216 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 19 November 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

JJs already have a major drawback: You can be shot out of the sky.

Which reminds me, is this a legit poll or another anti-poptart rant masquerading as one.

And you just killed the fun out of JJ-equipped lights taking full advantage of the third dimension ( ). As such, instead of asking for nerfs with unintended consequences, maybe you should just learn how to properly deal with poptarts by not being like a big, fat, and slow British Matilda II tank trying to rush an Afrika Korps 8.8 cm Flak 37 ( ).

Then provide the Atlas chassis with JJ's, so they too can partake in this high flying, Fun as all get out, JJ'ing bonanza, just like all those Highlander pilots. What is a 10 ton difference between mates right?

[DaZur]

Seriously?

Anyone who declares a poptart an indefensible asset needs to have their pilot license revoked... I can't believe this argument is even being waged.

A poptart is a stationary asset that is easily defeated by flanking or coordinated paired attack. If you are being defeated by a single poptart, you are "doing it wrong" and are the single most contributor to your failure in dealing with them.

That said... a lance of them, well... hells bells, you may want to start planning your next drop unless you can coordinate your team to flank and push properly.

[Diego Angelus]

Mystere, on 21 November 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Let me see ...



That's not the 1-JJ problem you mentioned. Also, for an Assault, 2 JJs is equivalent to 2 criticals and 4 tons. That's more ammo and/or larger/more weapons.




See above.


Another thing that is not the 1-JJ problem you mentioned.

Need I say more?

Again wrong I was replying to Lucian because he said I want weapons to be locked while Jump jeting or something witch is not true and you were agreeing with that ... 2 jj for assault still doesn't make enough difference so yes i still say there is not real drawback.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mercules, on 21 November 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

So because your teammates are dumb.... something needs to be nerfed?

The solution to beating poptarts is not standing around int he area they were shooting but moving and flanking them from a different location. Hard to get PUGs to understand this but we don't balance around stupidity. A Flanking spotter and LRMs will also teach the poptart a lesson but again... teamwork.

Okay well what about places like frozen city, where the only way to go is to flank right, go up the ridge or go back? And yes lrms are generally good against poptarts, until they bring ecm. Spotters work to an extent, until they are discovered by the enemy lights, then its back to getting your own locks with your tag, (assuming the team was smart and brought ecm) which generally doesn't lock fast enough to allow you to hit the poptarts under ecm. On a side note, I wish there were more light spotters in PUG games, but then that boils down to whether internal voice chat should be put in, whether grouped players should be separated from pug only players, all that stuff. Admittedly internal voice chat would alleviate alot of the difficulty with working with pugs. Which would be a nice change, no offense to pugs, its just a pain working with some of the less cooperative players. But I generally agree, alot of these issues would be less severe if pugs cooperated.

[Mystere]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

are you seriously saying my team should all get behind cover to avoid ONE poptart?

In real life combat, what do soldiers normally do when they hear the crack of a sniper's shot? Don't they all run like hell for cover before even trying to think of what to do next?

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 21 November 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Then provide the Atlas chassis with JJ's, so they too can partake in this high flying, Fun as all get out, JJ'ing bonanza, just like all those Highlander pilots. What is a 10 ton difference between mates right?

Yes, lets!

[Almond Brown]

Thorqemada, on 19 November 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

stuff

Identify first what Mechs have to much Advantages from JJs and why!

Not all Mechs have JJ's. Why a Highlander at 90t gets them but not an Atlas at a mere 10t more?

Never seemed right when some Mechs get them and others do not, given there apparent advantages. Word is if a Chassis has JJ, use them or be gimping your ride. Gotta be something in that right?

20t - No
25t - No
30t - Yes
35t -Yes
40t - No
45t - Yes
50t - yes (1/3)
55t - Yes (1/2)
60t - Yes (1/2)
65t - Yes (2/3)
70t - Yes
75t - No
80t - Yes (1/2)
85t - No
90t - Yes
100t - No

A pretty arbitrary looking list. Perhaps future Mechs will resolve this issue then...?

Edited by Almond Brown, 21 November 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mystere, on 21 November 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

In real life combat, what do soldiers normally do when they hear the crack of a sniper's shot? Don't they all run like hell for cover before even trying to think of what to do next?

If they are smart? Yes. Find cover. Locate and destroy the enemy with overlapping fields of fire. It is exactly what our squad did when we were accidently marched into the impact area of our company's 50 cals by our Sgt!

[-Natural Selection-]

All you have to do is watch a pooptart. They rarely move far from where they start from, along with their victims. When rushed they normally still bounce around in front of you instead of taking cover. Allot are poor builds and overheat when they get unnerved in a pinch. All I can tell you to do is to use X,Y axis to counter his Z only movements.

