284 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Sug, on 08 November 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Civilian reproduction does not involve the repositories.

No, but the Clan identity was in their Warrior's genetic legacies, so destroying a repository would mean the death of that Clan, regardless of if its civilians were still around. And, as I said, I haven't read that specific part of the War for a while so I was a bit off on how CSJ was actually eliminated. I admit I was wrong about that.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 08 November 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

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1.Well since Victor did abdicate the murder was still partially his fault, cause he didn't foresee that his sister (who killed his mom) was going to be like that. If he hadn't abdicated none of that would have happened unless like I said he would take power and abuse it like a power hungry person. Therefore no matter how you look at it he would be a killer.

Not sure if you are being a troll or just highly confused. Victor cannot be held responsible for his sister's actions especially since he did not expect her to kill her own mother. Come on that is just stupid. The only way you could look at it & think he is a killer is if you are insane.

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2. I also think that a Trial of Annihilation is wrong. No innocent people should suffer for a short fews' wrong doings.

No innocent people suffered. They destroyed the warrior caste of the Jaguars thereby robbing them of the ability to continue to make war. This was not a Clan Trial of Annihilation where everyone gets killed. They only killed the warriors.

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When annihilation comes to a be the only logical option it still doesn't make it right.

From the IS perspective actually it is right. They fought the warriors & spared the civilians which is what the Clans are always talking about anyway.

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Also the Star League and Victor were murderers because the Tukayyid Truce was in affect. They broke a treaty both sides had agreed to uphold.

No they did not. The Treaty stipulated that if the Clans lost at Tukayyid, THEY could advance no further for 15 years. They would hold onto the worlds they won so far & could conduct raids, but they could not grab any new territory past the line. The IS forces were under no such restrictions & since the OZ was comprised of worlds the Jaguars took from the IS, it is only logical the IS would try to retake their worlds. Attacking Huntress was not a violation of the Truce or else the invasion would have resumed. Are you really this dense?

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Therefore it was murder to kill men and women who had (not yet) committed any crimes against you. Killing to show power is murder, Killing to survive is not.

Crimes were already committed. The Jags had invaded & killed people. They did kill to survive. They made sure that by the time the 15 years was up, there was one less threat to worry about. Less enemies to fight increases your chances of survival.

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No other Clan would have helped the Jags also and therefore the only enemy there was were the Jags.

They did not have a choice in the matter. The Ghost Bears had shifted to the Warden view, the Nova Cats were in the process of defecting to the IS via the DC, the Wolves & Jade Falcons were in shambles after the Refusal War & would be seen as weak targets, so the only choice was the Jags. The decision was taken out of their hands by events they had no control over.




Twilight of the Clans Pg.8

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The Inner Sphere at the time had no real reason to break the treaty and kill them (yet). It was murder because no offense or killing had been brought to them after Tukayyid and the truce was there. Lincoln Osis was planning an assault but planning is not a crime except where dictation and no freedom rules.

Again they did not break the Truce & the lore confirms this. No planning is not a crime but would you sit there & do nothing when an enemy is making preparations to bring war to you? A war that would kill, wound & cripple many of your people, damage infrastructure & shatter families? It is called a preemptive strike & again this is not against someone who is just planning & has not done anything at all, they were engaged in combat before.

To my earlier posts regarding the repositories & how they were NOT destroyed:

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"The place might as well have been unguarded," Lieutenant Ronald Boice reported. "We hit the guards and rolled right over them. Didn't take too many casualties. Detailed butcher's bill to follow. Lousy Elementals. My guys want to move in and trash the place. What are your orders?"

"Negative!" Barclay fairly shouted over the commline. "Do not, I repeat, do not destroy the repository. The Clanners are kind of touchy as far as their gene pools are concerned. We start destroying the repository, and every Jaguar Kerensky ever spawned will be down on us, looking for vengeance.

"Just secure the facility, dig in, and prepare to hold your ground. I don't think the Jags are done with us, not by a long chalk."

Sword & Fire

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"If I'm right, and we've sanitized and removed the brutal traces of the war, they might trick themselves into thinking it was an aberration." Victor pointed off toward the north. "We have that whole repository of their warriors' genetic material there just waiting to be exploited."

"We can't destroy it."

"I know, and I agree, we can't destroy it without infuriating the rest of the Clans and giving them a new excuse to go to war with us. We'll leave it there and, for some of these people, it will be a holy grail through which their hurts can be soothed."

Prince of Havoc

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 08 November 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Uh no. I mentioned the terms of the Truce. The Clans could not advance, but they could raid which still meant combat which meant people getting hurt. What part of that are you not grasping?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 08 November 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Those Civilians did suffer. They lost any chance of carrying on the traditions of their ancestors. What would you do if your entire way of life was to die out? My guess be depressed, on the edge of suicide, especially considering you'd never have a person to carry on your legacy.

