109 replies to this topic

[SpiralFace]

Cathy, on 25 November 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Which is why on the whole you'll see black people in every house but until a few later editions played catch up, they were mostly forgotten as four guys hunting down a lion over a period of three days armed with nothing but a spear each and a flask of water, is clearly not as brave or honourable as a bunch of spazed out space samurai.( this is sarcasm btw)

which is captalisms way of saying there are more rich people in Japan than Kenya.


which is going to be the real reason they got forgotten once all the bull is stripped away and being PC is pushed under the carpet for a brief time.

I get where this is coming from, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

One of the earliest examples of fiction in the Novel series was the "heir to the Dragon" book. Which featured a Black Kuritan character as the central character in the story. Despite the "80's" inspired cover, I felt the book treated him with respect. He was black, it got brought up a lot as far as the xenophobic dealings with his predominantly Asian superiors, but he himself wasn't a "stereotype" by any means.

He was highly capable, intelligent, honorable, and great at what he did. And despite everything that was thrown at him, he remained true to himself up till the end. They didn't rope him in as a "fish out of water," as a black person in a predominantly asian culture, they didn't make his race a reason to put him in certain situations or others, He was just simply a Kuritan that had African Heritage (I think that's actually how they bring it up in the books.)

While I agree that most of the early fiction revolved around the actual mech's and battle's they got into, None of the early fiction ever treated characters of African heritage as " the lion hunting spear chucker's." And I felt they did a good job of kind of transcending race and gender cultures pretty much throughout the fiction. Natasha Kerensky was always the biggest bad *** in the intersphere since ver. 1.0, and you can always say that the early fiction was never descriptive enough to even bring race up as a consideration.

I mean, if you where to just look at the name on the paper "Minobu Tetsuhara" you wouldn't know he was Black. So what is to say that early fictional interpretations didn't see characters in different ethnicity as well. Heck, reading Warrior Trilogy, I will always read Myndo Waterly as a very capable Black Woman (Also Kuritan,) who was arguably more powerful then ANY of the house lords. (The books describe her as dark skinned, and the early illustrations of her depicted her as Black. I really don't know why or when they "white washed" her.)

[Victor Morson]

Only the royal families really are notably from the same ethnic groups, everyone else in all the factions are blended heavily.

Culturally, there are many regions that have founded planets elsewhere within the IS, in a manner that might not gel with the local empire wide culture too. There are planets founded by a lot of these regions.

Of course, the only one springing to mind for South Africa is New Capetown, which is really walking the offensive line in my opinion. From Sarna:

Quote

For many years New Capetown was one of the Lyran Commonwealth's uglier worlds. The climate and environment were quite lovely; The problem was with the initial settlers and the government they created. These colonists were from the nation of South Africa on Terra, a realm known for it's prejudices. The colonists established a government based on racist ideals that used skin color to determine social class. This government was able to find trading partners and export raw materials and commercial goods to other worlds, but their internal policies made them unpopular with their trading partners. This translated into limited economic growth as these trading partners devoted more of their efforts to other, less-repressive Commonwealth worlds.^[1]
In 3030 Archon Katrina Steiner sponsored an effort to overthrow this government, and it was successful. Though pockets of racism still exist on the world, they're mostly focused on the Clans.^[1] The Jihad had little effect on New Capetown as the world has few industries. Various raids by the Clans during that time has inflamed the inhabitant's dislike of those factions.^[2]

Somehow the only planet I can think of being founded by colonists from South Africa ends up a hive of racism and ugliness until imperialist forces lead by one of the whitest characters in the BTU to take them over is.... wellllll.... I think you can see why this is probably a little worse than the typical butchering of, say, Japanese culture.

There are reasons I think they should have done an actual BTU reboot.

None the less, this kind of thing is barely a footnote in the overall universe and generally speaking they do push an interesting "Race and culture aren't really tied together at all anymore" angle in many of the novels. You are as likely to find a black Samurai in the combine as you are a Japanese Davion officer. I think that's a far better take (and way, way more realistic) even if artists keep having a habit of depicting everyone in, say, Kurita as Japanese.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 November 2013 - 05:18 PM.

[Wildstreak]

I never really worried about race when it came to playing games though I know they have been somewhat stereotyped over the years from first glance at game worlds. Players, no but design of worlds / universes, somewhat.