[Clit Beastwood]

The thing with poptarts is... they can only see you when they're aloft. You also, by this time, should know how long jumpjets take to recharge. Move while they're recharging, then hide before they pop again. Don't be where they expect you. Poptarts are dangerous for a few reasons. A poptart does a lot of damage to a single section, but they *also* cause some pilots to freeze up. All they need to do is keep you pinned while their teammates move in on you. It's really not hard. If you're going to run something really heavy and slow, realize that it's your fault you're dying. Personally, speed is a better weapon than a PPC or AC20 (for me). Learn how to stand. Then learn how to move. THEN learn how to shoot. There's so much focus on packing the max number of weapons possible on a mech in order to make it effective - the majority of my most effective mechs are often called "under-armed" by teammates chatting after they die. But they're dead and I'm not.

[DaZur]

Dozier, on 21 November 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

All you have to do is watch a pooptart. They rarely move far from where they start from, along with their victims. When rushed they normally still bounce around in front of you instead of taking cover. Allot are poor builds and overheat when they get unnerved in a pinch. All I can tell you to do is to use X,Y axis to counter his Z only movements.

Oh, but that would be applying tactical maneuvering and clearly that's too advanced for us when we still can't quite grasp seeking cover when under fire...

[ColourfulConfetti]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Seriously?

Anyone who declares a poptart an indefensible asset needs to have their pilot license revoked... I can't believe this argument is even being waged.

A poptart is a stationary asset that is easily defeated by flanking or coordinated paired attack. If you are being defeated by a single poptart, you are "doing it wrong" and are the single most contributor to your failure in dealing with them.

That said... a lance of them, well... hells bells, you may want to start planning your next drop unless you can coordinate your team to flank and push properly.

Err what? Yeah try flanking a poptart behind the dropship in frozen city while protected by his whole team, that will work very well. Best you can do is hope they are stupid and poptart in the same location, then return fire. But a good poptart probably isn't stupid and probably doesn't tart in the same area. One poptart usually doesn't seal the fate of the game, unless they are again, from a competitive team, which I DO see in my games enough to be a bit annoying. But then you get 2 or three of them, and at that point, its pretty one sided if you have no poptarts of your own. Your clueless if you think good poptarts are nothing to scoff at.

[DaZur]

Fierostetz, on 21 November 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

The thing with poptarts is... they can only see you when they're aloft. You also, by this time, should know how long jumpjets take to recharge. Move while they're recharging, then hide before they pop again. Don't be where they expect you. Poptarts are dangerous for a few reasons. A poptart does a lot of damage to a single section, but they *also* cause some pilots to freeze up. All they need to do is keep you pinned while their teammates move in on you. It's really not hard. If you're going to run something really heavy and slow, realize that it's your fault you're dying. Personally, speed is a better weapon than a PPC or AC20 (for me). Learn how to stand. Then learn how to move. THEN learn how to shoot. There's so much focus on packing the max number of weapons possible on a mech in order to make it effective - the majority of my most effective mechs are often called "under-armed" by teammates chatting after they die. But they're dead and I'm not.

QFT...

In CB I fell into the trapping of seeking the highest alpha and face-humping was my go-to tactic. I soon learned I actually performed better when using a faster mech, higher DPS and JJs for tactical maneuvering...

I've never looked back and my Fatlas collects dust.

[DaZur]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Err what? Yeah try flanking a poptart behind the dropship in frozen city while protected by his whole team, that will work very well. Best you can do is hope they are stupid and poptart in the same location, then return fire. But a good poptart probably isn't stupid and probably doesn't tart in the same area. One poptart usually doesn't seal the fate of the game, unless they are again, from a competitive team, which I DO see in my games enough to be a bit annoying. But then you get 2 or three of them, and at that point, its pretty one sided if you have no poptarts of your own. Your clueless if you think good poptarts are nothing to scoff at.

Then don't engage that mech!!! There are typically at least 4 other mechs that do not have tactical advantage that you can engage with on equal or advantageous terms...

You reduce the opposing force, THEN several of you push on the poptart in force...

This kills me... everyone wants to just Leroy rush everything without stopping to problem-solve a solution.... and surprisingly enough, most of the time it involves more than just a single player...

Edited by DaZur, 21 November 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Mercules]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Okay well what about places like frozen city, where the only way to go is to flank right, go up the ridge or go back?

If they have a Poptart leave a couple slow mechs in place returning fire with something like Lasers for the grazing hits just to keep him interested then everyone else piles into cave and moves swiftly through to the other side and hope like hell they don't realize and push. You can do the same with Jenner Highway just stick together down there and come up behind them.