They were suffering since the day they were forced to live under Jag rull. Did you forget that part?

[arkanis]

Lukoi, on 05 November 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

That being said, the Precentor's strategy avoided much of the issue of experience by not trying to defeat the Clans in tactical set pieces but to use their aggressive quick striking culture to grind them down in a war of logistical attrition.

So instead of fighting, Focht was basically playing capwarrior

Edited by arkanis, 08 November 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

No. And I said I never did justify the Jags. But I.S. only helped prolong it. So there was no good deed done by anyone there.

I'm sorry for my mistakes. I have never been allowed the BT novels as I am 16 and my parents don't allow the books around. I have only learned this much from the video games and what I've read on Sarna and not gotten all the information as I do not have all the access. But I still stand by my views that there is no side that is good and that Victor was just as bad as many of his ancestors and the Clanners. You cannot justify killing completely but it is okay to defend, but not to strike unless absolutely necessary. Clans were wrong to invade. The I.S. was wrong to have a war to control each other for 200 some odd years. The I.S. was wrong (IMO at the time) to invade but I do say it would have eventually been necessary but not at the time until they had actually done something after the Truce. There was no correct side in the matter. The Clans were wrong the I.S. was wrong, everyone was wrong in Lore about something and war is always wrong no matter how you wage it. The destruction of the Jags was the Lesser of 2 evils (the other being let the Truce end and then have another full scale war) but it was not right.

When "Lesser Evils" are all you have, you make them happen as much as you can.

[Uncle Totty]

arkanis, on 08 November 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

So instead of fighting, Focht was basically playing capwarrior

Funny, I do not remember it being just a bunch of base swaping.

[Capp]

I hope I'm not intruding on a private conversation but I'd like to try to clarify some things if I can:

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

No need to insult me. I can have my own views can't I. Victor was obviously dense giving his thrown to his sister (he grew up with her so he probably knew at least some to the point that she was a power hungry raving maniac). Victor was either dense or ignorant. So no matter what it is his fault anything happened at all. He abdicated and therefore murders happened. They could have been stopped if he hadn't abdicated and the hole war would have been avoided saving millions.

Victor was raised on Tharkad while Katherine seems to have spent the majority of her early years on New Avalon (she attended the NAIS.) She did spend time on Tharkad but saying they grew up together is iffy at best. Also Katherine seems the type that would hide her ambitions and Victor is the the type that would find it hard to randomly imagine that one of his own siblings would someday decide to kill their own mother. Add to that that at, say,10 years old, someone might not yet develop their future murderous side.

Hindsight is 20/20. Victor did not get to read the plot before he lived it.

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

A TRUCE is a TRUCE. No one invades in a TRUCE. No one takes territory in a TRUCE.

Calling it a truce, a treaty (which it is also called,) or a kiwifruit does not rewrite the actual stipulations contained within the document. The terms were the terms. In a "true truce" the Clans would not be allowed to raid or even fire a shot, but that also was not part of the terms.

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

And just because something was good to a person's point of view doesn't always make it right. Those Civilians did suffer. They lost any chance of carrying on the traditions of their ancestors. What would you do if your entire way of life was to die out? My guess be depressed, on the edge of suicide, especially considering you'd never have a person to carry on your legacy.

Leaving aside for the moment that their ancient history of their ancestors goes back only about 250 years, it's pretty much the same thing that would happen if any of them were taken as Isorla by another Clan. They would adopt the new way of life and carry on proudly. I'm somewhat sure that occasionally happens to civilians. It's their way.

And if by "another person to carry on your legacy" you mean children, then remember that aside from Trueborns that washed out of warrior training, the rest of the civilian population are Freeborns. Freeborn, of course, reproduce in the vulgar, barbarian way, therefore they have no such limitation on birthing children. Trueborn civilians lost their chance for a legacy the moment they washed out of warrior training (unless they resort to the inferior method of reproduction a la Aiden Pryde.)

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Also you said yourself they killed ALL of the warriors. That means cadets, trainees, anyone in the military. That mean's people who never harmed you were killed (by definition that is murder).

Actually, a fair number of warriors were taken as bondsmen or isorla and did live, although by that act they ceased being Smoke Jaguar. (One even ended up in the Solaris games, in one novel.)

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

A truce is when multiple people (or factions) agree to not do any major violations against each other. You cannot change what a Truce is no matter how it is said. If you invade there is no Truce. But since the other Clans were honor bound not to assault (and weren't about to break their codes in any way and not risk it as Honor is everything) Strana Mechty was not necessary.

