172 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Wasnt directly aimed at you bro, you make some very valid points.

That's fine. Please just don't refer to me as "bro".

<sound of whip cracking> Now get down on you hands and knees and kiss Mistress Mystere's boots! <sound of whip cracking>

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Really point im trying to make is, unless the Devs make much ( and i mean much) larger maps, tactical play isnt really possible, it will always be an Arena match game.

Tactical play is still possible. It's just of a different nature. Also, I think what you are probably referring to is more likely "strategy". But, you need more than just big maps. You will also need regiments of Mechwarriors. But that would be something really nice that I think I will never get.

[Kjudoon]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

Time is on the vets side mate, he is here for the long haul, the newer casual player who cannot respond, will soon tire of the steel rain and look for greener pasture. New player retention has to be considered i think, pricing them out of certain features i think wont help.

then we encourage everyone to use Arty all match ever match, or we nerf the functionality again, price it more to its value, or find a another solution to end its abuse?

[Mystere]

Kjudoon, on 05 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

then we encourage everyone to use Arty all match ever match, or we nerf the functionality again, price it more to its value, or find a another solution to end its abuse?

What you call "abuse" I call "team play" and "coordination".

[N0MAD]

Kjudoon, on 05 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

then we encourage everyone to use Arty all match ever match, or we nerf the functionality again, price it more to its value, or find a another solution to end its abuse?

Im sure there is some solution, i agree that it is overused. Someone smarter than i, im sure has a reasonable solution.
To me ( just opinion) price isnt it, but hey i told you im not real clever, just look at at how i handled Mystere... says it all.

[Shadey99]

N0MAD, on 05 December 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

Im sure there is some solution, i agree that it is overused.

Personally I'd prefer a gameplay requirement rather than a fee for artillery usage. Such as something on a map that needed to be captured/held to use it (Like an actual modeled artillery battery). You could also require a TAG system to 'mark' a location to be targeted so only TAG equipped mechs could call arty strikes. I tend to like this approach as it gives us more objectives within a map.

Another option would be that a team would have to acquire points or some other 'resource' to use it within a map. Possibly one could exchange gamescore for arty usage as an example or actual points in conquest. This idea comes from RTS games and can be very effective.

[Mystere]

Shadey99, on 05 December 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

You could also require a TAG system to 'mark' a location to be targeted so only TAG equipped mechs could call arty strikes.

So far, this is the only suggestion I have liked. It does not call for a nerf and actually makes you think of what equipment to bring. It is so much better than someone who is of the "I got killed by XXX, nerf XXX NAO!" type.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 05 December 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

then we encourage everyone to use Arty all match ever match, or we nerf the functionality again, price it more to its value, or find a another solution to end its abuse?

I haven't fired a single arty shell nor called of air support, I got pummeled by Arty once. After that I learned that colored smoke is bad and I keep an eye out for it.

So if a new player can't learn to look for smoke, he deserves to walk away from the game.

[Victor Morson]

Don't worry, I'm here to help!



That's so you won't drown in the river of tears!

...

We can't have mechanics that punish people for being static or force them to figure out how to regroup on their own! The horror!

[ClaymoreReIIik]

There has been plenty of explanation of the OPs post and other posters that randomness in a game is a problem.

The artillery and airstrikes needed to do more then 10 damage a shell. Thats absolutely true. They do not need to headshot a fully armored cockpit though.

The way the hits are calculated is totally fine. That way actually makes certain that its very rare that 2 shells of one volley hit the same location on a mech. The shells should do no more then 25 damage though.

The reason is "frustration potential". THIS IS NOT WAR. This is a game! Unlike war, you can and will turn this thing off, if it annoys you. I am sure there is people out there that take a hit from an artillery strike, lose half their armor and get pissed. The number of those is far smaller then the people who get pissed because they took one single hit from the artillery strike and have to spend the rest of the next 10 minutes watching their team play.

