625 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

Hey, I haven't played MWO for a while. Gimme a reason or two why I should start up again. Frankly, my reason from stopping is that I'm really disappointed that the Clan mechs have become IS mechs with different skins and lasers.

[Dawnstealer]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

Finally - yes.

This is my response to most of the threads whining about the Clans. The Clans are SUPPOSED to be overpowered. It's just that, one-on-one, with a player controlling the action directly instead of random dice rolls, there's just not a good way to balance them.

10v12 or less would do it. If the Clan players would actually role-play correctly and fight one-on-one, and bid away most of their attack forces, I'd totally be game for making Clan mechs as incredible they were in lore...

but...

Show me the player that will nerf themselves, and I'll show you a fantasy.

So they have to do it in the weapon mechanics.

[Void Angel]

[Orkdung]

No need to nerf Clan tech per say. Just make them Stars (Not Lances!), that would fix a lot. 10 vs. 12. Done.

PGI has stated they can't do that (can't figure it out?). Its the 21st century, get it done! (Wait... its the 31st!!)

.

[Void Angel]

But if you can't handle that the Clans are roughly equal to the Inner Sphere on a 1 v 1 basis, you're still in the wrong place. As has been explained ad nauseum, that's the only plausible way to balance a game where one player pilots one 'mech at a time - and it's certainly the way that PGI chose to balance it.

The game itself is good, and getting better. They've reworked maps, implemented new systems, and development overall has continued to be much more rapid since they jettisoned IGP. The game's Steam reviews are currently sitting at Very Positive, despite a deliberate sabotage campaign mounted by some of the inconsolably angry people who got themselves (and everyone else) banned from talking about MWO on the Star Citizen forums. It's good enough to play now, and it's getting better - I recommend trying it again!

However, if not being able to use MWO as a LARP accessory to relive the glory days of yore is a hard stop for you, save yourself the aggravation and move on to another game.

[Vanguard319]

I agree that IS players should always have a numerical advantage, whereas the clans should have a technology advantage. It is possible to make an interesting game through asymmetric balancing after all.

[Alan Hicks]

Gremlich Johns, on 15 December 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Hey, I haven't played MWO for a while. Gimme a reason or two why I should start up again. Frankly, my reason from stopping is that I'm really disappointed that the Clan mechs have become IS mechs with different skins and lasers.

No reason at all for you to play MWO, since each day that passes, the former difference of IS mechs and Clan mechs continues to fade. Thank IS whinners for that, and the constant idea to "balance" all battlemechs (nerfing good mechs or giving supposely inferior technology unforgiving quirks)

People should have known that when playing a mechwarrior game you are playing an unbalanced one, but what did they do?

Favor the whinners and distant the game from the original lore.


We are not longer playing a real Mechwarrior game, not with real faithful references to BattleTech. We are just continuing with something that appears like MechWarrior. A different version of it.

That does not mean the game is ruined or is not still appealing. It´s just no longer realistic. This game reminds you of mechwarrior, because it has all and more about it, except for how it should actually be the playing experience.The days when clan tech was indeed superior, are surely gone.

[Famous]

Alan Hicks, on 15 December 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

No reason at all for you to play MWO, since each day that passes, the former difference of IS mechs and Clan mechs continues to fade. Thank IS whinners for that, and the constant idea to "balance" all battlemechs (nerfing good mechs or giving supposely inferior technology unforgiving quirks)

People should have known that when playing a mechwarrior game you are playing an unbalanced one, but what did they do?

Favor the whinners and distant the game from the original lore.


We are not longer playing a real Mechwarrior game, not with real faithful references to BattleTech. We are just continuing with something that appears like MechWarrior. A different version of it.

That does not mean the game is ruined or is not still appealing. It´s just no longer realistic. This game reminds you of mechwarrior, because it has all and more about it, except for how it should actually be the playing experience.The days when clan tech was indeed superior, are surely gone.

No longer realistic? At what point have Clan players offered zellbriggen (sp?) at the start of a CW game? How many of you have had your digital avatars executed for failing to follow Clan laws? Hell if you're not Tier 1 you must be a freebirth scum who stole a Bloodnamed warriors Mech so what are you even doing playing?

[Solink]

I think for CW at least it should be 10 vs 12 since clans fought in two groups of 5. in just the quick play 12 v 12. Though I wish more clan players would behave as clanners instead of playing as IS in clan mechs.

[Rac]

Every elitist in this thread cracks me up. You want your clan tech so you can rip casual players apart and tell yourself how awesome you are. The simple fact of the matter is that the elitist in this thread don't pay enough money to support PGI and it's those same casual players you hate that pay the salaries of PGI. Coming here and listening to the rants about how it deviates from Canon, how it's breaking the game and PGI is going to go out of business because of that never fails to amuse me.