Perhaps the word "truce" had evolved in the 1000 years between now and then. Perhaps the reason it was also called the Treaty of Tukayyid is because the writers realized the name they originally used to keep the reference as simple as possible would be misinterpreted as the literal meaning. Or maybe someone just got lazy when they named it. Still, a look at even the real life politics of today will reveal that the name given to a bill or treaty does not always represent it's contents accurately, and and that name means absolutely zero if the contents say something different.

As for Strana Mechty, the Treaty of Tukayyid was only for 15 years. The Trial of Refusal did have to happen, it was only a question of timing. (The other option was all out warfare until either the Clans or the IS were ground to dust.)

The Clans' goal in life was to rule the Inner Sphere, they saw it as the purpose of their existence (the Crusaders, anyway.) They weren't just going to wait for the treaty to end and then decide to go smoke a bowl instead, they were coming. There was no question about it. The same honor that held them to the treaty also held them to attack again when the treaty ended.

The Trial of Refusal on Strana Mechty is what ended the Clan Invasion. Without the trial, the invasion was going to start all over again in 7 more years. That was the entire point of attacking the Smoke Jaguars. Eliminating the Smoke Jaguars is what had to be done to earn enough respect from the Clans to be allowed that trial. (There is some gaming ogic at work here, you must do A to unlock B.)

The Clans think they're right, and the IS thinks they're right... so who's right? Is anyone right? Battletech often doesn't have an absolute right and wrong. It's faction warfare. Everyone's probably both right and wrong in some or another. There are no easy answers.

Wow... I spent way too much time on this post. Now I don't have time to play the game, I need to make dinner.

[Uncle Totty]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

I agree but it doesn't make it right.

It makes it as "right" as right can be in this world. The sooner you face that fact, the better.

[ManaValkyrie]

Hillslam, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Who were these ComGuard pilots and where did they get their combat expertise honed enough to take on Clan Mechwarriors and win?

Because I don't get it. Sure, Superior Strategy? Check. Superior Preparation? Check. Superior Numbers? check. But at some point your troops are going to have to pull triggers against their troops.

The best answer to your question is the modern day militaries of the world, right up until combat starts, generally none of them have combat experience. In simple terms the Com Guard Armies were made up primarily of extremely well trained and well disciplined troops with limited combat experience.

Yes a handful of the Com Guard were members of houses, mercenary units that decided to join up with Comstar, to get away from personal backgrounds, for example Jerimiah Rose of the Black Thorns who was at Tukayyid with the Com Guard, was from Northwind, who basically ran away to escape his father and family blaming them and the Davions for the death of his mother.

Up until actual combat experience, literally the best training and training envioroments are how Troops are prepared for combat, the better the training the more likely for troops to survive and overcome the horrors of what is happening. Simply put the active brain shuts down and the 'muscle-memory' from repeated training and drill kicks in until the mind can catch up.

[Capp]

Also, the Com Guards had Star League era simulators hidden underground on Terra with the mechs and equipment. It's not quite real life combat but it's as good as training ever got without being in the field.

Edit: Fixed one word.

Edited by Capp, 08 November 2013 - 07:57 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

Well if raiding constitutes the invasion then I say, Wipe out all the Pirates, kill all mercenaries, destroy all the houses and other Clans and hense humanity. I am not trying to justify the Clans or Inner Sphere. In my opinion there is never 100% justification of killing. It is wrong.

Idealists like you are able to be the way you are, because of the wars soldiers fight for your freedom. If thousands were not killed in the defense of your nation You may not have had the right to have your opinion. Remember that when you say it is wrong for Us to kill so You can be safe.

[Joseph Mallan]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

No. And I said I never did justify the Jags. But I.S. only helped prolong it. So there was no good deed done by anyone there.

I'm sorry for my mistakes. I have never been allowed the BT novels as I am 16 and my parents don't allow the books around. I have only learned this much from the video games and what I've read on Sarna and not gotten all the information as I do not have all the access. But I still stand by my views that there is no side that is good and that Victor was just as bad as many of his ancestors and the Clanners. You cannot justify killing completely but it is okay to defend, but not to strike unless absolutely necessary. Clans were wrong to invade. The I.S. was wrong to have a war to control each other for 200 some odd years. The I.S. was wrong (IMO at the time) to invade but I do say it would have eventually been necessary but not at the time until they had actually done something after the Truce. There was no correct side in the matter. The Clans were wrong the I.S. was wrong, everyone was wrong in Lore about something and war is always wrong no matter how you wage it. The destruction of the Jags was the Lesser of 2 evils (the other being let the Truce end and then have another full scale war) but it was not right.

