297 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 09 December 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Nah, just run a test set like I did. Record your stats, run a bunch of games, record new stats, do the math. That's where my 87,250 number comes from. Well, that and a bit more math to compute out the Phoenix bonuses I got in 16 of the 30 matches.

But regardless, the real problem is that you don't seem to realize that you're really pretty good at this game. I've played with you once or twice in random drops. Neither of us is 1%-er good, but we don't suck. So I really don't think you can expect new players, or even average players, to be able to earn as fast as either of us does.

So as I said, New Alt, one hour of drops(4) just shy of 1/2 a mill. So around 2.8 Mill at the end of Boot. Enough to get us into a Locust, Commando, Spider(w/ECM), a Cheap Jenner or a Cheap Raven. Another short grind and Double sinks are bought, then Endo and bang competitive light mech.

I'll be seeing how long it will take to earn a D-DC or 733...

[El Bandito]

I have been playing this game for a long time. All I know is that yes the game did become stale to me, and yes, that is a big reason why I am not playing much (maybe 30 mins per day on average). However, another reason that my play time has decreased is due to C-Bill nerf. Getting the mechs I want has become harder all the while the game modes are staying exactly the same. Just can't stand the monotonous game becoming even more monotonous due to harder grind.

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

So as I said, New Alt, one hour of drops(4) just shy of 1/2 a mill. So around 2.8 Mill at the end of Boot. Enough to get us into a Locust, Commando, Spider(w/ECM), a Cheap Jenner or a Cheap Raven. Another short grind and Double sinks are bought, then Endo and bang competitive light mech.

I'll be seeing how long it will take to earn a D-DC or 733...

Can you guys STOP talking about how your alts are so damn successful? You are nothing like new players. Founders like us have over ONE THOUSAND hours of experience over them. Of course you are going to earn much faster than the average starters. The average starter won't even know about DHS or the difference between LBX and regular AC10.

This is just like how League of Legends Diamond level players do smurf accounts and then brag about their Penta-kills on newbies and how easy it is to climb the ladder.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 December 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 10 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I have been playing this game for a long time. All I know is that yes the game did become stale to me, and yes, that is a big reason why I am not playing much (maybe 30 mins per day on average). However, another reason that my play time has decreased is due to C-Bill nerf. Getting the mechs I want has become harder all the while the game modes are staying exactly the same. Just can't stand the monotonous game becoming even more monotonous due to harder grind.





Can you guys STOP talking about how your alts are so damn successful? YOu are nothing like new players. You have over ONE THOUSANDS hours of experience over them. Of course you are going to earn much faster than the average starters. The average starter won't even know about DHS or the difference between LBX and regular AC10.

You've been around as long as me El, shouldn't you pretty much already have (or had) nearly every Mech? I know when I look at my Pilot tree I have every Mech leveled with exception of Phoenix and a couple I just am not interested in.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

You've been around as long as me El, shouldn't you pretty much already have (or had) nearly every Mech? I know when I look at my Pilot tree I have every Mech leveled with exception of Phoenix and a couple I just am not interested in.

I am mostly interested in Assault mechs so I am satisfied with those. There are some heavies but only medium I got is a Shawk-2d2 and no lights. I am trying to save a bit more now the TB and BM are coming out but the grind is worse than ever.

Guess I just got bored of MWO early on.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 December 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 10 December 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

I am mostly interested in Assault mechs so I am satisfied with those. There are some heavies but only medium I got is a Shawk-2d2 and no lights. I am trying to save a bit more now the TB and BM are coming out but the grind is worse than ever.

Guess I just got bored of MWO early on.

Wrong perspective I think. You didn't get bore so much as the game has not changed enough to remain exciting.

[Blurry]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

So as I said, New Alt, one hour of drops(4) just shy of 1/2 a mill. So around 2.8 Mill at the end of Boot. Enough to get us into a Locust, Commando, Spider(w/ECM), a Cheap Jenner or a Cheap Raven. Another short grind and Double sinks are bought, then Endo and bang competitive light mech.

I'll be seeing how long it will take to earn a D-DC or 733...