Nobody wants to play a game where they can't win. And the solution that people should just buy clan tech....yea....everyone playing clans won't break the game at all....LOL.

[Vanguard319]

Dawnstealer, on 15 December 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Finally - yes.

This is my response to most of the threads whining about the Clans. The Clans are SUPPOSED to be overpowered. It's just that, one-on-one, with a player controlling the action directly instead of random dice rolls, there's just not a good way to balance them.

10v12 or less would do it. If the Clan players would actually role-play correctly and fight one-on-one, and bid away most of their attack forces, I'd totally be game for making Clan mechs as incredible they were in lore...

but...

Show me the player that will nerf themselves, and I'll show you a fantasy.

So they have to do it in the weapon mechanics.

As far as bidding goes, what if you offered clan players greater reward for using less resources than expected?

An example:

10 v12 is the normal expected balance for a clan vs IS battle, I as a clan player propose we can kill the freebirths, break their toys, and take their world with only eight mechs, another clan player mocks my caution, then bids that we can do it with only five mechs. No one is willing to bid lower so the fight becomes 5 v 10, with the bidder as the unit leader. If the unit succeeds, they receive the usual C-bills for the victory, plus a modifier relative to how many enemy mechs they had to fight, in this case, a X2 C-bill modifier for being outnumbered 2 to 1. In addition, the leader would receive an additional faction bonus for successfully leading the attack within his/her bid.

If the bid was too low, or the leader is killed in the match, the clan force can call reinforcements no greater than the last bid, in this case, three more mechs, with me as commander, with victory earning a reduced modifier, and faction bonus. the two players not selected for the bid, or the reinforcements would immediately be allowed to que for another match.

This would encourage clan players to take more risks, in exchange for greater reward. They would benefit greatly if they bid well, and are all but guaranteed to get their asses kicked if they bid poorly. It would also allow higher tier clan players to play a more balanced match against lower tier IS players as bidding would leave them outnumbered. (because let's face it: there is absolutely nothing satisfying about constant one-sided pug stomping.)

[AztecD]

clan 10-12 is

i dont know how hard that is

[Lyoto Machida]

For CW, what if PGI kept it 12 vs 12 but gave the IS a tonnage advantage and gave the Clans back their superior tech? Maybe a 240 ton Clan drop deck but a 360 ton IS one? Something like that...

Rac, on 15 December 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

Every elitist in this thread cracks me up. You want your clan tech so you can rip casual players apart and tell yourself how awesome you are. The simple fact of the matter is that the elitist in this thread don't pay enough money to support PGI and it's those same casual players you hate that pay the salaries of PGI. Coming here and listening to the rants about how it deviates from Canon, how it's breaking the game and PGI is going to go out of business because of that never fails to amuse me.

Nobody wants to play a game where they can't win. And the solution that people should just buy clan tech....yea....everyone playing clans won't break the game at all....LOL.

Look at what you guys did...even a Founder with 7 posts had to come out of the woodwork and chime in.

It's amazing that some people are so short sighted. Of course people want their Clan tech without any drawbacks...they're just not thinking about the long term health of the game.

[RobertWiley]

10 vs 12 sounds about right...after all this is a numbers game. Put IS mechs on one side and Clan on the other even when there is singles in the game. But this should only carry over to the campaigns and tournaments, not one match games.

[Rick Rollington]

As an Inner Sphere Player, I can tell you right now that I would either quit the game, or go to Clan, if Clans regained their Superior Tech.
Why? Have you ever played World of Tanks, with their Tier System? Ever been matched up to a Tier VII T29 in your Tier V T1? Bounced shells off that thing, no matter where you hit it? And then exploded in one, maybe two, hits? That is what you're proposing. Match, after match, after match, of Tier Vs getting their asses handed to them by Tier VIIs, unless they can manage to somehow wear down the VIIs.
Now, I get that the mechanics are not the same. For example, Clan mechs don't bounce damage. BUT, if they were unnerfed, they would deal horrendous amounts of damage at long range. 15 PPFLD ERPPCs spring to mind, as do the Original ER Large Lasers (I used a DWF with 8 of them to melt enemy mechs at 900m, before they got nerfed).
9 times out of 10 they would kill the Inner Sphere mechs before they could get into range. And when they DID get into range of their weapons, they'd encounter AC40s that cost (weight/crit) as much as AC10s. They'd encounter pulse lasers that did more damage for similar heat. SRM racks that are so light, they are a supplementary weapon to the Ballistics and Lasers.
In short, the Clans would completely dominate.
Now, the proposed fix is to have Inner Sphere have more numbers. But even then the main reason that worked was due to the Clan Bidding and Zellbrigen systems, which lets face it, NO Clan player will honor.