Blacks in BattleTech
I would just presume anywhere. Nothing says for or against it so you can presume they are in any House / Clan unless something says NO BLACKS.

Now if you are talking prominent Blacks (I know some people judge games by image) House Kurita has some, I believe there were historical moments where high commanders in the Royal Steiner court were Black, Merc Units have Blacks. Never saw any focus on race in the Clans.

One thing I never get, if you are going to look at something like this given what I know, why not just start your own legacy of making your own fictional character who becomes a prominent Black or some other race if ethnicity is interesting to you. Nothing against that. Become the first prominent Black Davion, Liao, Marik or whatever.

[SpiralFace]

Keep in mind that Sarna is not offical cannon, although they reference it regularly.

I don't know where that description came from, but If it didn't come from any official FASA or Catalyst publication, I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Even if it is official, who cares? South Africa today is a very racially charged place, from apatite, to a ritch white family "living it up" in the slums for a week, to an entire resort that lets more ritch white people live like the poor people that they have no interest in helping. Sometimes there are just terrible places in the world run by terrible people. Who's to say that those same people don't go out and colonize space? As it is more then likely that those rich people that oppress others would be the ones doing the colonizing.

The BT universe is not the federation where mankind bands together in peace and harmony for the good of the species. Its a universe painted in grey. One that has instances of both good and bad throughout its history. Much like today, if you are black and living in the western world, how many of them associate themselves as "African?" Most of my black friends consider themselves American, British, or Canadian. Not African. Much the same in the BT universe. You'll see people associated more as members of the Combine, the League, or the FedSuns. Not where their culture came from on earth.

[Strum Wealh]

SpiralFace, on 25 November 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

Heck, reading Warrior Trilogy, I will always read Myndo Waterly as a very capable Black Woman (Also Kuritan,) who was arguably more powerful then ANY of the house lords. (The books describe her as dark skinned, and the early illustrations of her depicted her as Black. I really don't know why or when they "white washed" her.)

Wait... where did it ever imply that Waterly was Black?

She's consistently referred to as blonde/fair-haired, and there is one passage that describes her as having a "dark-eyed glance".

Quote

Myndo Waterly, the Precentor of Dieron, tried to slip into the Primus's chambers silently. So fluid was her gait that she made it all the way to the golden star symbol inlaid in the floor without so much as a whisper of her silken robes to announce her approach. Taking a deep breath, she stopped there and let the hood of her red robe slip back from her fair hair. In the half-second she allowed herself to recall the starting point of her argument, the Primus utterly shattered her strategy.

Quote

Myndo shook her golden hair back from the shoulders of her red silk robe. "Blake said wars would fragment the Successor States. Then, and only then, would ComStar rise up to lead mankind to its true pinnacle. Hanse Davion's war has swallowed half the Capellan Confederation. It does not divide. It unites!"

Quote

Primus Myndo Waterly looked down from her exalted position to where her former peers stood at their crystalline podia. Her golden silk robe flashed with highlights slightly darker than her hair and felt very good against her skin. Almost as good as having won election to the Primary.

-----

Her dark-eyed glance recognized Villius Tejh, granting him permission to speak only moments before he would have usurped that right. You still smart at losing, don't you, Precentor Sian? You would have won had I not reminded everyone that you failed to discover or inform us that Justin Xiang was really a Davion agent. You laid the blame for that on poor Julian Tiepolo as he lay dying. You avoided the repercussions, but it still hurts you. I'll have to put you out of your misery, like some wounded animal.

Each of the quotations is from Warrior: En Garde (source) and Warrior: Coupé (source, source).

----------

I certainly agree that BattleTech could certainly benefit from a greater number of positively-portrayed Black characters.
Ariana Winston, CO of the Eridani Light Horse, comes to mind as an effectively-ideal example.

Though, her father and predecessor (Charles K. Winston) is described in Sword and Dagger as "almost a negative image of his daughter" and "short, light-complexioned, and possessed of a runner's build" while Ariana herself is described in the same passage as "tall, dark-skinned, and well built, with the muscles of a decathelete" (source); it is unclear whether the implication is whether Charles is also Black (albeit relatively light-skinned) or if Ariana is supposed to be technically biracial.

