284 replies to this topic

[Sug]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Last not least - do you really think that some parts of ComStar would have accepted the outcome eighter? A good part of them are ancestors of Clan Wolverine...

Come on buddy.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Got it:
Here is my answer:
a couple of Aerospace squadrons - armed with a weapon that start with "A" - and end with "lamo"
Boom no naval forces available

Not to mention that all those Clans have to fight there way to Terra - facing the Drone System - as said its hypothetical - but a victory for the Clans on Tukayyid wouldn't have had any meaning.

IS AeroSpace Squadron= 12 fighters.
Alamo's were good for... 10 damage Capital IIRC. Powerful yes, but easy to destroy in naval combat. It's been a while but I do not remember fighter being able to carry Nukes. And IIRC Alamo's did 10 damage at the Naval level.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Karl Streiger, on 13 November 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

What for a great achievement to conquer planets that are guarded by infantry or are even defenseless at all.

OK they had some great victorys on Tamar (beating already damaged 26th Lyran Guards, and a couple of recruits) and Radstadt.


You think that the IS would have accepted the outcome? I really ask my self if the Clans would have been able to hold Terra - when a combined might of FWL, ConCap, FedCom and DC would have attacked them.

Last not least - do you really think that some parts of ComStar would have accepted the outcome eighter? A good part of them are ancestors of Clan Wolverine...they would have nuked the Clans allready in 3053 when they would have gotten the chance.

What might? All those "Great Houses" did not look so great before Tukayyid. The Era Report confirms it, they were LOSING. Consider that every world lost is a resource they no longer have, that the Clans now have access to. Additionally, consider that even after the YoP with the SS "working together", if you can call it that & even with the new training, mechs, gear & supplies they received, they were still losing.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 November 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[dal10]

Nathan K, on 13 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I know this is old but...



No, you're just speaking a hard truth. Earth can hold and support only so many people.

someone agrees with me on this. that is new.

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

A minimum of12 Essex (All Nova Cat Ships) say they had a better than average chance. Throw in the Wolf's McKenna and very few troops would have be able to land.

now i am not sure what class of warship the Dire Wolf was, but if one fighter could pierce its armor by ramming it. the inner sphere has a lot more fighters than the clans have warships. would you be surprised if the combine rammed nuke laden ones one after another into the same spot until they could nuke it from the inside? you push the successor states to the wall, they will weapon of mass destruction back.

[Skylarr]

Quote

The CWS Dire Wolf was a Sovetskii Soyuz-class WarShip.

The Sovetskii Soyuz was originally classed as a heavy cruiser developed as part of an overhaul of the Star League Defense Forces naval fleet following years of neglect due to large amounts of money being spent on the automated Space Defense Systems. While SDS construction had been going on, the Star League fleet had fallen behind in technology and capability when compared to newer WarShips emerging from member state shipyards. The Sovetskii Soyuz was one of a number of new designs to emerge following the New Arms Order of 2735 and was notable for its large use of computer control as well as its heavy armament. Four hundred ships of this class would be built before the Amaris Civil War brought about the downfall of the Star League. The vast majority were destroyed in the attempt to depose Amaris, but around 40 surviving vessels left with General Kerensky's Exodus fleet and a number continue to serve in the Clan toumans. It became public knowledge in the second half of the thirty-first century that ComStar maintained two Sovetskii Soyuzes in service as a part of their WarShip fleet, and during the course of the Jihad it became apparent that the Word of Blake had recovered two Sovetskii Soyuzes of their own and restored them to service.
Capabilities

The class carries such a large armament that some officers consider the Sovetskii Soyuz a mini-Battlecruiser. Its formidable weapons array consists of 12 Class-20 Naval Autocannons, 6 Class 45 Naval Lasers, 8 Medium Naval Particle Projection Cannons, 2 White Shark and 4 Barracuda Missile Launcher batteries. The size and number of these weapons however required a sacrifice in armor, with the ship mounting almost 50% less armor than the smaller Black Lion battlecruiser. Despite the light armor the Sovetskii Soyuz class were able to perform well in the war to liberate Terra, using its long range firepower to keep adversaries at a distance.

12 x NAC/20s
6 x NL45s
8 x Medium NPPCs
2 x Killer Whale Missile Launchers
4 x Barracuda Missile Launchers
Cargo

209,861 tons

• Bay 1: 20 Fighters
  
• Bay 2: 8 Small Craft
  
• Bay 3: Cargo

Variants

As with all their WarShips, the Clans have performed periodic maintenance upgrades which have introduced new tech. The main differences between the ships used by the Clans and the Star League Navy are an increased fighter compliment, upgrading the armor to Ferro-Aluminum armor and adding HarJel hull sealant units.

