362 replies to this topic

[LastPaladin]

Darth Bane001, on 18 December 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

I've seen awesome's run at 80 kph I think it's called, but it had very little armor. Decent weaponry though but got pretty hot.

Awesomes are a bad example, because they are just a poor mech. You almost have to max the engines in a Pretty Baby or 9M, because moving fast is your only chance to stay alive with those hitboxes

[Madara Uchiha]

Hmmm. Yeah no, and no.

[Doctor Proctor]

LastPaladin, on 18 December 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yeah, sure. Show me a medium with a 66 point alpha and 39% heat efficiency. Even by your own math 75% of one medium + 75% of another = 150% of a medium.

Huh? That was sarcasm there... Another poster was claiming that an Assault with a large standard engine, such as a STD350 would be bringing the firepower of a Medium mech to the fight. Then someone responded with a DDC running 2ML, AC/20 and 3ASRM6 with ECM, which is waaaaaay more than a Medium could ever bring to a fight.

LastPaladin, on 18 December 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Also, notice he is carrying 4 tons of uncased torso ammo, which sort of negates the benefits of running a standard engine while trying to crit seek other mechs xD

Hence why I said that the D Atlas posted might do okay on cleanup duty against the DDC, because it doesn't seem like it's really the best build. You have 80+ torso armor to chew through with rather inaccurate weapons before you can put those LBX-10 to use seeking crits, against a DDC with ECM (which unless at close range will prevent you from knowing which panels are exposed) that has better pinpoint accuracy (The Artemis keeps the SRM's spread tighter, and the AC/20 puts all the damage in one panel instead of spread out like the dual LBX-10). Granted, the cycle time is faster on those LBX-10's, but then there's the uncased torso ammo issue you mentioned.

Basically, unless that D is up against a total noob it's going to be relatively even fight, possibly leaning toward the DDC. His opponent would be faster, more agile, able to torso twist faster to spread the damage more and has more pinpoint firepower....in other words, everything this topic is complaining about when it comes to large mechs that move too fast and sacrifice too little for it.

Apparently I should have included [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in my post.

[LastPaladin]

Doctor Proctor, on 19 December 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Huh? That was sarcasm there...

Sorry man. The first half of my post was a reply to someone else (I was the guy who posted the DDC build). When you post two replies in a row, this crazy forum lumps them into one single post.

[Hillslam]

OP makes title "reduce all classes"
OP means "make assaults gimped"
OP is smoking crack

[Doctor Proctor]

LastPaladin, on 19 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Sorry man. The first half of my post was a reply to someone else (I was the guy who posted the DDC build). When you post two replies in a row, this crazy forum lumps them into one single post.

No worries.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Anyways here's what I consider the problem:

70 ton Orion
Max Speed: 86kph
Turning: 55.03 deg/s

50 ton Hunchback
Max Speed: 98kph
Turning: 63.06 deg/s

30 ton Spider
Max Speed: 169kph
Turning: 108.92 deg/s


Notice how the Hunchback doesn't fall exactly in between the Orion and Spider for max speed and turning? Mediums should be going ~120kph max speed with ~80 deg/s turning

So are these various setups Class based, L/M/H/A or chassis weight based. Where would the 55t or 65t Mechs fit in and be configured so they too are different?

[Almond Brown]

Mr 144, on 18 December 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Considering my earlier post got my purrty pics right from there....what's your point?

You showed purrty pics. I showed the Link so folks could make their own purrty pics. You don't want me to share a great resource with others? You hording Smurfy's data? You trolling me?

wt*

[Almond Brown]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 December 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

I thought we were all in agreement on making mechs fly for up to 6 minutes and letting them jet-strafe

Let's all vote to have a Mech made called the "Harrier JJ". 90 Tons, 4 Energy, 2 Ballistic, and 4 Missile and 12 JJ's.

[Khobai]

Quote

Though, it COULD be argued that the reason that it doesn't fall directly between the Orion and the Spider is because of its intended design role (ie, being a slow heavy weapons platform designed for heavy urban combat environments)

I understand what youre saying. But heres the thing: how is it fair to enforce the hunchbacks role of being slow? when jenners arnt slow like theyre supposed to be? or when jagermechs have way more armor than they should? Other mechs arnt subject to their canon limitations, so why should the hunchback be?

Hunchbacks and other mediums need to go 120kph or theyre just not competitive. More than that though, they need to be able to go that speed without having to spend excessive tonnage into their engines. Thats why every weight class should have their own skill tree, so mediums can get that extra bit of speed through their skill tree, rather than reducing their tonnage further by upping their max engines.

It makes absolutely no sense to have light mechs go 150-170kph, while mediums go 90-100kph, and heavies go 70-80kph. Mediums have got to have a max speed that falls halfway in between lights and heavies. Its the only way theyll ever be competitive.

Edited by Khobai, 19 December 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Khobai, you're wasting your time. A large number run Assaults/Heavies to the exclusion of anything else and won't accept that they are too agile.

[Khobai]

Quote

Khobai, you're wasting your time.

Probably. But ive got nothing better to do at work. Gotta be here anyway

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Probably. But ive got nothing better to do at work. Gotta be here anyway

Heh, I tried working while at work once, but it didn't work out - I just got more work!

[Trauglodyte]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

I understand what youre saying. But heres the thing: how is it fair to enforce the hunchbacks role of being slow? when jenners arnt slow like theyre supposed to be? or when jagermechs have way more armor than they should? Other mechs arnt subject to their canon limitations, so why should the hunchback be?