Also, some evidence seems to indicate that Nomad (chief tech to Aidan Pryde and Joanna during the Jade Phoenix trilogy) was also Black ("There was the usual sarcastic twinkle in Nomad's eyes, their color so pale they almost disappeared into the dark skin around them."; source), as was Star Commander Selima (one of the more prominant Elementals assigned to the Falcon Guards; "He was a tall, dark-skinned man with prominent cheekbones and a gentle mouth."/"He was not gruff or rude like so many Elementals, and seemed capable of serious thought, another contrast to most Elementals." - source)

And then, there is Tiaret, Victor Steiner-Davion's CSJ-bred Elemental bodyguard/bondswoman; "Her pale blue eyes seemed impossibly at odds with the dark skin that spoke of her Terran African ancestry, but that was not the first thing people noticed about her." (source)
Additionally, each of the major khans of CSJ - from Franklin Osis as the founding khan to Leo Showers who led the initial Clan Invasion to Lincoln Osis who presided over the Clan up to its annihilation at the hands of the Inner Sphere forces - has been portrayed as Black.
Though, the usual depiction of CSJ characters is such that they tend not to be terribly sympathy-inducing...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 25 November 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Odanan]

------------------------------------------
THE ULTIMATE FACTION TEST
------------------------------------------

You are at high-school, to which clique do you belong?

• Preps/Jocks = Davion
  
• Snobs/Riches = Steiner
  
• Athletes = Kurita
  
• Rebels/Skaters = Marik
  
• Nerds/Asian Immigrants = Liao
  
• Geeks/Christians = Comstar
  
• Indies = Rasalhague
  
• Poor/Burnouts = Periphery
  
• Criminals = Pirates

Edited by Odanan, 25 November 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Urdasein]

Quote

This is not meant to be offensive.

Go back to GTA.

[RichAC]

loupgaroupoilu, on 25 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Go back to GTA.

I actually play fps games like counterstrike, quake, and BF3..... I haven't owned a console since super nintendo. But it might be about time to buy one nowadays and make the switch again like all my friends and family have done years ago...

But ya i was thinking that maybe PGI can't really put an African language in any of the descriptions, because there is really no main language out of the 3000 that it has...

Edited by RichAC, 25 November 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 25 November 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

------------------------------------------
THE ULTIMATE FACTION TEST
------------------------------------------

You are at high-school, to which clique do you belong?

• Preps/Jocks = Davion
  
• Snobs/Riches = Steiner
  
• Athletes = Kurita
  
• Rebels/Skaters = Marik
  
• Nerds/Asian Immigrants = Liao
  
• Geeks/Christians = Comstar
  
• Indies = Rasalhague
  
• Poor/Burnouts = Periphery
  
• Criminals = Pirates

I'm Black, and from a solidly middle-class background.
I was a straight-laced but non-religious nerd/geek in high school (and middle school, and college).
I grew up on anime and manga (predominantly mecha) and sci-fi, and managed to become president of my HS anime club.
I didn't get into athletics/sports until college (where I took up fencing... and have stuck with it since).
I am neither preppy nor a jock.
My first proper MW game was MechWarrior II (though, EarthSiege was installed on I had during childhood, and was labeled as "BattleTech robots" in the DOS menu), and my first BT novel was Ghost of Winter (with the Jade Phoenix omnibus being the second).

And I still identify more strongly with the FedSuns than any other faction.

[Odanan]

Strum Wealh, on 25 November 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm Black, and from a solidly middle-class background.
I was a straight-laced but non-religious nerd/geek in high school (and middle school, and college).
I grew up on anime and manga (predominantly mecha) and sci-fi, and managed to become president of my HS anime club.
I didn't get into athletics/sports until college (where I took up fencing... and have stuck with it since).
I am neither preppy nor a jock.
My first proper MW game was MechWarrior II (though, EarthSiege was installed on I had during childhood, and was labeled as "BattleTech robots" in the DOS menu), and my first BT novel was Ghost of Winter (with the Jade Phoenix omnibus being the second).

And I still identify more strongly with the FedSuns than any other faction.

Very Davion in your own way...

[Victor Morson]

SpiralFace, on 25 November 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Keep in mind that Sarna is not offical cannon, although they reference it regularly.

Handbook: House Steiner, p. 82, "New Capetown Planet Profile"

Like Wikipedia, Sarna does provide citations for stuff.

Edited by Victor Morson, 25 November 2013 - 07:25 PM.