It is wonderful that you all are great and epic players and you already have the fat loot and accumulated everything so you have ventured into the they dont deserve anything mode now. But what about the health of game?
That is the point right to keep everyone else from attaining your status - god forbid they actually start to catch up.

Or you know that they dont have 10,000 hrs and dont drop in premades that hang back and let the pugs eat it and go in for the kill and the cbills. You know the pugs that make the game work? but dont earn anything.
Forget about them right. who cares just as longs as they cant buy 1 more mech than you right?

Edited by Blurry, 10 December 2013 - 08:07 AM.

[Sandpit]

Blurry, on 10 December 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

It is wonderful that you all are great and epic players and you already have the fat loot and accumulated everything so you have ventured into the they dont deserve anything mode now. But what about the health of game?
That is the point right to keep everyone else from attaining your status - god forbid they actually start to catch up.

Or you know that they dont have 10,000 hrs and dont drop in premades that hang back and let the pugs eat it and go in for the kill and the cbills. You know the pugs that make the game work? but dont earn anything.
Forget about them right. who cares just as longs as they cant buy 1 more mech than you right?

Oh lordy lordy! The downtrodden masses must rise up and seize the power from the man!

let's put this into perspective first. It's a video game, not a civil rights movement.

Secondly, if a player can earn that much in a cadet bonus as a new player then EVERY player can earn that much. That means it's not an economic issue. The issues brought up about "not knowing about DHS, LBX, etc., are NOT economic issues. They are new player tutorial, steep learning curve, and poor information disbursements. They ahve absolutely nothing to do with the economy.
The sooner you understand that, the sooner you can kick PGI in the shin for doing such a horrid job of easing new players into a game with such a steep learning curve. Want to solve the real underlying problem? Makes posts about how new players are dumped into a game with almost zero information on how the game works.

[Joseph Mallan]

Blurry, on 10 December 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

It is wonderful that you all are great and epic players and you already have the fat loot and accumulated everything so you have ventured into the they dont deserve anything mode now. But what about the health of game?
That is the point right to keep everyone else from attaining your status - god forbid they actually start to catch up.

Or you know that they dont have 10,000 hrs and dont drop in premades that hang back and let the pugs eat it and go in for the kill and the cbills. You know the pugs that make the game work? but dont earn anything.
Forget about them right. who cares just as longs as they cant buy 1 more mech than you right?

Funny, I thought I was looking into that. Many are saying the player income is to low now. So I have a new Account, spending no money, seeing how well my usually average performance fares at making money. I have played 3 other Alts to grind Elo and see how it worked, I found it to be variable depending on how I chose my Rides. My primary Alt is PUG only and no a dime spent on purchases after late March. I drop probably 80% PUG as it stands right now. I will let everyone know how this new PUG Alt does at making money, that is the point of playing it. As to buying Mechs I have 3. Each of my Alts have 2. No two Alts have the same mechs, so you can drop the self righteous act. I on't buy it.

Oh the Alt has 3W/1L and 1K/4D... I am so OP as a new account!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 December 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Roadkill]

Sandpit, on 09 December 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

I just don't agree with you. It's just not my opinion on the economy.

Fair enough.

Quote

Those hardcore type players with millions to spare WILL get bored once they've bought everything there is to buy.

Except that they're not. If they're racking up hundreds of millions of c-bills, they've clearly bought everything that they want to buy. And yet they're still playing. So your hypothesis is flawed.

Quote

If you average 60k (which in my experience is very low and poorly played game and doesn't include the cadet bonus) a match and you get in about 8 matches an hour that's 480k/hour.

I agree that 60k is low. I'd even say that 80k is probably low, so let's adjust your estimate up to at least that level. We want to paint a picture of an average player, not a scrub.

However, 8 games per hour isn't really possible unless you're deliberately just grinding for c-bills by exiting each match as soon as you die, switching to another Mech, and immediately launching another game. If you're playing each match in full (and watching your teammates after you die), you'll get maybe 5 matches per hour. Less if you do anything between matches. But let's go with 5.