Quote

During the time of the short lived Clan Jade Wolf, the Dire Wolf was assigned to the Clan command keshik. It had been modified to transport six DropShips.

[Rovertoo]

Nathan K, on 13 November 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

I know this is old but...



No, you're just speaking a hard truth. Earth can hold and support only so many people.

Just so you know, the only real growth in population is coming from 3rd world countries. Most 1st world countries have negative growth rates, or very close to 2.0. In the case of the good US, it's population is nearly completely sustained by Mexico and Utah. Another interesting note, Japanese aren't having any kids at all. The country is projected to cease to exist in the next 50 years or so.

Tidbits for the Forums, I guess.

Edited by Rovertoo, 13 November 2013 - 04:22 PM.

[dal10]

well considering both the essex class and the aegis class have less integrity than the dire wolf did, an aerospace fighter suicide attack could entirely destroy either class of ship.

the mckenna would be a bit tougher of a nut to crack, but considering that nukes actually work as intended in space in BT lore, though not in real life, and comstars 31 warships were nothing to smirk at either. considering that between wolf and nova cat, they had 55 ships total, though clan wolf only brought 2 of their 13 with the falcons bringing the most at 28, almost all of which were aegises,

it is entirely possible that no clan was capable of holding terra on its own. against a full assault by all of the inner sphere states i am not sure that even all 7 of the invading clans pre-tukayyid could hold terra. at best they would hold a 2-1 warship advantage over the sphere, and with a combination of suicidal rammings and nuclear weapons that level of advantage is beatable.

my guess is that the fleets would wipe each other out, leaving a few badly damaged ships remaining. on the ground you would be looking at all 50+ regiments of comstar forces plus at least another 40-50 from fedcom alone. it right smack dab in the middle of their supply line, so they definitely could pull forces that have yet to make it to the clans from fed suns into that fight. Not even Romano could ignore the fight once it got that close, so you are looking at 10-20 cappie regiments and probably similar amounts from marik as well. kurita would probably strip their entire remaining fed suns borders to help blunt the assault. so the clans are looking at fighting fanatics with no reserves on tactics in space and 150+ regiments of mechs + at least that much in supporting units on the ground. you are looking at 40-50 galaxies at a bare minimum to take that. but the thing is even if you can win 1 galaxy to 3 regiments, running 10 galaxies to 30 regiments is an entirely different story. to put it simply, you are looking at 10s of thousands of mechs difference in numbers.

Edited by dal10, 13 November 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Ice Viper]

Nope...you are all wrong. The Comstar Guards were actually trained by the same Ewoks who defeated a legion of the Emperors finest troops on Endor with a bunch of rocks, spears and five-fifty cord around trees. /true story...

[pbiggz]

I was under the impression that the only part of the dire wolf destroyed was the bridge (which tyra miraborg destroyed with her fighter), meaning that while she killed or crippled several important people in the bridge, the ship was still largely operational.

[dal10]

pbiggz, on 13 November 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I was under the impression that the only part of the dire wolf destroyed was the bridge (which tyra miraborg destroyed with her fighter), meaning that while she killed or crippled several important people in the bridge, the ship was still largely operational.

i believe that someone says in the same book that a few meters up and she would have pierced a bulkhead releasing massive amounts of the ships air into space. bulkhead sounds armory to me.

[Karl Streiger]

Well i have finally found out that the Alamo Rules have changed:
- a Alamo deals indeed only 10 damage of Capital Damage to the armor of a craft. But a critical hit is applied - on 10+ the structural integrity of any craft in space takes 100dmg must be enough to destroy most War Ships (Exception -> Avalon, Mjolnir, Du Shi Wang, and the Leviathan Battleship)
Best defense is a lot of anit air craft weapons and point defense weapons.

in BattleSpace - a Alamo only dealt damage on the rolled 10+ -> autokilling the target

dal10, on 13 November 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

i believe that someone says in the same book that a few meters up and she would have pierced a bulkhead releasing massive amounts of the ships air into space. bulkhead sounds armory to me.

To penetrate the Dire Wolf you need 740 standard damage -> to deal that with a shilone that thing has to move with a velocity of 114 ~ 34km/s (if i transfered the scale right)
I can' see any ramming rules in my old BattleSpace book - > although i thought they were there.

So ramming with an aerospace fighter doesn't look like an option -> maybe the usage of a drone programmed dropship.

