215 replies to this topic

[NRP]

Compete how? In an overheat-a-thon?

The Jester runs hot enough as it is.

Edited by NRP, 08 November 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[NRP]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

[color=cyan]Actually, yes, here is an explanation: The C1 has 4 energy, 2 Missile hardpoints. The C4 has 4 missile, 2 energy hardpoints. The A1 has 6 Missile hardpoilnts. So you'd get either 3E/3M, or 5M/1E, or 5E/1M. Those are so close to what we already have. I went with all Energy (another dev who plays Catas actually suggested the idea) and basically combined the C1 and the K2, gave it jumpjets, then went with a large max engine. It makes it flexible, and most importantly - different. I did NOT want to make just an existing loadout with shifted hardpoints.[/color]

Let's say I went 3E/3M - how different would that REALLY be from the C1, or C4? The Jester is kinda like a C1, with no missiles, but also like a K2 with no ballistics, but JJ's, etc.

In the end it's a layout that didn't already exist, is fun, and unique

Hey Garth,
Thanks for taking the time to explain the thought process behind the Jester's hard point configuration. It's great to get the Dev's insight into such things.

Can you perhaps get designer of the Pretty Baby to explain the thought process behind that particular hero's design?

[Alaskan Nobody]

NRP, on 08 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Can you perhaps get designer of the Pretty Baby to explain the thought process behind that particular hero's design?

You have to admit..... it is unique

[Mr Andersson]

As energy weapons are clearly inferior to autocannons in the current state of the game I see no point in getting this one.

[Namerof]

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 05 November 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

I swear I'm not "that guy" who complains every patch, but I wanted soooooo bad to buy this mech, in fact I'd already prepped my wife for the mysterious charges that would appear. But why would I pay $30 to get destroyed by jaggers and catafracts all day long? I mean YOU CAN'T MOUNT 3 LARGE LASERS WITHOUT PENALTY. God forbid 3 PPC's. So go ahead, stick 30 energy hard points on it. It will be amusing to the guy with 2 ac5's that cores you.

I am dissapoint

You know you don't have to fire them all at once, and infact get more sustained DPS as a result, right?

[GrandLocomon]

I really like my jester, don't regret buying it at all. But it would have been way cooler if it had 2 E slots per arm (subtract side torso ones), without making it OP... although I guess that may make it the poptarts choice of mech... curse you poptarts! lol. I bet they would have given it 2 an arm then.

Oh and its super cool camo spec is totally OP, pls nerf...






































...I was kidding! Please NEVER nerf the camo spec I love it ... although the eyes on the back creeped me out at first

Edited by GrandLocomon, 09 November 2013 - 01:57 AM.

[Filter41]

i did not found a word in that thread about the "new" center torso of the catapult. Did they updated the hitboxes together with the new "detailed weapon design"???

Since the jester apeared my C1 seems to be just a center torso! It is impossible to lose the side torsi and even the "ears" seems "protected" by ct. Whenever i got a hit from more than 500m away: it hits the center!!!

anyone else with that experience?

[Praehotec8]

Garth Erlam, on 07 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

[color=cyan]I had actually considered the 2/2/2 until I realsed: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=66 You trade 2 missile HP's for jumpjets and a bigger engine.[/color]

I also completely disagree that 6 energy hardpoints is limited. Builds I made:

2x LL 4x ML
2x ERLL 4x ML
4x LL
4x ERLL
2x PPC 4x ML
2x ERPPC 4x ML
6x ML
6x MPL (it's a riot, try it out )
1x ERPPC 2x ERLL (This was bizarrely effective)
2x LPL 2x ML

And so on. There's a LOT you can do with it, especially with the extra AMS

Thanks for the insight. I'm actually using the 6 MPL build now, and it's my favorite so far. I still think there should have been missiles in a cat. hero though. Why not 4B/2M (say 1 M, 1 B in each arm, and 2B in the side torsos or something)?

Even better, it could have had a turret mounted ballistic below CT, to shoot off those pesky lights...

