44 replies to this topic

[Oni Ralas]

LRM5's are also warming up faster than previous. Noticable difference in both total heat time, and CD once >80%

[Deathlike]

Oh chain fire...

It's better to have a better point of reference instead of "feeling" it is hotter than usual.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 October 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Asmosis]

FrDrake, on 30 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

You can't use chain fire as the deciding mechanism because for the whole 1/2 second you are waiting on chain fire to process the next laser the first one is cooling down.

None of the tests I've seen presented in this thread make sense to test the thing you are claiming.

of course they do.

one laser generates 6% heat
two lasers *Should* generate 12% heat in group fire but are generating 19% (for the guy you quoted).

[Shlkt]

I could duplicate this issue in the testing grounds w/ ER LL. Haven't tried it out in a "real" match yet.
EDIT: Nevermind, I'm not seeing a problem even in the testing grounds. My math was a little off is all. I don't see any evidence of ghost heat occurring with 2x LL.

Edited by Shlkt, 31 October 2013 - 05:06 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

testing grounds values mean nothing.

[warp103]

in my case i am was in river city normal assault match. in the tunnel. prior to patch i could fire 12 times {chain fire before shut down}. Same location after patch it is now 10. It is that simple. nothing else chged. my stalker still the same,I just shuts down 2 shots earlier. the cause I do not know nor do I care. I just know the results. I can not say it a cooling issue or if they are hotter. I just would like to report it so other will know.


edit Talking normal Lager lasers.

Edited by warp103, 30 October 2013 - 07:24 PM.

[Krivvan]

Well so far the only staff response is that it doesn't seem to happen, so some video evidence would be nice.

[Tesunie]

I've been noticing that my Thunderbolt has been heating up a lot faster as well. I have 3 med lasers and a large pulse laser on it. I get three alphas in River City and I shut down. I use to get three alphas on Therra Therma and still be up and moving. All live combat testing and Training grounds.

I have no other way of telling, as I have no video evidence of the change, nor can I remember exact numbers from before the patch (nor prove those numbers). All I know is my Thunderbolt use to be a fairly cool running mech, and not it's shutting down all the time.

PGI might need to look into this as a whole.

[Asmosis]

Krivvan, on 30 October 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Well so far the only staff response is that it doesn't seem to happen, so some video evidence would be nice.

I might have missed it, but is there another topic on this?

Also if your seeing small increases across different weapons, that might not be the weapons. That might be an issue with heat sinks for either capacity or cooling rate.

I'll post LL in a bit if you want video proof, but its pretty simple to just put 2 LL's on a mech and try it yourself. I could guarantee you have at least one mech that could do it.

Edited by Asmosis, 31 October 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[Asmosis]

Asmosis, on 30 October 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

*edit*
oh goodie terra for LL test lols. results in a min.

ok yup broken.
1 LL -> 4% heat increase
2 LL -> 13% heat increase
3LL -> 27% heat increase
4LL -> 46% heat increase

chainfire is steady heat increase but looks like max alpha reduced to 1 for LL's.

UAC5's are fine

video for the disbelievers. http://youtu.be/VxX2e8-3kWM

*edit*

when I said "chainfire is steady heat increase" earlier I *meant* that chainfire was functioning properly, nothing fishy there.

Edited by Asmosis, 31 October 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Banditman]

Seems fairly straight forward. Here's the math, using the video example:


1 LL generates 7 heat, which translates to about 4% increase to the mech / pilot combo. Due to the map, that means the mech goes from 6% heat to 10% heat.

2 LL generate 14 heat, which should translate to about 8% increase. Due to the map, we should expect this to mean the mech goes from 6% heat to approximately 14-15% heat. Instead, it goes to 19% heat. This suggests that the mech took a heat increase of perhaps 20-21 heat.

It's pretty clear that it's "too much", regardless of whether "heat scale" or some other mechanic is in play. However, let's look at heat scale more closely. If we assume that the Command Chair post explaining Heat Scale math is still accurate, we can compute what the heat penalty should be for two LLasers.

Heat Penalty = (Base Heat x (Heat Scale x multiplier))

We know the base heat of a LL is 7. In this case, we know two weapons have been fired, which makes the heat scale .08. We use the table to look up the multiplier, which it turns out is 2.8.