Don't forget, Good Guys have to make bad choices sometimes.

It would be foolish to allow the Clans to resupply and rearm for 15 years. To Capitalize on the lessons learned. A Warrior Culture only understands war as a language. Stopping them while they were still realing from the loss on Tukkyid.

[rolly]

I guess 30 years worth of MW:O would amount to something half decent. At least help to survive the first 30 seconds of initial combat?

[Joseph Mallan]

rolly, on 09 November 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

I guess 30 years worth of MW:O would amount to something half decent. At least help to survive the first 30 seconds of initial combat?

Did you know that on TT a game that lasts 10 turns (4-8 hours real time) is 100 seconds of Combat. Less than 2 minutes!!!

[Vanguard319]

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

A TRUCE is a TRUCE. No one invades in a TRUCE. No one takes territory in a TRUCE.
I probably would have invaded too but guess what I would never in my life claim I was right as no one truly knows what is right or wrong.

That's why the conditions of truce are violated all the time, especially when one side will not accept the terms of said truce (think Israel and Palestine for example)

Marack Drock, on 08 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

So you are saying that if a family had declared vengeance on your you would make sure they never did anything to you by killing all of them even those who hadn't done anything?

Victor did enough damage nothing could ever replace it. There is no justification for killing anyone who didn't deserve it and nothing can change that. Any new warrior (who hadn't been in the war), any civilian, any innocent who was killed was murdered.

I'm going to use another piece of Milsif to answer this. In Ender's Game, it's made clear Ender may be a killer, but he is not a murderer. True to his name, he makes sure that if he must fight, he will defeat his enemy so thoroughly that they will never threaten him again. There was no malice in what he did to Stillson and Bonzo, his thought process at the time was the following:

How do I stop them from hurting me? Once I've defeated them, how do I prevent reprisals?

This is the reason he destroyed them as utterly as he did. He didn't want Stillson or his gang to pursue revenge after beating him, as for Bonzo, he knew Bonzo was crazy enough to kill him if given the chance, and while Ender didn't want to kill either of them, his actions did end both conflicts decisively and permanently. Ender chose to "win the first fight and all the others."

It's the same logic in the BT universe as far as the Smoke Jaguars are concerned. They were the most savage and bloodthirsty of all the clans, and just defeating them in a few battles meant nothing to them. Their way of thinking insulated them from taking the Inner Sphere seriously as a legitimate threat, as failure was the fault of the inferior warrior who lost the battle. It also didn't affect the other clans, as they would see it as something happening o another clan. As has been mentioned, the crusaders had been actively trying to break the truce since it was implemented, and even the refusal war was only able to stall a return to hostilities by a few years.

When the Inner Sphere formed the second Star League, they knew they had to send a brutally clear message to all the clans. This is why the Smoke Jaguars were annihilated: It would definitively put an end to the Jaguars as a threat. It would also send a clear message to the other clans, that the IS could put an end to the clans as a whole if crossed, and that they could kill them on their own worlds if they had to. The only way to send this message was to exterminate the Jaguar warrior caste to the last man, and destroy the clans' capacity to wage war. After mopping up Huntress, the SL then went to Strana Mechty and proved to the other clans that they could do the same to them. While it wasn't enough to make the clans sue for a lasting peace, it did make them realize that the IS was a legitimate threat. That alone was deterrence enough.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You are also missing the point; the truce was NOT violated by the actions of the "Star League". Get the facts before you make such statements. The lore is there to read in black & white.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 10 November 2013 - 05:04 AM.

[Jarl Dane]

Cuz if the clans won then people's favorite factions might have been removed and they would have been upset and stopped playing CBT.

[Mighty Spike]

Sug, on 06 November 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

I believe it's in the original Warrior Trilogy novels where Jamie Wolf and some others(?) discover an underground hanger with rows and rows of pristine mechs as far as the eye could see. They also notice some of the Adepts walking around have cooling vests under their robes.

Right, part 2 of the Warrior Trilogy. Akira Brahe (Yorinaga Kuritas son) discovered at the Royal wedding a large Mech Hangar and Training Rooms under the Comstar Buildings,full with star leauge Mechs. Jamie Wolf, Morgan Kell AND Yorinaga Kurita worked together to help Akira to get out alive.

Edited by Mighty Spike, 10 November 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[rolly]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 November 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Did you know that on TT a game that lasts 10 turns (4-8 hours real time) is 100 seconds of Combat. Less than 2 minutes!!!

Yeah I pretty much remembering that every mech we added to the combat added another hour or so of play. Maybe the Com Guards played TT to pass the time? 30 years is what, 1 TT BT Campaign?