In an RTS or TBS game, where each player controls a team, the numerical balancing works. But in a game where each player controls a single unit, with one life, and they are expected to die horribly so they can land a little bit of damage on a superior enemy that one of their teammates may hopefully take down, that system is not going to work. Some people will take up the challenge, but the majority of games will be Clan vs Clan. At which point, you may as well have just had the balancing in the first place.

Now don't get me wrong. Some of the Nerfs are overdone. I feel sorry for the Summoner (I love that mech). And some of IS buffs are over done. But unless they introduce some convoluted systems to provide alternate matchmaking (no more mixed matches, for example), or find a way to enforce Zellbrigen (unable to damage a mech that isn't "your" target), I see no way they could balance Superior Clan mechs in a way that would still be fun for the majority of Inner Sphere pilots.

Just my opinion, but for the long term benefit of the game, I believe PGI have chosen the correct path. Especially since most new players will end up in Inner Sphere chassis first, and we don't want them losing interest in the game due to insurmountable odds, before they get a chance to be hooked.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

Having originally come from the old days of the original DOS Battletech games (Crescent Hawk's Inception / Revenge) and the first Mechwarrior games (1 & 2), at this point many posters are correct that this is no longer a true-to-canon Mechwarrior / Battletech game:

1) Clan mechs & tech were ALWAYS OP and IS was always inferior, however, the original solution to that was to restrict the Clan group sizes (IS lance vs smaller Clan star) and try to force extra "traditions" on them to curb the OP effect. The superiority came from the Clan founders having absconded with all the (older but superior) Star League technology, leaving a vacuum which the IS never recovered from. The Clans then refined and improved it to surpass the founding tech.

2) Clan mechs, at least according to MW2 (which was produced with FASA), were essentially blank slates where the only definite restrictions were the frame type and tonnage limit. There were no fixed hard points for weaponry because the original omni-mech system allowed for customization / swapping of everything from the engine to weapons, allowing you to field an LRM boat, laser vomit, bracket build, or anything you so desired, including installing jump jets on mechs which originally came without them (albeit they were very ineffective). I do like the "Omni-Pod" system, but it is still a partial fixed hardpoint restriction, different from what was already a quite better system in MW2.

3) IS mechs were essentially like laptop computers - you were pretty much stuck with the stock parts that came with the mech, with very little possibility of customization.

It is obvious from the last "performance patch" (read: clan nerf & IS buff) that PGI is quite blatantly catering to the IS contingent, and the main motivator is money, plain and simple:

What trial mech types do you get for quick play? IS
What trial mechs do you use for the Academy? IS
Which mechs are not only about half the price of the other side, but now have buffed bonuses and weapons? IS
Which mechs got not only an overall performance decrease, but also weapons with reduced range, damage, and increased heat? Clan

As an example: Clan "ER" (Extended Range) Lasers are now pitifully short, so much so that they should just be called "Clan's IS Basic Lasers"

It would seem to anyone who has played this game since Beta (which I have) that since a majority of the newbies or casuals who play Mechwarrior Online are purchasing IS mechs (because those are the better deals to fill your garage - why are there no Clan Mastery Bundles?) and then getting their butts whooped by Clan players (even after "The Great Nerfing"), PGI wants to keep & increase their revenue stream, so they will continue to give the "poor little rich babies" extra advantages simply so they won't stop playing (and buying). How long will it be before the IS mechs & weaponry are the real performance equivalent of what the Clans are supposed to have had when they first invaded? Why even differentiate at all? Why not just have a standard for each weapon type - ER Large Laser (no clan), PPC (no clan) - usable by both sides in both mechs? Why even have IS or Clan-exclusive mech chassis - why not one single Daishi / Dire Wolf for everyone? When is "balance" going to end up resulting in "complete homogeny"? Once it does, you'll still see IS players getting whooped by better-trained and organized Clan players, and they'll still be griping about it on the forums because they should be able to click a button and win since they paid so much...

This game is most definitely looking like it is going towards a real P2W (Pay to Win) model because IS newbies have already made it a P2W (Pay to Whine). As someone else said in one of the battles:

(Sung to the tune of Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries")
Nerf the Clans,
Nerf the Clans,
Nerf the Clans,
BUY I.S.!

