306 replies to this topic

[xMEPHISTOx]

TostitoBandito, on 30 October 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

They are pop-tarts. The 733C is the optimal HGN chassis to do it in because you can put 2 PPC and 2 UAC5 all close together on the same side of the mech. They also usually run STD engines, so they aren't exactly what I would call mobile.

All the HGN's carry their ballistics and energy on right side...fyi. But yeah the 733C is great as it has the 2 ballistics to go w/the energy ie. 2uac5's and 2 ppcs. Now with this do you not see one of this mechs greatest faults...? Take out the right torso and its useless. All the whining about 733C or any HGN for that matter is ridiculous.

Quote

It's simple. Take away the ability to fire while jumping or airborne and these builds will become much more diverse and interesting. You could actually take a chassis which doesn't have jump jets and be competitive.

Takes a whole layer from the game if do what your suggesting. Making it less interesting imo. I am going to assume you like to brawl but cant crack the sniper dilemma. You should talk to McCloud, his group of 12's are pretty good at forcing a brawl.

[Sandpit]

and when they "fix" poptarting someone will get owned by something else and that will be the next topic that needs to be "removed" or "fixed". If you aren't out in the open a sniper can't snipe you. It's not rocket science people and really is that simple

[P e n u m b r a]

yeah punish the use of cover and reward running in the open!

[akpavker]

Kin3ticX, on 28 October 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Poptart team vs non-poptart team.



It is only 1 screenshot but I wanted to show how FPSZ mechs are amazingly superior to anything without JJs.

Its not about liking or hating poptarts, its about game balance. The matchmaker frankly does not cut it in this situation.

its no 1s fault that match maker doesnt account for JJ's. personaly ive never been in a match with more 4 jump snipers on either side....you must have bad luck om the team match up's.

[GutterBoy5]

I haven't a pop tart in a few weeks actually.

[akpavker]

TostitoBandito, on 30 October 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Pop-tarting needs to be removed from the game completely. Jump jets should be a tool for moving and gathering intel, as they were intended to be in tabletop. Accurate fire should be impossible while jetting or airborne.

Want proof of how damaging pop-tarting is? Look at the top 12-man teams. ALL of them exploit pop-tarts and JJ mechs as much as possible. Play against these teams and, apart from their lights, you will see HGN-733C's, CTF-3D's, and the occasional Victor or Shadowhawk loaded up with PPC's and ballistics hopping all over the place. This shouldn't be the only valid strategy for competitive play. Unfortanately, right now it is.

Now, PGI is releasing a module which will make it even easier to aim and acquire targets while jumping. This obviously isn't a huge deal for the top teams who don't really need any extra help, but it does lower the barrier to entry and you will see even more people running pop-tart teams. I expect it to overflow more into the PUG queue as well. Hopefully once the generally playerbase starts complaining about it, PGI might do something to address it.

remove poptarting from the game and JJ are nothing more then a wasted tone of mech space good for nothing more then jumping over a rock that your mech got caught on.....

[akpavker]

Sandpit, on 30 October 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

and when they "fix" poptarting someone will get owned by something else and that will be the next topic that needs to be "removed" or "fixed". If you aren't out in the open a sniper can't snipe you. It's not rocket science people and really is that simple

this is correct but the nubs complaining wont realise this until the game is ruined/dead. either way with all the complaing about jumpsnipers people forget that 1 spider can face off with any assult jumpsniper and come out on top most of the time!

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

xMEPHISTOx, on 30 October 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

All the HGN's carry their ballistics and energy on right side...fyi.

Except for the Heavy Metal, of course.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Le0yo, on 30 October 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

yeah punish the use of cover and reward running in the open!

You can use cover without poptarting, you know...
Most people do it. It's fun.

akpavker, on 30 October 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

remove poptarting from the game and JJ are nothing more then a wasted tone of mech space good for nothing more then jumping over a rock that your mech got caught on.....

Well that's very untrue. JJ are like free armor, they help spread damage and they also offer better vantage points and the ability to maneouver quickly even in a heavy mech. They would still be very much worth the 1-1.5 tons.

Sandpit, on 30 October 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

and when they "fix" poptarting someone will get owned by something else and that will be the next topic that needs to be "removed" or "fixed". If you aren't out in the open a sniper can't snipe you. It's not rocket science people and really is that simple

It is in human nature to complain, but this is not so much about n00bs complaining as it is important form a design perspective. Poptarting has no counter-strategy. And doesn't really add any depth to the game, it just forces people who want to win to play a mech with JJs. Because in a mech with no JJs you are at a big disadvantage compared to one that has them.