I have been using artillery when they did 10 damage and I liked the dimension they added to the game. I really think they need to be good and viable. There is a difference between viable and must have though and letting them headshot people crossed that line by a lot. I think 25 damage is viable and 40 is overpowered.

If you play "competitive" 12 vs 12 in leagues you will not see a single mech on the field that does not either have an artillery or an airstrike or both. Thats a problem right there. If EVERYONE has to use it to retain any chance of winning, the item is not a good part of the game.

As far as the spawnpoints go, I think this thread has a communication problem between the guys talking pro and the guys talking con.

I think we all agree that having smaller fights instead of blobwars is more fun. I think we all agree that fighting on different places of the maps is more fun.

You must agree though that the randomness of the "mech type" placement leads to more "lopsided matches" then before.

Before the spawn point changes you were at mercy of a horribly implemented matchmaker. Now you are at mercy of a horribly implemented matchmaker paired with the randomness of the new spawns leading to a lot of games where you play your best and still lose because you did not have a chance of winning to begin with.

Having seperate spawning locations for the lances is a good thing, in my opinion. Having the placement and lance composition being random is horrible though and amplifies the problems the matchmaker has by a lot.

I agree with the original poster in all of the points he made and hope that even the people who are "pro new changes" understand why I feel that way and can respond to the points I made, not to the fact that I am "against".

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 06 December 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

There has been plenty of explanation of the OPs post and other posters that randomness in a game is a problem.

The artillery and airstrikes needed to do more then 10 damage a shell. Thats absolutely true. They do not need to headshot a fully armored cockpit though.

The way the hits are calculated is totally fine. That way actually makes certain that its very rare that 2 shells of one volley hit the same location on a mech. The shells should do no more then 25 damage though.

The reason is "frustration potential". THIS IS NOT WAR. This is a game! Unlike war, you can and will turn this thing off, if it annoys you. I am sure there is people out there that take a hit from an artillery strike, lose half their armor and get pissed. The number of those is far smaller then the people who get pissed because they took one single hit from the artillery strike and have to spend the rest of the next 10 minutes watching their team play.

I have been using artillery when they did 10 damage and I liked the dimension they added to the game. I really think they need to be good and viable. There is a difference between viable and must have though and letting them headshot people crossed that line by a lot. I think 25 damage is viable and 40 is overpowered.

If you play "competitive" 12 vs 12 in leagues you will not see a single mech on the field that does not either have an artillery or an airstrike or both. Thats a problem right there. If EVERYONE has to use it to retain any chance of winning, the item is not a good part of the game.

As far as the spawnpoints go, I think this thread has a communication problem between the guys talking pro and the guys talking con.

I think we all agree that having smaller fights instead of blobwars is more fun. I think we all agree that fighting on different places of the maps is more fun.

You must agree though that the randomness of the "mech type" placement leads to more "lopsided matches" then before.

Before the spawn point changes you were at mercy of a horribly implemented matchmaker. Now you are at mercy of a horribly implemented matchmaker paired with the randomness of the new spawns leading to a lot of games where you play your best and still lose because you did not have a chance of winning to begin with.

Having seperate spawning locations for the lances is a good thing, in my opinion. Having the placement and lance composition being random is horrible though and amplifies the problems the matchmaker has by a lot.

I agree with the original poster in all of the points he made and hope that even the people who are "pro new changes" understand why I feel that way and can respond to the points I made, not the overally fact that I am "against".

the two cannot be mutually exclusive. Artillery can kill you! Artillery should be able to kill you. If you are foolish enough to stare at the pretty smoke in your window, everything is working as intended. To date, I have died to Artillery... Once! I'm Old, Slow and I drive an Atlas usually. If you cannot learn to get away from the smoke... well you may be playing the wrong game.

[Yorinaga]

I actually do like the arty strikes and the new spawns. The damage of the arty/air strikes is now fine aswell. The amount though is my problem. We were using at least 6 in our last 12 man drops. I think the amount should be restricted to one arty/air strike per lance. Making a total of 3 per game on both sides.