Edited by Wilhelm Kerensky, 15 December 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[Rick Rollington]

While I agree that the nerfing of the Clans has probably been a little excessive, they do need to be brought to an equivalent power level of fully upgraded IS chassis.

The problem we have, is that some people want the Clan mechs to be outright superior. That is not healthy for the long term survival of this game. BUT, equivalent Power Level should not mean homogenised vanilla flavour for everyone.

Personally, I think Clans should have quirks that give them longer ranged, more powerful, but hotter, damage over time weapons. PPCs and Gauss would remain as PPFLD, of course. So, the ER Large Laser should be able to reach out to 800m before dropoff, but the duration should be 2secs (as an example). It should have a higher damage per tick, for a higher overall damage, but accuracy is key. And it should be hot as Hades to use.
For the poor performers amongst Clan, like the Summoner, weapon quirks should be used.

IS on the other hand, should have short burst, cooler running weapons (though Clans would have better sinks by comparison), which do more of their damage in a shorter period, but less damage at less range overall.
The poor performers amongst Inner Sphere Chassis could receive Armour, Structure, or Crit Reduction Quirks, to give them the durability they need to close to short range.

Now of course, not all IS weapons are in your face Brawler guns. The Gauss, PPCs, and ER Large Lasers would still be effective at Long Ranges, but not to the same extremes as Clan weapons.

In short, IS would run cooler, and deal damage faster and more precisely (tighter bursts, etc), but have a shorter range, and less overall damage. Clans would generate more heat, and deal damage over a longer period, but could reach out and touch people at great distances, and hit harder over time.
IS quirks for underperformers would focus on Defensive buffs. Clan Quirks for Underperformers would focus on Firepower buffs.

Again, just my opinion on how the two sides could be balanced, and yet play differently.

Edited by Rick Rollington, 15 December 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Wilhelm Kerensky]

Rick - What you're talking about is what I believe is called "asymmetric balancing", which would work well for helping to differentiate the flavors of the two main factions while still preserving a form of balance.

I just get tired of all the salty, whining newbie / casual (usually IS) players yelling about "Clan is OP" because they can't win by running to a spot and standing there in the open while trading fire with more experienced, tactically proficient, (mostly) Clan opponents (in already patch-crippled mechs) - I actually witness this in game where more than one of our PUGs in a light mech doesn't listen to commands, will run up to a flat expanse of the map, stand still, and proceed to get quickly recked by the heavier mechs with which he was attempting to trade shots. They usually run to the forums afterwards to whine about how good they think they are while really being mediocre at best, utterly terrible at least, and how their opponents technology was OP if it didn't match their own... This isn't to say that only Clan player groups are better-trained, as we got our butts handed to us a few times by IS-centric groups also, although a good number of those times were when we had PUGs with us against an organized 12-man group.

In the end, my concern is this: how far is PGI going to nerf or buff one side or the other in search of "balance" due to reckless, untrained casual players who don't (or won't) join a group in order to better themselves and end up getting those wins they want so badly?

I was just as terribad (and unimpressed with the game, which meant I played it very little and spent no money) before I joined up with my gaming group, and now I am having a ball and enjoying the game, finally believing it is worthy of an investment after all this time (since Closed Beta)! Because of them, I started investing in the game. I admit I am nowhere near the skill level of the long-time members, but my game has improved quite a bit in the small amount of time I've been training and fighting with them. I was immensely proud that the group because not only is it the most awesome bunch of guys to play with, but also consistently the top group, regardless of faction, and carried the Battle of Tukayyid (both times) to victory... even with our crippled Clan weaponry.

Why doesn't PGI make it so that mercs who want to fight real battles in CW are required to join or form their own units before they can side with a faction? Why can't units recruit in some type of a lobby or something? I think if newbies actually had the to join a unit and get trained in the better way to play Mechwarrior, I think we'd see less "QQ" in the forums and more "pew pew" in the game.

After all, if one group could still be victorious after a one-sided crippling "balance", then what is the real difference between that group and the whiners? Personal skill through training...

...and that can never be nerfed.

[Ace Selin]

The majority of people playing the game aren't die-hard lore fanatics (certainly not the ones coming from Steam) and so do not want to play inferior mechs (IS mechs) versus superior mechs (Clan mechs) . So the tech needs to be balanced evenly but with a different flavour, as PGI is doing. Otherwise all you would have is 5,000 Clan players versus the remaining 25 lore abiding IS players & the game is dead. All the bleater's who cant see that the tech needs to be balanced for the game to survive cant be helped or simply want OP mechs (in that case LOL).

[DaiAku]

It still seems like the majority of people who agree with PGI nerfing clans fundamentally do not understand what asymmetric balance is.