Funny -> would really be interesting how the Clan battle for Terra would look like.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 November 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[B0oN]

Spoiler

Jaroth Corbett, on 06 November 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

OK home from work.



I have them in .pdf format if you want.



Clan Wolf was successful in their campaign. ComStar won as I mentioned earlier because:

1. Focht set up a prolonged engagement:





Tukayyid - Pg.11



Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 3 - Lost Destiny

2. The Com Guards used fake structures to trick the Clans in at least one campaign (Jade Falcons)









Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Book 3 - Falcon Guard

3. ALL of the Com Guard troops assigned to the campaign were deployed & rerouted for the smaller battles against ALL the Clans.



4. The Clans were not united. Focht admitted to Ulric that had they been, the Clans would have won.



Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 3 - Lost Destiny



As far as the Clan warriors being superior, it was not only their eugenics.



The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.62



Blood of Kerensky Trilogy - Book 2 - Blood Legacy

To further enhance Jaroth Corbett´s offer I can provide all the german books, shoot me a PM for the link.

[ManaValkyrie]

dal10, on 13 November 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

i believe that someone says in the same book that a few meters up and she would have pierced a bulkhead releasing massive amounts of the ships air into space. bulkhead sounds armory to me.

A bulkhead is not armoury, on a naval vessel, a bulkhead is an internal dividing wall that seperates various compartments to maintain integrity within a vessel should collision, flooding, fire.etc occur. In a naval vessel (especially military) Bulkheads compartmentalize ships heavily. This prevents rapid spread of bad conditions. A ship at battlestations will be closed down to full integrity, i.e. every bulkhead opening will be closed and fully sealed.

The likelyhood that a compartment or two is lost would possibly be high, but the whole ship, unless the fighter actually rammed an armoury or the ships reactor, which are usually some of the most heavily armoured and compartmentalized sections, its doubtful that a small ship would take out a much larger ship with collision. Besides most weapons/warheads aren't physically armed until they fire or have been fired and most ordanance is actually pretty hard to set off accidently in modern settings.

The explosives are usually of a type that won't detonate or explode due to fire/heat but require a specific trigger mechanism/chain to actually detonate.

[Xelchon]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 November 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Actually he did. He also shared his knowledge & tactics with the other Clans.


As the ilKhan he DID have a right, however as he explained to Focht, he did not have the desire.

No, Ulric did not warn them about the long-term ammo and supply need. In many fronts that was why the other clans came to stop their advance. He wanted them to lose and that's a given.

On the second case; I would like to see the exact quote.
IF he had the right, he did not exercise it and that is as foul as sending his own men to die... but again, Ulric was not the paragon of virtue that Stackpole showed him to be. No offense, Stackpole, I love your writing, but you love your wolves too much
One thing is true is that on the specific battlefield of Tukayyid which is the topic; all clans were by themselves. After they did the bidding of forces; each clan, on their own, went by their own method to achieve their objective by whatever means.

Edited by Xelchon, 14 November 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[TekSiDoT]

Rad Hanzo, on 14 November 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

Spoiler

To further enhance Jaroth Corbett´s offer I can provide all the german books, shoot me a PM for the link.

You guys should watch out not to infringe someones copyright.

[B0oN]

Sadly, getting the books in paper nowadays is a major p.i.t.a

[Jakob Knight]

Karl Streiger, on 14 November 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Well i have finally found out that the Alamo Rules have changed:
- a Alamo deals indeed only 10 damage of Capital Damage to the armor of a craft. But a critical hit is applied - on 10+ the structural integrity of any craft in space takes 100dmg must be enough to destroy most War Ships (Exception -> Avalon, Mjolnir, Du Shi Wang, and the Leviathan Battleship)
Best defense is a lot of anit air craft weapons and point defense weapons.

in BattleSpace - a Alamo only dealt damage on the rolled 10+ -> autokilling the target



To penetrate the Dire Wolf you need 740 standard damage -> to deal that with a shilone that thing has to move with a velocity of 114 ~ 34km/s (if i transfered the scale right)
I can' see any ramming rules in my old BattleSpace book - > although i thought they were there.

So ramming with an aerospace fighter doesn't look like an option -> maybe the usage of a drone programmed dropship.

Funny -> would really be interesting how the Clan battle for Terra would look like.

Well, this is why you had the critical hit results on the old damage tables. Every armored unit in Battletech has/had weak areas in the armor/structure (armor seams, thermal vents, control line passage ports, ect,) that had to be there or the unit could not function or be repaired/maintained. While well-protected and/or extremely difficult to hit, there is always a possibility of an attack hitting one of these areas and getting past all the defenses to strike at a vunerable section. So, to use your example, apply the damage as per a critical hit and see what results you can get.