Edited by Praehotec8, 09 November 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[Smitti]

zudukai, on 06 November 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Forgive my ignorance.... What is the skin on that Cat a and how can I get it? Looks purrty...


And how the heck do people crank out such nice screen caps? Makes my max-settings-on-a-780 look like a mud painting...

[Barantor]

Kaeseblock, on 07 November 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

Yes.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/wyc7c

Loadout:

• 2x ER-LL
  
• 4x ML
  
• XL355
  
• 2x JJ
  
• 2x AMS (1 ton of ammo) / 2 DHS (not sure anymore)
  
• many DHS

Usually get 300-500 DMG each match. Sometimes more, sometimes less.






^ this

Best build for it IMO. Does everything a dragon is supposed to do as far as flanking and such, but has JJs and lasers that tend to surprise your foes.

Nothing like finding a Jaegerbomb (2xac/20) focusing on someone else and sticking an alpha under it's arm to take out an xl....

I've been thinking about trying to put a TAG in there somehow, but I'm not sure if I want to lose some dps.

Edited by Barantor, 09 November 2013 - 06:45 AM.

[Dauphni]

Smittiferous, on 09 November 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

Forgive my ignorance.... What is the skin on that Cat a and how can I get it? Looks purrty...

That would be the PC Gamer promo skin. You can get it here http://mwomercs.com/pcgamer It's only available on the older Mechs, though.

[Roger Wildcat]

Uite Dauphni, on 09 November 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

That would be the PC Gamer promo skin. You can get it here http://mwomercs.com/pcgamer It's only available on the older Mechs, though.

Are they still doing that promotion? I thought it had already ended.

[Dauphni]

It may have, I'm not sure, actually.

[BLUPRNT]

Filter41, on 09 November 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

i did not found a word in that thread about the "new" center torso of the catapult. Did they updated the hitboxes together with the new "detailed weapon design"???

Since the jester apeared my C1 seems to be just a center torso! It is impossible to lose the side torsi and even the "ears" seems "protected" by ct. Whenever i got a hit from more than 500m away: it hits the center!!!

anyone else with that experience?

YEEEEESSSSS!!!! About a month and a half ago all the Catapults seemed to have turned into large CT's. They remind me a lot of the Kintaro when they were first introduced only . I have heard many others say the same. The Jester seems to suffer the same fate. Please PGI, look into this.

[Victor Morson]

Garth Erlam, on 07 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

[color=cyan]I had actually considered the 2/2/2 until I realsed: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=66 You trade 2 missile HP's for jumpjets and a bigger engine.[/color]

I also completely disagree that 6 energy hardpoints is limited. Builds I made:

2x LL 4x ML
2x ERLL 4x ML
4x LL
4x ERLL
2x PPC 4x ML
2x ERPPC 4x ML
6x ML
6x MPL (it's a riot, try it out )
1x ERPPC 2x ERLL (This was bizarrely effective)
2x LPL 2x ML

And so on. There's a LOT you can do with it, especially with the extra AMS

The unfortunate truth is you are really really bad at designing 'mechs Garth. This isn't an insult, as I know that's not your job (or maybe it is if you'll be testing variants usability!), but there's literally not one thing on that list worth running. The one that was "bizarrely effective" was so against your testers, in your offices, when even newbies will roll that over in the "real game."

Garth, I realized you designed this hard point setup now. I also realize you're the guy who didn't know when the Ghost Heat limitations kicked in and how, and don't really play the game much. That's why I need to regretfully inform you that every single configuration you just listed is terrible, by any standards, casual or competitive.

In fact two of the configurations you listed would require a macro to run to avoid massively overheating yourself to shutdown or death.

Thus I respectfully request that you know, you consider contacting competitive groups and getting actual feedback on hardpoints, rather than just assigning what comes to mind from a cosmetic standpoint.

For example, if you had made the Jester a hybrid of the K2, which it already physically resembles, do you know what kind of setups you could have had for this 'mech?