[joedawg39s]

http://www.sarna.net...Terran_Alliance

Quote

Yet it was the United States, possessing the most wealth and influence, and other wealthy and populous states who colonized the bulk of the most hospitable worlds closest to Terra. Colonists from poorer and weaker countries were forced to travel farther out from Terra, or settle marginally habitable worlds.^[4]

This kind of sums it up, the more wealthy countries colonise the best planets as people radiate out from earth so they still end up with the most infulince when the star leauge falls.

[Novakaine]

Strum Wealh, on 25 November 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'm Black, and from a solidly middle-class background.
I was a straight-laced but non-religious nerd/geek in high school (and middle school, and college).
I grew up on anime and manga (predominantly mecha) and sci-fi, and managed to become president of my HS anime club.
I didn't get into athletics/sports until college (where I took up fencing... and have stuck with it since).
I am neither preppy nor a jock.
My first proper MW game was MechWarrior II (though, EarthSiege was installed on I had during childhood, and was labeled as "BattleTech robots" in the DOS menu), and my first BT novel was Ghost of Winter (with the Jade Phoenix omnibus being the second).

And I still identify more strongly with the FedSuns than any other faction.

See told ya Davion is where the brothers hang out.
Word.

[PappySmurf]

This has to be Chuck Norris's long lost adopted brother Whacky Norris.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

In America Caucasian means White folk.....I don't know why, and I don't really care.

[Runs With Scissors]

Faction wise I've always thought that the FedSuns had a WW1 Germany kind of feel to them, and the Lyrans more like WW2 Russia (emphasis on mass production). A lot of people say the FWL is like America but it always seemed more like the EU to me. Comstar always seemed more like America, they are in every faction (like American military bases) and while they keep the other factions in balance they are constantly messing with them and no one really likes them. Heh, maybe the WOB is actually the South which did rise again!

[Archon Adam Steiner]

There really is no 'space America', saddening as that may be for American players.

The FWL may capture the melting-pot mythos, but central/southern-Europeans and Indian culture (as in from India the nation) dominate the FWL.

The Capellans blend Chinese, Russian, and some Celtic culture.

The Lyrans are solidly Teutonic (i.e. German/Austrian), with a significant Celtic contribution (Donegal and Skye District)

The Combine is almost universally Japanese, in culture if not in racial terms. They have a substantial Muslim sub-population.

The Federated Suns is rather German, like the Lyrans; 'Hans Davion' should be evidence enough of that, but their military tradition also resembles German lines, but ameliorated with British over-tones.

The closest 'American' thing one might find is the concept of the Periphery - it's effectively 'the wild west', but the cultures and nations from the periphery are, again, not American; the Taurians are mostly French, the Magistracy is of no particular extraction, the Marians are pseudo-Roman...

This is all stuff right out of Sarna/books/etc.

[Hyphon]

@Arrachtas: His name is Hanse not Hans!

But you are right Davion has some German influence. But Steiner more.

It's like the House of Windsor today in Great Britain. British royal house with distant German relations. (The last Emperor of Germany was the cousin of the British king in a higher grade)

Commenwealth = German, Gaelic, Spain, Portuguese
FedSun = British/French, South-/Middle-Americian cultures, Australia/New Zealand
FWL = Russian, America (After all FWL is a democracy, but with the war state since the fall of the SL, there was no real free elections, also like in modern Russia there is a lot corruption going on)
CapCon = Chinese, India, South-East Asian cultures (Korea, Vietnam)
DraCom = Feudal Japan, some influences of islamic traditions, on some planets more african Influence.
Periphery = Depends on. The Magistrat Canopus for e.x. is a matriachy. Some other factions are lying down in anarchy or are pirate kingdoms, some factions trying to life in democracy or in some exotic forms. That's the rest.
FRR = Scandinavia, Keltic, Viking.
Clans = Phew... I know the concept from Japanese mid-age culture (Warriors leading civilians), but I'm not sure about the original concept.

[Odanan]

PappySmurf, on 25 November 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

This has to be Chuck Norris's long lost adopted brother Whacky Norris.

Afro Samurai? It's you?

[Odanan]

Hyphon, on 25 November 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

FWL = Russian, America (After all FWL is a democracy, but with the war state since the fall of the SL, there was no real free elections,

I generally feel them more like Baltic (including Greek) + Indian/Pakistani + Mongolian + Hispanic-American.