Heat Penalty = (7 x (.08 x 2.8)) = (7 x .224) = 1.568

So, even if max alpha for a LLaser were incorrectly set to 1, meaning 2 of them incurred a penalty, we would expect that two LLasers would generate 7 + 7 + 1.6 = 15.6 heat. Tracking back to the example above, we'd reasonably expect somewhere around 16% heat to show up.

Honestly, we probably wouldn't even notice that particular problem. The fact that we notice this problem with only two weapons being fired means that something has gotten seriously sideways deep in the formula.

There is a problem.

[Nik Reaper]

I think this still needs more data, but why in the heck would you not do it on a relatively heat neutral map like river city instead of going to mordor for the test ?

[Shlkt]

Quote

ok yup broken.
1 LL -> 4% heat increase
2 LL -> 13% heat increase

Initially I made the same mistake that you did in assuming than 2x LL ought to generate double the heat increase, but that's actually not the case. Even without ghost heat you should expect your heat gauge to rise more than double the amount when firing 2x LL vs. 1x LL.

Let's assume you've got 20 double heat sinks and all the pilot skills unlocked. That'll give you a heat capacity of 76.80, and a heat dissipation rate of 3.91 heat/sec.

A large laser has a beam duration of 1 second, so at the end of the beam you will have generated 7 heat but also dissipated 3.91 heat.

(7 - 3.91) / 76.80 = 4.0% heat increase

If you fire two lasers simultaneously you will have generated 14 heat but still dissipated 3.91 heat in the same time period:

(14 - 3.91) / 76.80 = 13.1% heat increase

Therefore you can see that your observed numbers agree precisely with the expected behavior without ghost heat.

[Ramla]

Shlkt, on 31 October 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Therefore you can see that your observed numbers agree precisely with the expected behavior without ghost heat.

Exactly.

Ramla, on 30 October 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Chainfire 4LL -> heat meter peaks at 35%, and at about 10 seconds from firing the first one heat is back to idle 7%.
Fire 2+2 LL with 0.5s in between -> heat meter peaks at 43%, 10 sec from firing the first pair heat is back to idle 7%.

To make this even clearer for the disbelievers, actual ghost heat can be introduced by firing the lasers in 3+1 pattern. There it takes 12 seconds for all the heat to dissipate back to idle. Firing 4 at once it takes 13 seconds to get rid of all the heat generated.

[Onlystolen]

Asmosis, on 31 October 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

video for the disbelievers. http://youtu.be/VxX2e8-3kWM

*edit*

when I said "chainfire is steady heat increase" earlier I *meant* that chainfire was functioning properly, nothing fishy there.

Yup. That's video evidence to the claim, what should only be 8% is now at 14%

Now does anyone want to make a video of 2 ac/2's counter fired to show them that particular problem?

[ArmageddonKnight]

The Ac2 issue has been video'd over and over and over again. There are bunch on the AC2 heat sticky thread.

PGI consider it "working as intended" . They got but*hurt from dakka mechs when they played the game so they nerfed them bassicaly.
http://mwomercs.com/...an-explanation/

Edited by ArmageddonKnight, 31 October 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Banditman]

Beam duration could explain it, assuming the HS, skills, etc are accurate.

[Asmosis]

for some reason I got it in my head you don't get cooling during beam duration, but that was recycle time not HS. Thanks Shlkt.

As for testing maps, doesn't the map only affect where your min heat threshold sits rather than cooling rate? Caustic crater for example simply adds a flat +10% or so to the bottom line.

[Nik Reaper]

As far as I read, the maps much like the engine when moving are supposed to to keep a number of heatsinks occupied both as capacity and as cooling, if someone has solid knowledge otherwise do correct me .

[Justin Leroux]

It's nothing i have measured or detailed data on, but my Victor with 1 AC/10, 1 PPC and 2 SRM4 overheats now pretty quickly, where he was nearly heat neutral (given the different ranges you use a PPC and SRM for) with 13 DHS. I mean, how little weaponry can i load on an Assault, when even only 4 weapons, and 3 of them produce only 3 heat, overheat it. Before the patch it was different, clearly different, but sadly i have no numbers.

Another newly experienced problem with my Victor is, that it gets stuck a lot more, stopping and hanging on every little stone lying around and slowing down on even the slightest slope.