625 replies to this topic

[Blacksoul1987]

IqfishLP, on 10 December 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

So you are basically saying "screw every development we made, Clan Tech is the new thing"?

Why should we ever play IS then? The whole game would be senseless. Why throw rocks at each other if we can have grenades? Thats way more fun.

you misunderstand me. I do not want OP clan tech, I am only saying what will happen if clan tech is OP upon arrival. Everyone seems to think there will be loads of players willing to pilot IS mechs and get very few kills and a lot of deaths. I for one know that I will switch to clan if their tech is OP and i'm pretty sure most of my friends will as well.

[CyclonerM]

IqfishLP, on 10 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Simple Answer:

In a Hunchback IIC, With two ultra autocannons 20 (imagine only one AC40 Jager) I could smoke every mech on the field.

Pop out, shoot 40 pinpoint damage, wait 1 second, fire again.

Please dont tell me it would improve anything if you put 10 of these against 12 IS Assaults.

No cross-tech as it is supposed to be (at least in 3050). Bang! Problem solved. (i know there are other problems, but at least this should not be present).

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

It would be somehow a fail on an epic level when a Hunchback IIC become a top tier Mech.

Would they include in the game a 'Mech which is going to make millions of MechWarriors cry in rage designed for Solhama units?

Blacksoul1987, on 10 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

You should have the capability to do that with private lobbies. I'm just saying you don't need to do 12 IS mechs vs 8 clan mechs or anything like that cause if Clan tech is that much better there won't be enough IS pilots to justify wasting the resources on doing such a mode. If clan tech comes out that strong just change it to 10 vs 10 and both sides will have 2 stars, don't ask the devs to waste their time making an IS vs Clan mode if only a few people are gonna play IS.

Aff, but it is not for the 5-based organization itself, it is because they must respect at least this basic lore, considering that it will provide also a tool to help balance.

And why only a few are gonna play IS? They said they will mess with implement their own idea of Clan tech for MWO , so why are you all worried?

Nah, it does not matter that in the last weeks tons of good balance ideas have been proposed by me and many other people (and many of them are based on lore, because i stress again that Clan tech had its own drawbacks).

[Tom Sawyer]

I wonder if this game should be "split" for the first year or so. If you are a clan mech pilot you only fight other clan mechs. Before the invasion the clans spared constantly to determine right of attack, where and how.

Then after say 6 months start allowing the IS to confont the clan in controlled matches.

Then fullbore invasion. Pug on Pug and howls of overpowered cheesemunch

[Karl Streiger]

Tom Sawyer, on 10 December 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I wonder if this game should be "split" for the first year or so. If you are a clan mech pilot you only fight other clan mechs. Before the invasion the clans spared constantly to determine right of attack, where and how.

Then after say 6 months start allowing the IS to confont the clan in controlled matches.

Then fullbore invasion. Pug on Pug and howls of overpowered cheesemunch

Well could work somehow when they make it this way - and they can stick to the timeline
full invasion restarts in November 3051(2014)

[Screech]

Could someone please list the PvP games that use uneven drop sizes as a balance mechanism, I am not aware of them and I would like to educate myself on how this possibly would be successful. I am not looking for any ones thoughts on how to do it, rather the games that currently do it.

[sarelk]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

i have posted this same exact response as well... i am all for clans staying their horriifcially devestating selves... i will not... for me want to ever play clans... i love fighting as the underdog and am not intrested in clan tech etc... I love the idea that 8 IS mechs drop and end up fighting a star (5) clan mechs only for it to be an even match nearly due to their technological supreiorty...

when looking at things as they are... there are several changes from basic BT rules and lore... but for the most part things are intact... and this is coming from a real traditionalist who took too much time to get into this game b/c of worries of its keeping with tradtion.

by changing the clanners tech to be more 'flavorful' and less 'powerful' will really change this... that and letting anyone and everyone play them.... i also think we should be either IS or Clan... with varying factions (FRR, Comstar, Davion, vs Clan Smoke jag, ghost bear etc) within the groups... It will just be silly if i drop with two daishi and i am running around in my blackjack...

possibly having to have modules to incorporate clan tech would be intresting but limited... dunno... ok enough.. here is another unheard voice of the poeple... May the FRR stand forever..

[HugoStiglitz]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

No cross-tech as it is supposed to be (at least in 3050). Bang! Problem solved. (i know there are other problems, but at least this should not be present).

The Hunchback IIC is not cross-tech. It's a clan upgrade of the Hunchback, he gave the stock variant of it. This is why Clan Tech is being redesigned.