ManaValkyrie, on 14 November 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

A bulkhead is not armoury, on a naval vessel, a bulkhead is an internal dividing wall that seperates various compartments to maintain integrity within a vessel should collision, flooding, fire.etc occur. In a naval vessel (especially military) Bulkheads compartmentalize ships heavily. This prevents rapid spread of bad conditions. A ship at battlestations will be closed down to full integrity, i.e. every bulkhead opening will be closed and fully sealed.

The likelyhood that a compartment or two is lost would possibly be high, but the whole ship, unless the fighter actually rammed an armoury or the ships reactor, which are usually some of the most heavily armoured and compartmentalized sections, its doubtful that a small ship would take out a much larger ship with collision. Besides most weapons/warheads aren't physically armed until they fire or have been fired and most ordanance is actually pretty hard to set off accidently in modern settings.

The explosives are usually of a type that won't detonate or explode due to fire/heat but require a specific trigger mechanism/chain to actually detonate.

Well, as noted above, we're talking about an unusual strike where a very high amount of damage was done to places of the ship that were never designed for that kind of strike. This tends to play havok with any planning for damage control or mitigation, and can produce results completely at odds with what would be expected from a similar hit in ordinary circumstances (look at the HMS Hood for one famous example).

As for weapons being armed, weapons are still dangerous devices that are inherently designed to do damage. In normal conditions, it is supposed to do this at some distance from the firing unit, but it will do so wherever circumstances are right for it to activate. Missiles still have their warheads and fuel that can detonate under enough energy applied, autocannons have propellant, energy weapons have power feed lines and transformers. Also, some weapons are always armed as a rule, such as countermeasures devices and preloaded cannon shells. This is why a misfire in a magazine is still a catalysmic event for a unit, as even deactivated weapons can do massive damage. When dealing with damage from incoming fire, all design specs go out the window as the weapon is drastically and violently redesigned in ways the engineers never envisioned instantly.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Xelchon, on 14 November 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

No, Ulric did not warn them about the long-term ammo and supply need. In many fronts that was why the other clans came to stop their advance. He wanted them to lose and that's a given.

On the second case; I would like to see the exact quote.
IF he had the right, he did not exercise it and that is as foul as sending his own men to die... but again, Ulric was not the paragon of virtue that Stackpole showed him to be. No offense, Stackpole, I love your writing, but you love your wolves too much
One thing is true is that on the specific battlefield of Tukayyid which is the topic; all clans were by themselves. After they did the bidding of forces; each clan, on their own, went by their own method to achieve their objective by whatever means.

Yes he did warn them. My statements stand & I will provide proof both of them when I get back home from work.

[Joseph Mallan]

dal10, on 13 November 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

someone agrees with me on this. that is new.


now i am not sure what class of warship the Dire Wolf was, but if one fighter could pierce its armor by ramming it. the inner sphere has a lot more fighters than the clans have warships. would you be surprised if the combine rammed nuke laden ones one after another into the same spot until they could nuke it from the inside? you push the successor states to the wall, they will weapon of mass destruction back.

The Sovetskii was a bit thin skinned (88 points per section IIRC), and ramming rules... Well a Killer Whale does a mere 4-5 points of damage but could deliver over 20 if it could ram a ship instead of explode Second do you know how slow it is to launch fighters? Most Warships only had 1-3 launch doors. Most Warships folded under the guns of an Aegis (300+to 700+ damage if Long or medium range) in 2 turns. That is at the very least 6 vessels dying every turn. 12 Aegis could wipe out 12 destroyer and cripple another 4-5 Cruisers in the first 10 seconds of battle. How many ships did the Inner Sphere have? Ad to that The Diamond Shark's Potemkin laden Fleet, and the Jade Falcons 9 Aegis, and the Jaguar & Ghost Bear Frigate and Destroyer fleet, Clan Wolf's Navy was not huge but it was worthy of mention.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 November 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

The Sovetskii was a bit thin skinned (88 points per section IIRC), and ramming rules... Well a Killer Whale does a mere 4-5 points of damage but could deliver over 20 if it could ram a ship instead of explode

but when it doesn't use the ramming rules you have a 10+ for an critical hit - that would deal 2-4? to the SI of your ship.
If you are a drop ship you will mostly get 2 critical hits.

For example the Kraken T -> could cause two criticals on the bow of an Ageis both with 8+
There is a reason why the number of missiles you can add to a warship are limited. Its the death by paper cuts weapon of Naval Warfare.