If you have mediums that are faster they can go either route and you all push when they rush out and start shooting.


The problem, as you noted, is coordinating these things is hard without voice coms. I've "disrupted" a Poptart or three in a fast light before, long enough to get my few other guys on voice to push up and shoot them in the back while they tried to hop and shoot me. I don't think I survive those and usually we lose the lance, but it is often enough to get the rest moving forward and taking advantage of the chaos.

[PappySmurf]

All I can sayt to this topic and thread is I want Mechwarrior4 back!!! it was really a great game if I wanted to jumpjet and poptart I could.
If I wanted to be a fast maneuverable brawler or poptart killer I could.
I just don't understand why MWO is so lame and un diverse in its meta and gameplay. Its not like PGI did not have examples of MechWarrior?

Mechwarrior2 and all its expansions?
Mechwarrio3 and all its expansions?
MechWarrior4 and all its expansions?
MechAssault and its expansions.

It truly amazes me how Dumbed down MWO is compared to all those games.

Edited by PappySmurf, 21 November 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Mercules, on 21 November 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

If they have a Poptart leave a couple slow mechs in place returning fire with something like Lasers for the grazing hits just to keep him interested then everyone else piles into cave and moves swiftly through to the other side and hope like hell they don't realize and push. You can do the same with Jenner Highway just stick together down there and come up behind them.

If you have mediums that are faster they can go either route and you all push when they rush out and start shooting.


The problem, as you noted, is coordinating these things is hard without voice coms. I've "disrupted" a Poptart or three in a fast light before, long enough to get my few other guys on voice to push up and shoot them in the back while they tried to hop and shoot me. I don't think I survive those and usually we lose the lance, but it is often enough to get the rest moving forward and taking advantage of the chaos.

I pug in a TAG spider sometimes. What I do is ask at the beginning of every match "Who has LRMS? I have a TAG - if I know who's shooting I'll set up shots if its worthwhile" - later, I'll type "I'm going to tag the poptart behind the dropship in about 20 seconds, LRM boats, please try to drop some missiles on him" - then I run out of my concealment and work my way toward the aforementioned poptart. Often (more now than a month ago) as soon as I tag the poptart, they'll start raining on him. Text chat *works*, but I think many people type kinda slowly. Thats a severely limiting factor.

[ColourfulConfetti]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Then don't engage that mech!!! There are typically at least 4 other mechs that do not have tactical advantage that you can engage with on equal or advantageous terms...

You reduce the opposing force, THEN several of you push on the poptart in force...

This kills me... everyone wants to just Leroy rush everything without stopping to problem-solve a solution.... and surprisingly enough, most of the time it involves more than just a single player...

I do, I engage other mechs, when the poptart is busy blowing away the rest of my team, sometimes, it still isn't enough, the poptart end up killing two of my teammates by the time I played my part, thats why I'm frustrated, cause it feels like no matter what I do, the poptart always seems to have done so much more in so little time, I suppsoe you can quip with the whole learn to play mantra or the carry harder thing, but it really seems I'd be doing much more going poptart at this point, which, I really shouldn't have to resort to.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 21 November 2013 - 11:01 AM.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

If they are smart? Yes. Find cover. Locate and destroy the enemy with overlapping fields of fire.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Joseph Mallan, on 21 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

If they are smart? Yes. Find cover. Locate and destroy the enemy with overlapping fields of fire. It is exactly what our squad did when we were accidently marched into the impact area of our company's 50 cals by our Sgt!

Ouch! Bad, bad NCO.

[DaZur]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I do, I engage other mechs, when the poptart is busy blowing away the rest of my team, sometimes, it still isn't enough, the poptart end up killing two of my teammates by the time I played my part, thats why I'm frustrated, cause it feels like no matter what I do, the poptart always seems to have done so much more in so little time, I suppsoe you can quip with the whole learn to play mantra or the carry harder thing, but it really seems I'd be doing much more going poptart at this point, which, I really shouldn't have to resort to.

No offense but you're thinking too myopically...

A poptarts tactic is linear and static. If you (and or your teammates) are not seeking cover, attempting to flank or pushing enmass on the poptart, you are allowing the poptart to dictate the terms of the engagement.

Obviously there will be situations where no matter what you do, that poptart is going to win out... That said, their success is fleeting as you learn to recognize their limitations and know when and how to counter.

Oh, and just for clarity... There is zero difference between a fresh-meat poptart and and "competitive" poptart save teammates patting them on their backs telling them how awesome they are.

poptarting is the lowest form of tactical engagement, requiring the least amount of skill and is not deserving of any sort of accolades IMHO.