[Woska]

I think that nerfing the clan tech to IS levels would be a mistake. Of course, there does need to be some mechanism in place to balance the match. But I think you're getting seriously carried away with 5 vs 12. Clan tech is better, but it's not that much better. Clan mechs have a tendency to being fast and lightly armoured for their weight. Yes, there are exceptions, and people will adjust the mechs as they see fit. I think a 10 vs 12 would be a good place to start, and if that's not balanced, shift to 5 vs 8.

Some of the advantages of the clans in the table top don't translate well in MWO. There's no accuracy bonus from better pilot stats. Targeting computers are irrelevant in this game. Also, if they find a way to enforce Clan rules of engagement, with single combat, the IS players can gang up and smack someone for an early advantage.

[Voivode]

Here's a thought on how to balance clans.

1) Let the weapons be OP, that's what they were

2) Omnimechs had weapon pods allowing any hardpoint to feature any weapon type. Do this.

3) Omnimechs could not easily change armor or engines. Restrict Clan mechs to the engine/armor layout they come with.

4) Make clanners fight outnumbered.

5) If "honor points" replace cbills for purchasing clan items, enforce clan rules. Kill assists will get you negative honor points. Focusing fire will reduce the amount of expendable currency earned for everyone doing the focusing.

[CyclonerM]

HugoStiglitz, on 10 December 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

The Hunchback IIC is not cross-tech. It's a clan upgrade of the Hunchback, he gave the stock variant of it. This is why Clan Tech is being redesigned.

I know, i was talking about the 2xUAC20 Jager he was predicting

I also said that i do not think that second-line Clan BattleMechs will be in the game.

[DjPush]

Can clan weapons and tech be used in IS chassis? Wouldn't that fix the problem? It may not be lore but what about this game is?

[pbiggz]

DjPush, on 10 December 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Can clan weapons and tech be used in IS chassis? Wouldn't that fix the problem? It may not be lore but what about this game is?

Once again, NO! Even if mixed tech is allowed inner sphere tech will be totally obsolete. That is bad. It costed pgi money to make IS tech and i promise you they WILL NOT invalidate it with clan tech.

Get the idea out of your brains gentlemen. It's quite simply not happening.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Once again, NO! Even if mixed tech is allowed inner sphere tech will be totally obsolete. That is bad. It costed pgi money to make IS tech and i promise you they WILL NOT invalidate it with clan tech.

Get the idea out of your brains gentlemen. It's quite simply not happening.

Exactly! It would be even worse than having a bit OP Clan tech.

[pbiggz]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Exactly! It would be even worse than the same as having OP Clan tech.

fixed that for you

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 10 December 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

fixed that for you

Meh. It would be worse because at least OP Clan tech is somewhat closer to the novels and the tabletop

[C E Dwyer]

DI3T3R, on 09 December 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

On the one side, we have the IS-Mechs we know and love/hate/both.

Then, one day Clan-Mechs get introduced. They are faster, more flexible, more durable, have more firepower. Real killers. Everybody will want to have one, so their use has to be restricted or discouraged in some way.

But why do this with nerfing them? The Clans always fight outnumbered, why not go the extreme in this one?

10vs12? Why not 5vs12 or 5vs16 or 10vs18?
If people want to play Clanners, why not make them fight hordes upon hordes of inferior and dishonorable enemies until it's no longer funny?

A Cluster against a Regimental Combat Team? Outnumbered in Mechs 1:2 and outnumbered overall 1:18?
Why not?

Well not everyone wants them or loves them.

but nerfing them was the only way they could produce these things in numbers in the hope that people buy the clan phoenix pack in large numbers..

sorry you ain't getting your point and click mech but as they say, thats life..

[990Dreams]

The point of clan tech:
To be a more expensive to buy, harder to earn/capture (CW), better alternative to IS tech. Deviate from this and you have deviated from BattleTech's goal and more than 6 games before this one (let's be honest here folks, this is what they intended with the clans [and if it wasn't then they should have thought of the repercussions of even adding them at all]) (yes I know that they have deviated a lot but who wants to take it further and start nerfing clan tech?). The rarity/hard-to-make(ness) of the tech already compensates for the op(ness) of it.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 10 December 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[KalebFenoir]

Voivode, on 10 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Here's a thought on how to balance clans.

1) Let the weapons be OP, that's what they were

2) Omnimechs had weapon pods allowing any hardpoint to feature any weapon type. Do this.