Having a dominant tactic with no counter than itself isn't really good for a competitive game. In PUGs they are rarely a problem these days, but they still remain OP. I personally can't think of a reason why that should be so. Why people MUST be able to use jump-sniping, especially since it brings so little to the game as a whole.

P.S. It's not like I'm hating. I've used the tactic and it is fun. It's just that when you consider the game as a whole, it kinda makes it stale for one tactic to be the all-and-all for almost a year.

(Watch the launch tournament and tell me what part did you find exciting, and you'll see what I mean)

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 31 October 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[FunkMasterTaco]

JJ are fine. Deal with it.

The real problem is that PGI needs to fix srm hit registration and possibly up the damage as well.

Edited by FunkMasterTaco, 31 October 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[Ngamok]

Asyres, on 30 October 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

The ability to transverse terrain and jump-turn would STILL make jump jets preferable -- and disabling firing in the air would significantly hamper lights... which hardly need nerfing at the moment.

Lights don't need the ability to fire in the air to make them viable.

[Joseph Mallan]

Asyres, on 30 October 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

The ability to transverse terrain and jump-turn would STILL make jump jets preferable -- and disabling firing in the air would significantly hamper lights... which hardly need nerfing at the moment.

Your first statement is true, the second is not.

[Kunae]

Ngamok, on 31 October 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Lights don't need the ability to fire in the air to make them viable.

Yes, they do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kunae, on 31 October 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Yes, they do.

How long did we not use Pop Tart tactics in Closed Beta. You know, back when you only needed one JJ to get your full jump? No a Light does not need to jump to be dangerous.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 October 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

How long did we not use Pop Tart tactics in Closed Beta. You know, back when you only needed one JJ to get your full jump? No a Light does not need to jump to be dangerous.

Lights aren't pop-tarting, unless they're stupid.

Using JJ's, in combat, does not necessitate being a pop-tart, in any weight-class.

[GreyZ7]

People who don't think poptarting and jumpjets are ridiculously powerful have not played 12 mans or at least not against competitive teams. Highlanders reign supreme there.

Easiest fix would simply be to disable the strong pinpoint weapons while jumpjetting. PPCs, AC20, AC10 (and AC5s to a degree) are the biggest problem due to poptarting.
Just disabling those few weapons would sufficiently nerf the poptart meta, without harming lights much, easy and clean fix.

Edited by kai hohiro, 31 October 2013 - 07:00 AM.

[Kunae]

Oh, and the following is not a threat, just a statement.

If PGI ever decides to remove the ability for lights to shoot while jump-jetting, I am done with this game. No "if's", "and's", or "but's", about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kunae, on 31 October 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Lights aren't pop-tarting, unless they're stupid.

Using JJ's, in combat, does not necessitate being a pop-tart, in any weight-class.

Agreed JJ are for giving a Mech more mobility. This in no way means the ability to fire while trying to fly a building!

Kunae, on 31 October 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

Oh, and the following is not a threat, just a statement.

If PGI ever decides to remove the ability for lights to shoot while jump-jetting, I am done with this game. No "if's", "and's", or "but's", about it.

Understand as a grown up, I do not consider that a threat but a statement of fact. That being said, I accept your declaration, and will sorely miss you if it comes to pass. I will also respect you less, if you do not hold to your word.

[Kunae]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 October 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Understand as a grown up, I do not consider that a threat but a statement of fact. That being said, I accept your declaration, and will sorely miss you if it comes to pass. I will also respect you less, if you do not hold to your word.

As I said, with no equivocation. It's a game-breaker, for me.

[Tastian]

Vodrin Thales, on 30 October 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

If jump sniping were the real OP thing, the Jaguars would run 733C's with Cataphract 3D's in there mid tonnage drop decks, but what you see are Highlanders with Illya's. It's the weapons that determine the power of the setup, not jump jets.

Based on your remark, I looked up the Jaguars. Watch this vid: They explain that they use the 733C and Illyas because at the time of this video, UAC5s were still OP. But they also state that the Illyas could be much better if they had jump jets.

And, yes, your statement that the weapons make the power of the setup is true, but even a great weapn setup without jump jets is not as good as a great weapon setup WITH jump jets. So, with so many choices, why on earth take a non jump jet mech?

Highlanders and Cataphract 3Ds are used because of 1) jump jets and 2) high pinpoint alpha ability.

But let's not yell at 12 man groups. They adapt quickly to the FotM. If PGI removed jump jets altogether, they'd grab the next FotM OP setup and go with it and then the forums would erupt with finger pointing.