I don't see any problem with the spawn points in 12 man drops. There is always the opportunity to form up on a safe location be4 dividing again into the appropriate lances or teams.

[Shadey99]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

the two cannot be mutually exclusive. Artillery can kill you! Artillery should be able to kill you. If you are foolish enough to stare at the pretty smoke in your window, everything is working as intended. To date, I have died to Artillery... Once! I'm Old, Slow and I drive an Atlas usually. If you cannot learn to get away from the smoke... well you may be playing the wrong game.

I think we need to be more realistic here. Most people don't stare at the smoke. Heck the only times I get hit by it is when the smoke is behind me or otherwise out of my line of sight. Though I'm sure voice comms (or those pesky non implemented quick orders) would help as other people could warn you about it even if you could not see it, but I PUG exclusively so that's not even an option.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

the two cannot be mutually exclusive. Artillery can kill you! Artillery should be able to kill you. If you are foolish enough to stare at the pretty smoke in your window, everything is working as intended. To date, I have died to Artillery... Once! I'm Old, Slow and I drive an Atlas usually. If you cannot learn to get away from the smoke... well you may be playing the wrong game.

Are you playing 12vs12 premades? Because if you do and you never have games that evolve into red smoke popping up every 10 seconds....what timezone do you play in?

Its one thing to have the occasional airstrike/artillery strike in PuG games and another thing to have a 12vs12 where both sides press the button the second the cooldown finishes...

It is true that in "war" artillery can and will kill you. Its a totally other thing wether in a "game" where you play a big stompy robot, it should kill you randomly.

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 06 December 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Are you playing 12vs12 premades? Because if you do and you never have games that evolve into red smoke popping up every 10 seconds....what timezone do you play in?

Its one thing to have the occasional airstrike/artillery strike in PuG games and another thing to have a 12vs12 where both sides press the button the second the cooldown finishes...

It is true that in "war" artillery can and will kill you. Its a totally other thing if in a game where you play a big stompy robot, it should kill you randomly.

I PUG or 4 man, most Lawmen are off killing Jedi.

You are playing a Giant Stompy Robot War Machine, Artillery kills lots of stuff in War and should have the same ability in a game with Giant War Machines. Considering the history of the Minnesota tribe, You should have no problem with the use f more powerful weapons. After all they Invented the improved PPC that gave them such an Edge over their fellow Clans! Do you remember what their brothers and sisters did to them? Was it Fair?

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

I PUG or 4 man, most Lawmen are off killing Jedi.

You are playing a Giant Stompy Robot War Machine, Artillery kills lots of stuff in War and should have the same ability in a game with Giant War Machines. Considering the history of the Minnesota tribe, You should have no problem with the use f more powerful weapons. After all they Invented the improved PPC that gave them such an Edge over their fellow Clans! Do you remember what their brothers and sisters did to them? Was it Fair?

I have no issues with the use of powerfull weapons or invention or generally the concepts behind uneven powers.

I do however have a problem with the fact that during EU prime time on most weekdays you get failed to find match from the matchmaker because this game is constantly losing players faster then it gains new ones (during EU times).

The main reason you get when you ask someone why they are quitting is "the game is not much fun any more". Many german units have lost more players then they gained since this game went into open beta.

If you are stating that its fun for you to press launch and then get matched with people running trial mechs against a team that gets the better spawn distribution and rapes half your team within the first 120 seconds of the game....do you enjoy having a door slammed with your hand in between the door and the frame?

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 06 December 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I have no issues with the use of powerfull weapons or invention or generally the concepts behind uneven powers.

I do however have a problem with the fact that during EU prime time on most weekdays you get failed to find match from the matchmaker because this game is constantly losing players faster then it gains new ones (during EU times).

The main reason you get when you ask someone why they are quitting is "the game is not much fun any more". Many german units have lost more players then they gained since this game went into open beta.