1x Ballistic, 5x Energy for example would have brought the Jester to be a top tier 'mech that lots of people would want. Being able to bring an AC/20 into the mix with the energy weapons would be wonderful. Likewise, we have very few ballistic-missile 'mechs - how about a ballistic and four missile slots?

Even rolling with the Jester theme, how about one arm ballistic, one arm missile, asymmetrical style?

How about doing a Catapult with double armor on the arms as it's main advantage, since that's long considered the biggest weakness, with less hard points to compensate?

You had other ways to go with this. Other ways that would have produced a quality 'mech that anyone experienced at the game isn't calling terrible. If you talked to these people before you produced this 'mech you would have made a lot more money on it guaranteed. It really feels as if the hardpoints were designed only trying to balance those numbers, and not looking at what would actually be useful.

I'm unsure if you had anything to do with the Golden Boy, but designing a 'mech that is in every single way inferior to a cbill variant is another example of the feeling I get from the heroes that there's not enough understanding put into what makes them good/bad. There is a reason the Ilya remains one of the most popular. Do you realize that the Heavy Metal's popularity comes from it's split weapon slots and thus durability, for example? Or did you believe it was the music?

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 November 2013 - 10:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

Victor Morson, on 09 November 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

The unfortunate truth is you are really really bad at designing 'mechs Garth. This isn't an insult, as I know that's not your job (or maybe it is if you'll be testing variants usability!), but there's literally not one thing on that list worth running. The one that was "bizarrely effective" was so against your testers, in your offices, when even newbies will roll that over in the "real game."

Garth, I realized you designed this hard point setup now. I also realize you're the guy who didn't know when the Ghost Heat limitations kicked in and how, and don't really play the game much. That's why I need to regretfully inform you that every single configuration you just listed is terrible, by any standards, casual or competitive.

In fact two of the configurations you listed would require a macro to run to avoid massively overheating yourself to shutdown or death.

Thus I respectfully request that you know, you consider contacting competitive groups and getting actual feedback on hardpoints, rather than just assigning what comes to mind from a cosmetic standpoint.

For example, if you had made the Jester a hybrid of the K2, which it already physically resembles, do you know what kind of setups you could have had for this 'mech?

1x Ballistic, 5x Energy for example would have brought the Jester to be a top tier 'mech that lots of people would want. Being able to bring an AC/20 into the mix with the energy weapons would be wonderful. Likewise, we have very few ballistic-missile 'mechs - how about a ballistic and four missile slots?

You had other ways to go with this. Other ways that would have produced a quality 'mech that anyone experienced at the game isn't calling terrible. If you talked to these people before you produced this 'mech you would have made a lot more money on it guaranteed. It really feels as if the hardpoints were designed only trying to balance those numbers, and not looking at what would actually be useful.

I'm unsure if you had anything to do with the Golden Boy, but designing a 'mech that is in every single way inferior to a cbill variant is another example of the feeling I get from the heroes that there's not enough understanding put into what makes them good/bad. There is a reason the Ilya remains one of the most popular. Do you realize that the Heavy Metal's popularity comes from it's split weapon slots and thus durability, for example? Or did you believe it was the music?

You couldn't have done a TL;DR and said "the Quickdraw-5K is better"? The truth of the matter is that is the case.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 November 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Deathlike, on 09 November 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

You couldn't have done a TL;DR and said "the Quickdraw-5K is better"? The truth of the matter is that is the case.

Touche.

But really I was thinking "Most of the designs on Garth's list are literally one energy slot short of what you can fit on a Trebuchet, and even that would be far better than the Jester" so I didn't even think that way.

It's clear that he put together a bunch of on paper designs of "things that could be put on it physically" without even the slightest understanding if they would be good/bad, or why they would be good/bad.

It's this poor understanding and unwillingness to reach out to the community for feedback that leads to both the worst and best 'mechs in the game, without a firm understanding why from the devs POV - leading to infamous statements like "The Atlas is the top tier assault."

I bet if you asked Garth why a Victor is superior to an Awesome in every single way, he wouldn't actually have the answers aside from maybe referencing the jump jets and would probably try to say it's not inferior.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 November 2013 - 10:42 PM.