5 matches * 80k/match is 400k/hour. That's only 8 million c-bills in 20 hours, and I suspect that's a pretty accurate picture of an average player. It may be "bad" from the point of view of a forum poster with 5000+ matches, but it's probably "good" from the point of view of a newbie.

Quote

If you can't get in 20 hours of play within 2-3 weeks well then no offense to those players but an entire economy cannot be balanced for them. That's less than an hour a day.

That last sentence is telling. You're making the automatic assumption that everyone can play every day, which simply isn't true. I'd wager that most players only play 2-3 times per week, but I'd love to be proven wrong about that. (Sadly PGI isn't very forthcoming with player stats.)

But we're at least getting somewhere.

You seem to think that I'm proposing major changes. I'm not. I think we only need a small adjustment to the economy. A 15% increase in base earnings isn't huge... it's not even all the way back to the 8v8 level if you believe the 20-30% nerf that people have been claiming.

Or as I said before, double the Premium bonus to 100%. This is probably the better fix from PGI's point of view because it will encourage people to buy Premium time. And isn't that what they want? If someone is paying the "subscription fee" shouldn't money be pretty much a non-issue for them?

I don't think that an average player should be able to easily buy and customize an Atlas on a completely free account. But they should be able to do either one easily if they pay MC for the other. I don't think the current economy allows that (remember: easily) for an average player. It's still pretty grindy. I feel like an average player with a Premium account should be able to buy and customize an Atlas, without much trouble at all, just by playing. At 600k/hour (400k from above + 50%), that just doesn't seem easy to me. 12-15 million still takes 20-25 hours, which might be a month, and that seems awfully grindy for someone who's paying the subscription fee.

And actually, I realized something last night. I keep saying average, but what I really mean is median. The average (mean, not median) is distorted by those ultra-high end players who have hundreds of millions of c-bills in the bank. The median player more accurately reflects the needed economy.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

So I have a new Account, spending no money, seeing how well my usually average performance fares at making money.

Joe, what's it going to take to make you understand that you're not average?

You're way above average. Seriously. I believe that I'm above average, and you're clearly better than me (at least at earning money).

I ran another little test last night. It was only 6 games, so take it with a grain of salt. But I concentrated on getting as many assists as possible and doing what I could to rack up easy c-bill bonuses. Average kills+assists for those games was 10, including one 0 kill 11 assist game with 660-ish damage. Ran out of dakka dakka - all 450 rounds of it - in that one.

Instead of the 87,250 that I earned during my larger test, I averaged 95k for these 6 games. But it actually took quite a bit of effort on my part and made the games feel more like work than play. Sure, it resulted in a ~9% increase in earnings, but it wasn't nearly as much fun and that's what makes the current economy feel so grindy.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 10 December 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Joe, what's it going to take to make you understand that you're not average?

You're way above average. Seriously. I believe that I'm above average, and you're clearly better than me (at least at earning money).

I ran another little test last night. It was only 6 games, so take it with a grain of salt. But I concentrated on getting as many assists as possible and doing what I could to rack up easy c-bill bonuses. Average kills+assists for those games was 10, including one 0 kill 11 assist game with 660-ish damage. Ran out of dakka dakka - all 450 rounds of it - in that one.

Instead of the 87,250 that I earned during my larger test, I averaged 95k for these 6 games. But it actually took quite a bit of effort on my part and made the games feel more like work than play. Sure, it resulted in a ~9% increase in earnings, but it wasn't nearly as much fun and that's what makes the current economy feel so grindy.

I really cannot see how I am above average I have died in half of my matches to date, My K/D is a 1.25, In 4 drops on my new Alt I have made 470K thanks to the team carrying me to 3W/1L an Me running up a 1K/4 Deaths. I am in the boot bonus drops so that is a big perk, but that will be over soon.

11 Assists!?! I have never wracked that many Assists, I average >300 damage, and on a win with 4< assists I make 120K+ so somehow with that many assists you lost? 11 * 6500 is 71,000 C-bills... We get how much for a win? There is something wrong with your numbers! if that is the case.

[Sandpit]

Roadkill, on 10 December 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Fair enough.

