior.

It's good that you start with your K/D ratio in your Cicada 3M because now it's easier for me to refute your point.
My Cicada 3M has never had any pulse laser on it, and it's sitting at 2.56 K/D ratio. Try 3 medium lasers and a large laser. Same weight but miles more flexible than 4 medium pulse lasers. More heat efficient too. And the best part? You can still do what you always like to do with 4 medium pulse lasers, that is running behind people and backstab them, with addition ability to poke at long range enemies.

You're right, sniper rifles are not meant for close quater combat. But in this case, it's more like when you can bring an assault rifle with underslung grenade launcher to cope with all kinds of situation, you elect to bring akimbo pistols because "it's meant for close quarters". Guess what? The assault rifle actually has comparable DPS with at close range.

Edit - Also, if I were you, I'd stick with my teammates with the Cicada 3M. Use the ECM to support your teammate. If you wanna be a backstabber or a brawler in your Cicada, 2A, or even a Jenner F, is a better choice for that role.

Edited by mike29tw, 23 October 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[MizarPanzer]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

So perfectly suited for fast Mechs that rely on a run & gun style of play to survive... I agree that they aren't as good as they can be, but they do have a niche within MW:O.



Ugh... Can't wait for the day that the Alpha-Warrior: Online mentality goes away...
No wonder people complain about Pulses being "too hot", when their entire strategy is to shoot every weapon on their Mech at the same time the entire match.

The problem with fast mechs is that they are usually short on tonnage AND heat.

[espritjaeger]

mike29tw, on 23 October 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

It's good that you start with your K/D ratio in your Cicada 3M because now it's easier for me to refute your point.
My Cicada 3M has never had any pulse laser on it, and it's sitting at 2.56 K/D ratio. Try 3 medium lasers and a large laser. Same weight but miles more flexible than 4 medium pulse lasers. More heat efficient too. And the best part? You can still do what you always like to do with 4 medium pulse lasers, that is running behind people and backstab them, with addition ability to poke at long range enemies.

You're right, sniper rifles are not meant for close quater combat. But in this case, it's more like when you can bring an assault rifle with underslung grenade launcher to cope with all kinds of situation, you elect to bring akimbo pistols because "it's meant for close quarters". Guess what? The assault rifle actually has comparable DPS with at close range.

You were saying that the MPL's are only better in 1 out of 5 situations, yet your KDR with regular lasers is pretty much the same as mine. How does that display that MPL's are outshined in 4 out of 5 situations compared to your setup? BTW, a my skill vs your skill argument doesn't work very well, as skill levels differ. The point of my KDR is to show that it's above 1.0, which means I am getting effective use out of MPL's.

And who the heck uses "Akimbo" pistols in real life? Grab an uzi or learn to aim with a single pistol if you are going to do that; it's incredibly inefficient to be aiming two pistols at once (I assume this is what you mean by akimbo). A more comparible example is brining a short barrel rifle, or something like a P90 or shotgun for close quarter combat versus your assault rifle with an underslung launcher. Since you include an underslung launcher, maybe I shoudl include different ammunition types for the shotgun? Flachette, AP rounds, "flash bang" rounds, Incediary rounds, etc...

Edited by espritjaeger, 23 October 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Personally I think they should just lower the cooldown. The Small pulse laser is effective because it has a lower cooldown then the small laser and the same range. So you only have the penalty of heat and weight.

I do think it would be interesting to see them as sustained fire weapons.

[Bilbo]

Tezcatli, on 23 October 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Personally I think they should just lower the cooldown. The Small pulse laser is effective because it has a lower cooldown then the small laser and the same range. So you only have the penalty of heat and weight.

I do think it would be interesting to see them as sustained fire weapons.

LPL's are too hot with their current cool down. Firing them even faster won't actually help.

[Artgathan]

espritjaeger, on 23 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

You were saying that the MPL's are only better in 1 out of 5 situations, yet your KDR with regular lasers is pretty much the same as mine. How does that display that MPL's are outshined in 4 out of 5 situations compared to your setup?

And who the heck uses "Akimbo" pistols in real life? Grab an uzi or learn to aim with a single pistol if you are going to do that; it's incredibly inefficient to be aiming two pistols at once (I assume this is what you mean by akimbo). A more comparible example is brining a short barrel rifle, or something like a P90 or shotgun for close quarter combat versus your assault rifle with an underslung launcher. Since you include an underslung launcher, maybe I shoudl include different ammunition types for the shotgun? Flachette, AP rounds, "flash bang" rounds, Incediary rounds, etc...

The point was your build would be better with regular lasers. Consider the same build as yours but packing only MLs - he'll peck you to death from 361 m while running away at the same speed.

Having to get in close as a light / medium exposes you to serious firepower (SSRMs, AC/20) and MPLs don't justify the risk with their current reward.

[espritjaeger]

Artgathan, on 23 October 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

The point was your build would be better with regular lasers. Consider the same build as yours but packing only MLs - he'll peck you to death from 361 m while running away at the same speed.

Having to get in close as a light / medium exposes you to serious firepower (SSRMs, AC/20) and MPLs don't justify the risk with their current reward.