If you are stating that its fun for you to press launch and then get matched with people running trial mechs against a team that gets the better spawn distribution and rapes half your team within the first 120 seconds of the game....do you enjoy having a door slammed with your hand in between the door and the frame?

What is EU Prime time? I am -5 hours and drop any time after 4PM for me...

As to your door question... Do I get a chance to do the same to them? As a beginning martial artist I regularly sought out the best fighters, You don't learn if you don't challenge yourself. You need to look for smoke Situational Awareness is a part of playing a combat game. You make a dumb mistake (run into smoke) you suck it up and accept the death. I have died 2,163 times... don't see me complaining about Unfair!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 December 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

What is EU Prime time? I am -5 hours and drop any time after 4PM for me...

As to your door question... Do I get a chance to do the same to them? As a beginning martial artist I regularly sought out the best fighters, You don't learn if you don't challenge yourself. You need to look for smoke Situational Awareness is a part of playing a combat game. You make a dumb mistake (run into smoke) you suck it up and accept the death. I have died 2,163 times... don't see me complaining about Unfair!!!

The point is not wether its unfair or not. Since both sides can possibly field the same Modules/Weapons/Mechs nothing is unfair.

The point is that the "off map Damage Dealer Modules" (Airstrike and Artillery Strike) have effects that take away from the fun of the game. Its not the fact that they deal damage. Its the fact that ocassionally, you get one-shotted. Not when you make a decision to give up head armor for more free tonnage, or when you do not pay attention.

Ever stood on a capture point and have a guy plant an Artillery Strike onto the antenna of the "oil rig"? Little hint: you CAN NOT see the smoke plume at all, since its above your field of vision.

Generally thats a "cudos to the shooter" kind of thing. Would be if the artillery Strike would deal 25 Damage, mess up your entire armor and leave you with a cabrio thats one headshot away from death.

Right now if your unlucky its just game over for you. If you say now "then have a teammate watch the cap point for you so that does not happen". Thats not talking about situational awareness any more. Thats about teamwork. Teamwork can overcome a lot of things, but if teamwork is the only answer to a module and the teams are randomly made....

Then you having fun is totally up to a "more or less" random matchmaker...

I am one of those resilient types of players who still play this and do not mind too much wether or not a game goes south because of my PuG team playing terrible. I have seen too many unit-members quit because of bad game-design, to defend bad game-design when I see it, though.

I would consider prime time between 6pm and 11pm CET every day. That is when the kids have done their homework and the grown ups are done working. Try getting a 12vs12 during those times. Its more then 40% "failed to find match".

Edited by ClaymoreReIIik, 06 December 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

The point is not wether its unfair or not. Since both sides can possibly field the same Modules/Weapons/Mechs nothing is unfair.

The point is that the "off map Damage Dealer Modules" (Airstrike and Artillery Strike) have effects that take away from the fun of the game. Its not the fact that they deal damage. Its the fact that ocassionally, you get one-shotted. Not when you make a decision to give up head armor for more free tonnage, or when you do not pay attention.

First off I don't have a problem with one shot kills. Occasional Head Caps due to Off Board artillery is perfectly fine. Consistent would be bad. Its a combat game, and people die in combat, sometimes they die in a blink.

Quote

Ever stood on a capture point and have a guy plant an Artillery Strike onto the antenna of the "oil rig"? Little hint: you CAN NOT see the smoke plume at all, since its above your field of vision.

Then score one for the the spotter, He earned his bag f gold for that!

Quote

Generally thats a "cudos to the shooter" kind of thing. Would be if the artillery Strike would deal 25 Damage, mess up your entire armor and leave you with a cabrio thats one headshot away from death.

Bad things happen when you are fighting, bad things should sill happen even if playing a combat game. I am not sympathetic on this topic.

Quote

Right now if your unlucky its just game over for you. If you say now "then have a teammate watch the cap point for you so that does not happen". Thats not talking about situational awareness any more. Thats about teamwork. Teamwork can overcome a lot of things, but if teamwork is the only answer to a module and the teams are randomly made....