Except that they're not. If they're racking up hundreds of millions of c-bills, they've clearly bought everything that they want to buy. And yet they're still playing. So your hypothesis is flawed.


I agree that 60k is low. I'd even say that 80k is probably low, so let's adjust your estimate up to at least that level. We want to paint a picture of an average player, not a scrub.

However, 8 games per hour isn't really possible unless you're deliberately just grinding for c-bills by exiting each match as soon as you die, switching to another Mech, and immediately launching another game. If you're playing each match in full (and watching your teammates after you die), you'll get maybe 5 matches per hour. Less if you do anything between matches. But let's go with 5.

5 matches * 80k/match is 400k/hour. That's only 8 million c-bills in 20 hours, and I suspect that's a pretty accurate picture of an average player. It may be "bad" from the point of view of a forum poster with 5000+ matches, but it's probably "good" from the point of view of a newbie.


That last sentence is telling. You're making the automatic assumption that everyone can play every day, which simply isn't true. I'd wager that most players only play 2-3 times per week, but I'd love to be proven wrong about that. (Sadly PGI isn't very forthcoming with player stats.)

But we're at least getting somewhere.

You seem to think that I'm proposing major changes. I'm not. I think we only need a small adjustment to the economy. A 15% increase in base earnings isn't huge... it's not even all the way back to the 8v8 level if you believe the 20-30% nerf that people have been claiming.

Or as I said before, double the Premium bonus to 100%. This is probably the better fix from PGI's point of view because it will encourage people to buy Premium time. And isn't that what they want? If someone is paying the "subscription fee" shouldn't money be pretty much a non-issue for them?

I don't think that an average player should be able to easily buy and customize an Atlas on a completely free account. But they should be able to do either one easily if they pay MC for the other. I don't think the current economy allows that (remember: easily) for an average player. It's still pretty grindy. I feel like an average player with a Premium account should be able to buy and customize an Atlas, without much trouble at all, just by playing. At 600k/hour (400k from above + 50%), that just doesn't seem easy to me. 12-15 million still takes 20-25 hours, which might be a month, and that seems awfully grindy for someone who's paying the subscription fee.

And actually, I realized something last night. I keep saying average, but what I really mean is median. The average (mean, not median) is distorted by those ultra-high end players who have hundreds of millions of c-bills in the bank. The median player more accurately reflects the needed economy.

My statement about an hour/day is an average of the numbers. not a matter of dictating how much a player should have to invest per day. in your example you earned 8 million. 8 milliion is enough to buy just about any mech in the game that you want. Will it be completely customized at the end of the 20 hours? Maybe, maybe not, depending on what you purchase with that 8 million. Another 4-5 hours and you CAN completely customize that mech though. so let's say 25 hours for a completely customized mech up to assault class. Again, to me that's just not much of a grind.
Some of my statements may sound a bit harsh but there HAS to be a cut-off point where you say, "Ok, we've buffed and nerfed everything that we can in order to attract and retain new players, but we've also kept things intact and challneging enough to retain our long-term crowd." A lot of us are just tired of hearing how "hard" it is to play this game. There are TONS of options for new players to not be stuck in a crappy commando for 40 hours.
Pay money
Trial mechs
Start off with a nice customized medium right after cadet bonus
Invest some extra time
Pay money

There's absolutely nothing that restricts players from advancing faster if they choose to. They can invest more time OR money OR settle on something a little smaller than that Atlas DDC completely customized for their first ride.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

I really cannot see how I am above average I have died in half of my matches to date, My K/D is a 1.25, In 4 drops on my new Alt I have made 470K thanks to the team carrying me to 3W/1L an Me running up a 1K/4 Deaths. I am in the boot bonus drops so that is a big perk, but that will be over soon.

11 Assists!?! I have never wracked that many Assists, I average >300 damage, and on a win with 4< assists I make 120K+ so somehow with that many assists you lost? 11 * 6500 is 71,000 C-bills... We get how much for a win? There is something wrong with your numbers! if that is the case.

Clearly... one of two paradigms are present: a.) You are humble to a fault and do not appreciate your gamesmanship in contrast to the unwashed masses. or b.) Your Elo has lulled you into a false sense of mediocrity.