[Deathlike]

Victor Morson, on 09 November 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Touche.

But really I was thinking "Most of the designs on Garth's list are literally one energy slot short of what you can fit on a Trebuchet, and even that would be far better than the Jester" so I didn't even think that way.

I've had success with the Trebuchet-5J, but by god it's a vastly inferior jumping energy platform. I'd rather do energy boating on a BJ-3. The arms get ripped off a bucket so easily.

Quote

It's clear that he put together a bunch of on paper designs of "things that could be put on it physically" without even the slightest understanding if they would be good/bad, or why they would be good/bad.

The thing about paper designs is that you have to see it for yourself. I'd say half of that list I've tried and seen them commonly.. the other half is terribad trash that should never have been considered. For instance... is the Catapult a chassis where you'd run a common Jenner config of 6ML? Any reference to Pulse Lasers are bad, and Garth should feel bad for suggesting such trash.

Quote

It's this poor understanding and unwillingness to reach out to the community for feedback that leads to both the worst and best 'mechs in the game, without a firm understanding why from the devs POV - leading to infamous statements like "The Atlas is the top tier assault."

That is an understatement. I'm willing to believe that most devs have not played all the new mechs to fully understand the shortcomings of many of them. But hey, we have the Lolcust right?

Quote

I bet if you asked Garth why a Victor is superior to an Awesome in every single way, he wouldn't actually have the answers aside from maybe referencing the jump jets and would probably try to say it's not inferior.

Yes, I'm sure Garth has spent time mastering an Awesome (like actually grinding out the 57+k XP for mastery)... if this was bizzaro world.

[Victor Morson]

Deathlike, on 09 November 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

I've had success with the Trebuchet-5J, but by god it's a vastly inferior jumping energy platform. I'd rather do energy boating on a BJ-3. The arms get ripped off a bucket so easily.

I don't like it all that much, but I'd still take it over a Jester for a similar thing. Smaller and the arm weakness matches the Jester. Though to be honest I'd take neither seriously.

Deathlike, on 09 November 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

The thing about paper designs is that you have to see it for yourself. I'd say half of that list I've tried and seen them commonly.. the other half is terribad trash that should never have been considered. For instance... is the Catapult a chassis where you'd run a common Jenner config of 6ML? Any reference to Pulse Lasers are bad, and Garth should feel bad for suggesting such trash.

I'd say the very best of the ones on the list are bad, but some are REALLY bad. The funniest thing is half the "kind of usable" ones you can fit on a regular catapult.

Deathlike, on 09 November 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

That is an understatement. I'm willing to believe that most devs have not played all the new mechs to fully understand the shortcomings of many of them. But hey, we have the Lolcust right?

Sadly if the community manager was communicating with the community on this instead of talking about all the nifty configs he did on Smurfy's, we would have told him that it was trash and maybe avoided it.

Deathlike, on 09 November 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Yes, I'm sure Garth has spent time mastering an Awesome (like actually grinding out the 57+k XP for mastery)... if this was bizzaro world.

Well I figure he can set the stats anyway he likes, but again, as being the community manager he shouldn't need to personally run the Awesome to be aware of the problems with the Awesome.

In fact if there was community communication I don't think the Jester would have gotten the slots it did in the first place.

EDIT: Despite all my griping, again, the Golden Boy runs the same weapons load out more or less as the cbill versions.... at drastically slower speeds. So that really is the worst hero.

This means the difference between the Jester making PGI several thousand dollars, and ten times that number, so I will never understand it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 November 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

All I see here is Crys about energy weapons not on a boating assault won't let me alpha enough and I can't put an ac20 or millions of missiles on it, QQ this hero won't fit my unimaginative max out the alpha damage play style...

people its a catapult that has six energy hard points with heavy armor and goes up to 90kph, sure it has the same ct/head problems as every other catapult but it has speed if you don't play it like a face humping brawler and use your speed to pick your targets and there won't be a problem.