I play many games where I die in less than 3 minutes, Artillery is supposed to be feared, why should I be scared if its not allowed to kill me? And Team mates have called smoke.

Quote

Then you having fun is totally up to a "more or less" random matchmaker...

Nope. Having fun is totally up to you. I can have something fun in a 0-12 Stomp as easily as I can in a 12-9 win.

Quote

I am one of those resilient types of players who still play this and do not mind too much wether or not a game goes south because of my PuG team playing terrible. I have seen too many unit-members quit because of bad game-design, to defend bad game-design when I see it, though.

Bad game design to is not the same to me.

Quote

I would consider prime time between 6pm and 11pm CET every day. That is when the kids have done their homework and the grown ups are done working. Try getting a 12vs12 during those times. Its more then 40% "failed to find match".

+1UTC(6 hour difference)... We will probably never meet up unless we both pull allnighters!

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

First off I don't have a problem with one shot kills. Occasional Head Caps due to Off Board artillery is perfectly fine. Consistent would be bad. Its a combat game, and people die in combat, sometimes they die in a blink.

Then score one for the the spotter, He earned his bag f gold for that!

Bad things happen when you are fighting, bad things should sill happen even if playing a combat game. I am not sympathetic on this topic.

I play many games where I die in less than 3 minutes, Artillery is supposed to be feared, why should I be scared if its not allowed to kill me? And Team mates have called smoke.

Nope. Having fun is totally up to you. I can have something fun in a 0-12 Stomp as easily as I can in a 12-9 win.

Bad game design to is not the same to me.

+1UTC(6 hour difference)... We will probably never meet up unless we both pull allnighters!

The main point that distinguishes MWO and Battletech from many other war games is the fact that a fight usually consists of several stages and is taking its time.

You get to cycle through your weapons reload timer a couple of times in a 1on1 situation. A lot of other shooter games end 1vs1 encounters in under 3 seconds.

If you have a crowd that enjoys having to aim for the same spot over and over again, if you have a crowd that likes to have the option to either go for the kill or the weapons, thats want to be able to defend by turning fresh armor towards the enemy...then putting "random kill artillery" in may not be bad game design per definition.

It might still be design thats not for your target audience. It might even be design thats against the will of your target audience.

If you put in spawn positions that are random and yet have maps that are so unforgiving if you end up in the wrong position, then that might not be bad game design per definition.

It might still be design thats frustrating a lot of people in a very short time. It might even be design that broke something that did not need fixing in the first place...or did you ever once see a player that complained that his team was all starting in the same place? I sure did not.

[Joseph Mallan]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 06 December 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

The main point that distinguishes MWO and Battletech from many other war games is the fact that a fight usually consists of several stages and is taking its time.

You get to cycle through your weapons reload timer a couple of times in a 1on1 situation. A lot of other shooter games end 1vs1 encounters in under 3 seconds.

If you have a crowd that enjoys having to aim for the same spot over and over again, if you have a crowd that likes to have the option to either go for the kill or the weapons, thats want to be able to defend by turning fresh armor towards the enemy...then putting "random kill artillery" in may not be bad game design per definition.

It might still be design thats not for your target audience. It might even be design thats against the will of your target audience.

If you put in spawn positions that are random and yet have maps that are so unforgiving if you end up in the wrong position, then that might not be bad game design per definition.

It might still be design thats frustrating a lot of people in a very short time. It might even be design that broke something that did not need fixing in the first place...or did you ever once see a player that complained that his team was all starting in the same place? I sure did not.

Problem is the game needs to get more than just one target auience. I have played nearly every version of the BattleTech Universe. There is no more problem with dying to a Arty strike as there is to a Sniper putting a round in our cockpit. Result is still the same. If players of a combat game have a problem with how they die, they should not play combat games. Only way I'd see a problem is if it happens every game with just one Arty shell every time. That is broken... or really really sucky luck!