There's also c.) that precludes you're addled and senile but I consider you a friend and I have no room to judge considering I'm equally delusional and detached from reality.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 10 December 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Clearly... one of two paradigms are present: a.) You are humble to a fault and do not appreciate your gamesmanship in contrast to the unwashed masses.

I have rarely been accused of being humble!

Quote

or b.) Your Elo has lulled you into a false sense of mediocrity.

4 separate accounts with different degrees of success depending on the limits I played under, the two least restricted Joe and Anton have near identical percentages one PUG one Team account

Quote

There's also c.) that precludes you're addled and senile but I consider you a friend and I have no room to judge considering I'm equally delusional and detached from reality.

I am closing on 48 years... was that a Goldfish?

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have rarely been accused of being humble!

4 separate accounts with different degrees of success depending on the limits I played under, the two least restricted Joe and Anton have near identical percentages one PUG one Team account

I am closing on 48 years... was that a Goldfish?

GOLDFISH!? You too eh?...

It's always those damn Goldfish! There are watching me.... They are everywhere.

[3rdworld]

Keeping C-bills low is silly.

More mechs bought means more MC mechbays, means more patterns more colors, I would bet that people that own a std version of the chassis are also more likely to buy the Hero Mech.

Sure you don't want them to be meaningless, but making the grind even considered a grind doesn't make much sense considering PGIs business model.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 10 December 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

GOLDFISH!? You too eh?...

It's always those damn Goldfish! There are watching me.... They are everywhere.

Goldfish was introdued to me back in my HeavyMealPro days. I have fond (short term) Memories(lost) of thread after thread devolving to Goldfish!

[Almond Brown]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Comparing an experienced player like yourself to the average players (usually newcomers) is not fair, don't you think?

Newbies who are in non-elited mechs and are usually the first to die has every right to say the game progression is steep since they most probably earn 50-60K per match. That's discouraging. Customizations are also cost-prohibitive due to ranging from 250-750K.

Then the solution is easy. Increase the Cadet time frame to 50 games, 25 million C-Bills, provide every Noob the Atlas they so desire, but could not win in, even if their real lives were on the line, and see how that goes.

If you can't be arsed climb the Apple Tree, knowing full well the best Apples are at the Top, you should just settle for the low hanging fruit and not pine for that which you don't really care enough about to do what it takes to achieve.

Sounds like someone who cries "Poor" but would never take a job or work at McDonald's as it is beneath them. Go figure.

Edited by Almond Brown, 10 December 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 08 December 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Comparing an experienced player like yourself to the average players (usually newcomers) is not fair, don't you think?

Newbies who are in non-elited mechs and are usually the first to die has every right to say the game progression is steep since they most probably earn 50-60K per match. That's discouraging. Customizations are also cost-prohibitive due to ranging from 250-750K.

I will disagree with this as I am normally dead somewhere between 4-6 minutes into a match! US Marine First to Land, First to Die! Oh Rah!

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 December 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I will disagree with this as I am normally dead somewhere between 4-6 minutes into a match! US Marine First to Land, First to Die! Oh Rah!

Post your KDR on your main. Let's see if your words and deeds match. I just can't grasp this idea that someone is so willing to die early on.

Almond Brown, on 10 December 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Then the solution is easy. Increase the Cadet time frame to 50 games, 25 million C-Bills, provide every Noob the Atlas they so desire, but could not win in, even if their real lives were on the line, and see how that goes.

If you can't be arsed climb the Apple Tree, knowing full well the best Apples are at the Top, you should just settle for the low hanging fruit and not pine for that which you don't really care enough about to do what it takes to achieve.

Sounds like someone who cries "Poor" but would never take a job or work at McDonald's as it is beneath them. Go figure.

At least with a free Atlas, newbies can contribute to the team by taking some shots. I started my Founder's account with an Atlas-D and that really helped me to earn some money. Not to mention the Atlas-D comes with a nice set of varied weaponry that can help the newbies settle in. If they don't like the old death's head, they can sell it, for some quick bucks--for mechs they are more comfy with.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 December 2013 - 11:52 AM.