Personally, I seem to have better luck using MPL's than ML's on this mech. It's probably due to a different playstyle. I've actually tried using ML's and more heat sinks, but I get better results with MPL's.

[Tezcatli]

Bilbo, on 23 October 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

LPL's are too hot with their current cool down. Firing them even faster won't actually help.

True. But it could make it a good burst/hit and run weapon that won't be as good for sustained fights.

[Dawnstealer]

Fut, on 23 October 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

So perfectly suited for fast Mechs that rely on a run & gun style of play to survive... I agree that they aren't as good as they can be, but they do have a niche within MW:O.



Ugh... Can't wait for the day that the Alpha-Warrior: Online mentality goes away...
No wonder people complain about Pulses being "too hot", when their entire strategy is to shoot every weapon on their Mech at the same time the entire match.

I should note this is NOT how I play - I work to make very heat efficient mechs that can do "long burns" of firing and have weapon groups dedicated to being able to shoot and still not burn out my mech.

What I was saying was that I've seen SPLs and MPLs played effectively that way. Used best, they are put on chain fire. But like others have said, I've never seen a case where pulses were more effective than their regular counterparts.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

II'd rather they shortened the pulse. You'd have even more heat over time but they would be useful "snapshot" or short burst weapons then.

[mike29tw]

espritjaeger, on 23 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

You were saying that the MPL's are only better in 1 out of 5 situations, yet your KDR with regular lasers is pretty much the same as mine. How does that display that MPL's are outshined in 4 out of 5 situations compared to your setup? BTW, a my skill vs your skill argument doesn't work very well, as skill levels differ. The point of my KDR is to show that it's above 1.0, which means I am getting effective use out of MPL's.

The only reason I tell you my K/D is to show you that I, just like you, is proficient at piloting Cicada, nothing more. After you make your point with your K/D, I feel like I have to make mine, otherwise my words won't have any weight to you.

I'm glad that you can make MPL work, however it doesn't mean that MPL is on par with regular lasers.

espritjaeger, on 23 October 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

And who the heck uses "Akimbo" pistols in real life? Grab an uzi or learn to aim with a single pistol if you are going to do that; it's incredibly inefficient to be aiming two pistols at once (I assume this is what you mean by akimbo). A more comparible example is brining a short barrel rifle, or something like a P90 or shotgun for close quarter combat versus your assault rifle with an underslung launcher. Since you include an underslung launcher, maybe I shoudl include different ammunition types for the shotgun? Flachette, AP rounds, "flash bang" rounds, Incediary rounds, etc...

The absurdity with "Akimbo" is exactly the purpose of the analogy. It looks cool, it's not practical, and there are better choices out there to fit the exact same role, just like pulse lasers.

Edited by mike29tw, 23 October 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

MPL's are made for fast mechs, anything over 100kph anyways. Reason for this is due to there short range, if your a fast mech already RANGE IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR YOU. Like a Jenner or a Cicada with MPLs are good mechs, because if you keep your speed up, it won't be an issue for you to keep in range of whatever your shooting at.

Also Pulse Lasers deal more of there damage up front rather then drawn out. Pulse Lasers deal damage in 5 pulses, vs the multiple hits you see from a normal laser. Look at a wall, fire, and then quickly turn you mech, with pulse you will see only 6 burn marks, with normals will you will see a lot. So 5 damage from a ML drawn out over several small .1 damage hits, or 6 damage over 5, 1.5 damage hits? Thats the question you must ask when deciding between ML and MPL. For Large Lasers the question is a very simple answer, use the LPL when you can afford the tonnage. It deals 10.6 damage over 5 short bursts, that weapon will kill mechs in SECONDS, as it burns through there armor. 3 LPL on my HEAVY METAL, is a tad warm, but the 31.2 damage killing power that arm brings....is a tad attractive.


LPL and PPC do share the same tonnage, and similar heat, but one is made for longer range ballistic damage. The other is aimed at brawling, up close and personal mech on mech combat (just how we like it).

[Praehotec8]

The issue is not that pulse lasers have not use. They do, people can and do use them. I love them, and use them whenever I can. My brawler Misery uses a CT LPL which it can fire alone or with its AC20 indefinitely. They just FEEL gratifying to use, and they fit better with close brawling IMO.

The issue is that their downsides largely outweigh their benefits. They're worse in almost all aspects. Shorter range, more weight, higher heat generation. I'm fine with the range, as I feel they are suited to brawling anyways, but I think they ought to either have the same weight as their "normal" counterparts, and/or ought to generate the same heat.

There simply is no reason the pulse laser should be worse in all THREE categories.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 23 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Absolutely false. The 6 Small Pulse Jenner is the single most powerful light 'mech on the field right now, with it's massive duration cut making it the first line of defense against anything fast moving.

While most pulse lasers seriously need a buff, occasionally even MPLs work on a design centered around attacking lights - like the Streaktaro, as well. But the SPL is far and away the supreme weapon of light 'mech combat right now, competitively and in pugs. The range advantage simply doesn't cut that half-second change in duration.

Maybe I missed something, but isn't the small pulse still a 0.5 second duration? Compared to the standard small laser's 0.75 second?

Did it get cut below that level?