Hunchbacks and other mediums need to go 120kph or theyre just not competitive. More than that though, they need to be able to go that speed without having to spend excessive tonnage into their engines. Thats why every weight class should have their own skill tree, so mediums can get that extra bit of speed through their skill tree, rather than reducing their tonnage further by upping their max engines.

It makes absolutely no sense to have light mechs go 150-170kph, while mediums go 90-100kph, and heavies go 70-80kph. Mediums have got to have a max speed that falls halfway in between lights and heavies. Its the only way theyll ever be competitive.

I'm with you, Khobai. Its why the whole concept of the engine formula is one of the worst mistakes that PGI ever made. With one quick implementation of bad coding, they destroyed the very flavor of every mech that FASA ever created. The whole point of the mechs in the BT universe, even if you had multiple different mechs with the same weapons on the same weight tonnage, was to differentiate it by way of different speeds, JJs, etc. The stock TT Jenner went 119 KPH w/ JJs while the stock TT Cicada went 130 KPH. While 5 tons seperated them (I have no idea how much armor each has stock), they're essentially seperated by JJs. YET, with max engines, they both go the same exact speed. Everyone, with the exception of the completely blind and dumb, will agree that JJs are beyond broken in terms of agility and the ability to change direction and target vectors. But, the poor Cicada still get screwed because it isn't designed with JJs in mind.

I swear, if I could, I'd go back in time and pay the designer to go with stock engine speed + 15% as max. Doing that opens up things and at least makes this current sub-discussion end because now we're talking about different mechs going different speeds for different reasons.



PS> Lights (Locust, Spider, Cicada) were designed to go fast to actually scout. Light Hunters (Commandos and Jenners) were designed to be almost as fast so that they could try to catch up and do their job. The Scouts gave up weapons for speed while the Hunters gave up speed for weapons. That is called balance. In MW:O, nobody trades anything except now you have the secondary option of dropping HSs for JJs but that isn't an issue because there isn't a heat pentalty.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 19 December 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm with you, Khobai. Its why the whole concept of the engine formula is one of the worst mistakes that PGI ever made.

Yeah. The problem with full customization is that theres no reason to even play certain mechs because other mechs can do the same thing better. Like Jagermechs are better than most other heavies... even though Jagermechs are supposed to have practically no armor and be second-line mechs. MWO lets them have full armor which is just wrong.

[Bront]

Sandpit, on 10 December 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

It doesn't though. Period. Assault mechs cannot keep up with a light.
Whether it's twisting speed, twisting arc, or movement speed.

I have no problems tracking a light in my Stalker unless they get close enough to face hug or circle me at the very minimum distance, which is usually hard if I'm near cover. The idea is to reduce tracking speed a bit so that lights can circle from a bit further out, giving them more than just a 50 meter range where they can be fast and effectively outmaneuver assaults.

[Hoaggie]

Artgathan, on 18 December 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0dafcf23e0abbae

Harder, better, faster, stronger.

Good luck having less ammo, I think I killed 2 of those in one match yesterday

[Hoaggie]

Darth Bane001, on 18 December 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

*This*

A very valid point. I've seen awesome's run at 80 kph I think it's called, but it had very little armor. Decent weaponry though but got pretty hot.

They need to add more gameplay like collisions or maybe even environmental damage like lets say rock chunks coming off if you shoot at a mountain side or mound of rock over an enemy mech perhaps some of the rocks nad dislodge and do damage or cause the mech to stall from having stuff blocking their path.

There are tons of things that could be put in this game to make it more interesting and fun but these devs are more interested in demanding tons of money on mechs that wont be balanced or fun till a few years from now, and thats even if it's still online.

Some of us remember when they had collisions and knockdowns as part of the game, back before ghost heat, before the missile nerf; in the days when IFF tags didn’t penetrate ECM and people had to pilot their mechs from the inside.

[Mr 144]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

I understand what youre saying. But heres the thing: how is it fair to enforce the hunchbacks role of being slow? when jenners arnt slow like theyre supposed to be? or when jagermechs have way more armor than they should? Other mechs arnt subject to their canon limitations, so why should the hunchback be?

Hunchbacks and other mediums need to go 120kph or theyre just not competitive. More than that though, they need to be able to go that speed without having to spend excessive tonnage into their engines. Thats why every weight class should have their own skill tree, so mediums can get that extra bit of speed through their skill tree, rather than reducing their tonnage further by upping their max engines.

It makes absolutely no sense to have light mechs go 150-170kph, while mediums go 90-100kph, and heavies go 70-80kph. Mediums have got to have a max speed that falls halfway in between lights and heavies. Its the only way theyll ever be competitive.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 19 December 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Khobai, you're wasting your time. A large number run Assaults/Heavies to the exclusion of anything else and won't accept that they are too agile.

Not at all...I cut my teeth on the HBK back in CB and still bear special love to the perfect 4SP. I'm a natural Heavy/assault pilot, but I don't much care for the current assaults (or heavies). I think you'll find most "good" assault pilots love mediums as well...it's lights we have an aversion to...too much hinky jinky for our taste.

I do have to admit that using the 4SP in my examples is a bit of a cheat, as it is the "perfect" mech. You just can't beat the range of articulation, and given that...it is, and always shall be a true "pilot's mech". Since the 'pult nerf, no other chassis comes remotely close to it's agility, slow (light compared) speed be damned. Other Mediums have JJs going for them which vastly adds to agility, but "by the numbers", the 4SP has no peer. Perhaps the Nova will de-throne it finally......

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Up until the Phoenix pack I only owned hunchies - they fitted my ideal until my favourite mech came out (the Shawk).