3) Omnimechs could not easily change armor or engines. Restrict Clan mechs to the engine/armor layout they come with.

4) Make clanners fight outnumbered.

5) If "honor points" replace cbills for purchasing clan items, enforce clan rules. Kill assists will get you negative honor points. Focusing fire will reduce the amount of expendable currency earned for everyone doing the focusing.

I remember in another topic somewhere, I suggested the idea of 'honor points' when it came to Clan mechs. Like, you had to meet a minimum requirement of points to be able to pilot a particular mech, and then after that it's more honor points to get better gear for it (like you wouldn't have access to higher-tier weapons like UAC higher than the UAC5 until you had say, 4500 honor points banked). The points wouldn't deplete, but each kind of weapon would have its own additional requirement. So you couldn't just drive a Mad Cat covered in ER PPCs and Ultras out of the gate; you would have to earn enough to pilot the Prime mode (standard template that'd appear in shop), and then to get better gear you'd have to earn more points for that.

Kinda like you're gaining respect in your Clan, so they're letting you have better stuff to work with.

[RavensScar]

First off, I'm sure PGI have already stated that uneven drop number are not going to happen. Repeating that argument every three posts is becoming a little pointless.

I don't understand why people are so wedded to the tabletop numbers for Clan weapons. Look at it this way - it's very unlikely that PGI will deviate from the cannon Clan 'Mech loadouts. Let's take everyone's favourite Timber Wolf for example:

75 tons
80+ kph
Jump Jets
12 tons Ferro-Fibrous Armour
15 Double Heat Sinks

Armament (Prime):
2 ER Large Lasers
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 Medium Pulse Laser
2 LRM 20s
2 Machine Guns

Right, so this thing moves as fast as a Shadow Hawk, has more armour than a Cataphract and Jump Jets.

Even if you take the current IS values for those weapons, this 'Mech will be able to outgun most assaults.

Unless PGI make Clan weapons into pea-shooters, these 'Mechs are going to be bloody terrifying! They simply do not need Clan weapon stats to make them fit the fluff. They're already faster, more maneuverable, and more heavily armed than any IS 'mech in the game, even one fully customised with every upgrade available.

[Jakob Knight]

Tom Sawyer, on 10 December 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I wonder if this game should be "split" for the first year or so. If you are a clan mech pilot you only fight other clan mechs. Before the invasion the clans spared constantly to determine right of attack, where and how.

Then after say 6 months start allowing the IS to confont the clan in controlled matches.

Then fullbore invasion. Pug on Pug and howls of overpowered cheesemunch

I think any idea of splitting the game went down in flames with the 3PV fiasco. If they will not split the queues for such an important issue and after promising in the strongest terms they would do so, I think any suggestion of a split of any kind is dead on arrival. Especially since it would bring into question why such a split was suddenly acceptable when it was not before.

DjPush, on 10 December 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Can clan weapons and tech be used in IS chassis? Wouldn't that fix the problem? It may not be lore but what about this game is?

Clan weapons and equipment -can- be used on IS chassis, as illustrated by such mechs as the WHM-6R(C) Warhammer (a 3025 Warhammer retrofitted with Clan weapons and equipment). Such cases were only done when such mechs were captured by Clan forces and strictly for second-line deployment (the Clans waste nothing, let alone fully functioning battlemechs).

However, the issue is one of game balance, not capability. In addition, that answer is based on the original material, which the Devs only follow when it suits their own purposes. The Clans in MWO are not the same as the Clans in Battletech, though the two will share many similarities. The issue is that the Clans have to be equal but not superior to the mechs and factions already in the game due to side balancing and competition setup.

Most of all, just allowing all units in the game to use Clantech would mean everyone would be using Clantech, negating any benefit to having it and resulting in the exact same setup that is in place now. There would be no point in putting in Clan equipment as in the original material into the game. Thus, it is in the interest of the game to avoid spending time and resources developing super-weapons that will end up either destabilizing the game or being reduced to the new average for gameplay.

Right now, the best thing that could happen would be that Clan faction players get exclusive use of battlemech models configured as the classic Omnimech models they identify with so strongly, but using the same technology as every other unit in the game. This preserves game balance, allows Clan players their identity, and saves a ton of coding new lines of math to further bug the game even more than it is now. The downside is that Clan players would have to give up their IS battlemechs in compensation, so I don't see this happening. Rather, more realistic is that Clan mechs will simply be general-availability units using common technology, as this is the simplest way to introduce them without the host of game problems other solutions would introduce.